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  • #101
  • Aug 6, 2011 2:37am Aug 6, 2011 2:37am
You just did the same thing twice.....You didn't give one solution.

You don't know poor. You know complaining and no solutions.

Open heart surgery is very painful. It also makes for a better life in the future.

This is what happens when you keep borrowing. The bankers love it.

http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/20...economic-coup/

Your talking about things you have even read about. This is why the Greek people are revolting. Now your starting to really sound bad.

Give up your hate and you won't feel so poor anymore.

Quoting Cypr3ss
Are we even talk in the same language?????? where have i blamed the tea fuggers for the last 100 years?

The hard line approach to the the debt ceiling taken by the republicans in drawing it down to the wire when it was known in advance for 6 months created a situation of doubt that cause the panic. the debt ceiling was raised many times in the past with such furor now all of sudden it becomes the issue to weigh in on...why not be vehement when bush was raising it once every 2 months.

i hear lots of people talking about future and their children...
  • #102
  • Aug 6, 2011 2:58am Aug 6, 2011 2:58am
Quoting cugir321
You just did the same thing twice.....You didn't give one solution.

You don't know poor. You know complaining and no solutions.

Open heart surgery is very painful. It also makes for a better life in the future.

This is what happens when you keep borrowing. The bankers love it.

http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/20...economic-coup/

Your talking about things you have even read about. This is why the Greek people are revolting. Now your starting to really sound bad.

Give up your hate and...
What do you have against poor people? dude you just compared starving a couple million people to open heart surgery.....lets purge em all!!! IDIOT
  • #103
  • Aug 6, 2011 3:01am Aug 6, 2011 3:01am
Quoting cugir321
You just did the same thing twice.....You didn't give one solution.

You don't know poor. You know complaining and no solutions.

Open heart surgery is very painful. It also makes for a better life in the future.

This is what happens when you keep borrowing. The bankers love it.

http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/20...economic-coup/

Your talking about things you have even read about. This is why the Greek people are revolting. Now your starting to really sound bad.

Give up your hate and...
simple solution for americans: take your troops home. There you got a big junk of expenditure that would go away.

And a more complex solution but only solution for every country that is in miserable shape. Get a task force of restructuring experts and try to restructure entire countries.

Then a default might be avoided.
  • #104
  • Aug 6, 2011 3:25am Aug 6, 2011 3:25am
There you go...now there's a solution. He doesn't have a clue about what he's arguing about. The problem is....the bankers don't want things to change and they pull the political strings....Like Paulson did the last time we were on the brink of collaspe. They want us to raise the debt ceiling.

All he knows are words like idiot, stupid, dumb....you know, solution words.

And he won't take the time to find out about Greece because he doesn't care about anyone but himself.

Very few people will watch the video....nothing will change. We will eventually default or give up our assests....our country. But they are afraid. They know we are not Greece. We can revolt with our own weapons...via the teeth of freedom called, the second amendment....not smoke bombs. That's why the UN, at this moment is trying to force an international weapons agreement on the USA. Obama supports it. The question is why? The founding father got it right. They lived through or heard the lesson of uncontrolled power in the 1600's from their parents and grandparents. These days we don't have a clue and history usually repeats itself when we forget.

The people need to clean house and read history instead of arguing a point from ignorance.

Quoting Custos
simple solution for americans: take your troops home. There you got a big junk of expenditure that would go away.

And a more complex solution but only solution for every country that is in miserable shape. Get a task force of restructuring experts and try to restructure entire countries.

Then a default might be avoided.
  • #105
  • Aug 6, 2011 3:59am Aug 6, 2011 3:59am
Quoting cugir321
There you go...now there's a solution. He doesn't have a clue about what he's arguing about. The problem is....the bankers don't want things to change and they pull the political strings....Like Paulson did the last time we were on the brink of collaspe. They want us to raise the debt ceiling.

All he knows are words like idiot, stupid, dumb....you know, solution words.

And he won't take the time to find out about Greece because he doesn't care about anyone but himself.

Very few people will watch the video....nothing will change. We will...
Well, I think in the end if the USA defaults, then the biggest creditor China will work out a deal with the US requiring them to give up some companies, know-how or resources or require them to sign a 100 year trade treaty, then slash the debt and only require to pay part back in the future.
  • #106
  • Aug 6, 2011 5:02am Aug 6, 2011 5:02am
US debt downgrade by S&P comes in the trail of the debt mess the US Congress made.

The downgrade has a bigger figurative meaning than t the practical one. Of course the US will pay its debt.

But messages were clear, hopefully, to all politicians in the world: you do not mess with important economic things and get away with it. You do not make a political circus out of important things and get away with it.

There are people watching you, there are people rating your actions.

I'd like to see the American people flocking into Capitol protesting to those bullshitters that made a debt ceiling increase (which happened tens of times before without fanfarre) their political agendas rather than the country's agenda.

It wasn't only a punishment to the US, but a message to the whole world. I hope Europe gets the message. I hope Brazil learns from it (we were recently upgraded to AA).
  • #107
  • Aug 10, 2011 4:44am Aug 10, 2011 4:44am
Quoting kibescorp
I really couldn't care less about the economic future of this country.

