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Trading Using Control Bars

  • #81
  • Jul 20, 2011 7:55am Jul 20, 2011 7:55am
Quoting ns_karthik
as i had expected and had stated in my first few posts, it has been proved that it is all a waste of time here....this is no longer a place for sincere trainers or learners...all i see is hate and trying to play a game of one-upmanship on who is better and who knows more...

if u know more and are better...so be it...i havent come here to prove that i am a good trader...i dont need to waste my time here to prove that...and if u r really better, pls do take the time to help other traders rather than coming into new threads and trying to pull it...
i agree with you, what's up with all the negativity? i don't know. i just scratch my head trying to understand. i just ignore it, and continue to do my thing.
  • #82
  • Jul 20, 2011 11:13am Jul 20, 2011 11:13am
Hey,
I'm new here, and pretty new to trading. I'm currently paper trading FX, to try to get a better understanding of it, and would love it if you could give me some more advice, and things to read as far as control bars and wide range bars go. Normally I've been breaking even daily, but I've been trying to make a lot of trades off of something similar to your control bars i think.

I'm usually looking at the overall trend of the 3 hr charts, and then using the 15 min charts to make my trades.

Do you have any advice about ways to know when the price is going to break out of the control bar range/when to stop trading based off of your control bar?
  • #83
  • Jul 21, 2011 1:50am Jul 21, 2011 1:50am
@ ns_karthik

This is interesting observation, especially for the bar close on its absolute high/ low as it reflects the changes by market maker. The control bar could provide some nice trigger level, on it's low, high or even in the middle. People trade vsa probably already knew it as they might call it wide spread bar, but everyone use it differently. Understand the such a bar could be very helpful for someone use it as a main method or add to trading arsenal.

But.. your argueing with kamise is not worthy at all. He is just a piece of shit who know a little about vsa and think that he's best. Ban him from the thread and continue, please.
  • #84
  • Edited 5:52pm Jul 23, 2011 5:36pm | Edited 5:52pm
Quoting ns_karthik
..So, lets try and come up