All I care about is confirming that the USD will indeed continue its downward spiral against all major currencies so that that remains the long-term trend and I can continue selling USD/CAD and USD/JPY on upticks. I think this debt limit increase will go a long way in more or less ensuring that in the long run.

As far as the economic future of this country goes, you reap what you sow in this universe. So there's never any reason for sympathy or anything of the like. This...
I care: a good economy is always in our best interests. Abundant wealth means more opportunity for the forward thinking. Business is like a house of cards, the ones that take the most weight at the bottom. When these structurally significant ones start to fall, then others that you'd never imagine will follow. Like I said, It's certainly worth caring about.

I have to agree with the second half of your post, though. Selfishness is a virtue, and those who don't practice it don't posses any purpose of their own.
Living the adventure in my head.
  • #108
  • Aug 10, 2011 5:05am Aug 10, 2011 5:05am
Somebody needs to tell Leonlorenzo all that cash he's planning to acculate won't be worth anything when they're done printing. You can't even use it for tablet paper. We'll pay 'em back...they're not going to default but everyone will still suffer. We should default...that way we could rebuild and our kids won't pay the price when we're gone. Who needs fat kids anyway. We spent it...we need to pay the bill one way or another.



Quoting Leonlorenzo
I care: a good economy is always in our best interests. Abundant wealth means more opportunity for the forward thinking. Business is like a house of cards, the ones that take the most weight at the bottom. When these structurally significant ones start to fall, then others that you'd never imagine will follow. Like I said, It's certainly worth caring about.

I have to agree with the second half of your post, though. Selfishness is a virtue, and those who don't practice it don't posses any purpose of their own.
  • #109
  • Edited 8:50am Aug 10, 2011 7:46am | Edited 8:50am
Quoting cugir321
Somebody needs to tell Leonlorenzo all that cash he's planning to acculate won't be worth anything when they're done printing. You can't even use it for tablet paper. We'll pay 'em back...they're not going to default but everyone will still suffer. We should default...that way we could rebuild and our kids won't pay the price when we're gone. Who needs fat kids anyway. We spent it...we need to pay the bill one way or another.
I'm not qualified (at the moment) to understand the impact or the extent of their printing. I don't know all the theories, the numbers or the past cases to come to any kind of honest conclusion with regards to the effects of what the U.S. Gov. is doing.

If you do, then you're further ahead than me. Your conclusions could be based on some fault you have made in your working, though. That's why I wont take on board fully what you or any other person tells me. Not until I see for my self.

How would I go about judging the effect of a $X increase in the money suppy weighed against the arguements for or against said increase? While taking account of the current condition of business/industry, peoples savings and spending habbits? Anyway, If I were to judge how much the value of a dollar has dropped what measure of the money supply would I use to do this?

If your opinion is worth listening to, then you need to give me answers and your reasons for those answers.

Excuse any ignorance I show in the coming paragraphs:

The underlying purpose of the central bank of any country is to pursue a monetary policy which is good for business/industry at large. They protect business/industry because without these enterprises, people have no jobs, no money, no food and the country slips in to a blur of death and violence. Am I correct thus far?

So, the printing of money will only lead to inflation if they print too much, no? And there are two reasons why the FED might print money: to stimulate demand or to reduce the countries debts.

The first may lead to inflation because an increase in demand past the capacity of a business causes them to increase prices, the increase in prices leaves people with less in their pockets and thus demand will be insufficient again and so the FED will print more, leading to further inflation: this only happens if the CB prints too much too often. I am kind of fuzzy about the circumstances under which and how the former can happen, though.

The second is blatant intentional policy of inflation that is followed for the sole end of reducing a countries debts.

Which is the fed guilty of? And tell me if there are any holes in what I've wrote above.

I honestly have little sufficiently justified opinion on this as I stand.
Living the adventure in my head.
  • #110
  • Aug 10, 2011 10:16am Aug 10, 2011 10:16am
I'n MY humble opinion, no discussion re: the money supply makes a lick of sense without accounting for the "velocity" at which it is changing hands. Armchair economists (like the Ron Pauls of the world) love to point to their bar napkin calculations to show that an increase in the money supply simply MUST cause inflation, but the fact is, there is zero real world evidence supporting the nonsense of which they speak.
  • #111
  • Edited 11:23am Aug 10, 2011 10:47am | Edited 11:23am
Quoting Darkstar
I'n MY humble opinion, no discussion re: the money supply makes a lick of sense without accounting for the "velocity" at which it is changing hands. Armchair economists (like the Ron Pauls of the world) love to point to their bar napkin calculations to show that an increase in the money supply simply MUST cause inflation, but the fact is, there is zero real world evidence supporting the nonsense of which they speak.
That makes sense.

Quantity of money (Q), Velocity (V)

Q x V = X
2Q x 1/2V = X

I'm not exactly sure what 'X' is. But I guess the above shows an increase in Q doesn't have to have any effect as long as V decreases enough too. Saying that, this is probably the equivalent of 'bar napkin calculations'. :/
Living the adventure in my head.
  • #112
  • Aug 10, 2011 10:35pm Aug 10, 2011 10:35pm
Quoting Darkstar
I'n MY humble opinion, no discussion re: the money supply makes a lick of sense without accounting for the "velocity" at which it is changing hands. Armchair economists (like the Ron Pauls of the world) love to point to their bar napkin calculations to show that an increase in the money supply simply MUST cause inflation, but the fact is, there is zero real world evidence supporting the nonsense of which they speak.

well we have plenty of proof of inflation... the cost of a gallon of gas in 1998 was 99 cents a gallon...

The rise in the cost of gas alone increased the cost of goods at least a good 30% and in some cases more than that.

While you can't necessarily pin this on money supply alone I'm sure you could look back and see that the money supply has greatly increased
since 1998.

If you do your weekly grocery shopping I challenge you to memorize prizes of your favorite things you buy regularly. I can regularly find some items on sale randomly for around a $1.00 when the sale comes off I have seen prices jump back to $1.40 - 1.45. Do the math... an extra .40 on an item that was a dollar is a 40 percent increase.

Just because you pay no attention to these things doesn't mean they don't exist. Inflation is price inflating plain and simple. If you haven't noticed this at the grocery store, gas pump etc where have you been?

If prices go up 2-3 percent no problem but you start seeing spikes of 30 and 40 percent that is plenty of evidence for me.
  • #113
  • Aug 11, 2011 12:36am Aug 11, 2011 12:36am
There are plenty of 'coincidental' examples of inflation and money flow happening at the same time, pre-WWII Germany, Latin America in the 80s spring to mind.
The breaking of a wave cannot explain the whole sea.
  • #114
  • Aug 11, 2011 1:17am Aug 11, 2011 1:17am
Quoting pip_seeker
If prices go up 2-3 percent no problem but you start seeing spikes of 30 and 40 percent that is plenty of evidence for me.
True. Inflation to me.... according to the things that I buy, things that I MUST buy, I would say that 30 and 40% is what I've noticed.

Of course, our trusted gubmint cooks those books by quoting inflation "excluding food and energy".
  • #115
  • Aug 11, 2011 4:02am Aug 11, 2011 4:02am
Quoting pip_seeker
well we have plenty of proof of inflation... the cost of a gallon of gas in 1998 was 99 cents a gallon...

The rise in the cost of gas alone increased the cost of goods at least a good 30% and in some cases more than that.

While you can't necessarily pin this on money supply alone I'm sure you could look back and see that the money supply has greatly increased
since 1998.

If you do your weekly grocery shopping I challenge you to memorize prizes of your favorite things you buy regularly. I can regularly find some items on sale randomly for...
I don't see the arguement that denies the presence of inflation.
Living the adventure in my head.
  • #116
  • Aug 11, 2011 5:11am Aug 11, 2011 5:11am
Quoting Leonlorenzo
I don't see the arguement that denies the presence of inflation.

The argument was that an increase in money supply causes inflation. I was merely making the point that since 1998 we have seen a good deal of inflation.

From that time period to now... the money supply has increased greatly as well.
  • #117
  • Aug 11, 2011 5:18am Aug 11, 2011 5:18am
We're both wasting our time...you win...the central bank is a non profit, private organization brought on soley for the welfare of humanity. That prints money for free for the good of mankind. Like Greece and the IMF.

http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/20...economic-coup/

Income has risen, prices have dropped and all is well.

Quoting Leonlorenzo
I'm not qualified (at the moment) to understand the impact or the extent of their printing. I don't know all the theories, the numbers or the past cases to come to any kind of honest conclusion with regards to the effects of what the U.S. Gov. is doing.

If you do, then you're further ahead than me. Your conclusions could be based on some fault you have made in your working, though. That's why I wont take on board fully what you or any other person tells me. Not until I see for my self.

How would I go about judging the effect of a $X increase...
  • #118
  • Edited 6:19am Aug 11, 2011 5:59am | Edited 6:19am
Quoting pip_seeker
The argument was that an increase in money supply causes inflation. I was merely making the point that since 1998 we have seen a good deal of inflation.

From that time period to now... the money supply has increased greatly as well.
Yes, it can do. As was pointed out though, this can be offset by a slow down of the speed at which money changes hands.
Living the adventure in my head.
  • #119
  • Edited 7:03am Aug 11, 2011 6:17am | Edited 7:03am
Quoting cugir321
We're both wasting our time...you win...the central bank is a non profit, private organization brought on soley for the welfare of humanity. That prints money for free for the good of mankind. Like Greece and the IMF.

http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/20...economic-coup/

Income has risen, prices have dropped and all is well.
I suppose the FED is a sinister evil intent on destruction of the country that hosts it, instead?

The IMF and the FED are very different institutions.
Living the adventure in my head.
  • #120
  • Aug 11, 2011 7:56am Aug 11, 2011 7:56am
Quoting Craig
There are plenty of 'coincidental' examples of inflation and money flow happening at the same time, pre-WWII Germany, Latin America in the 80s spring to mind.
Indeed - can someone who denies the influence of the money supply affecting inflation explain Germany's hyperinflation? I don't know much about economics so don't have firm opinions one way or another but would be interested in the explanation.
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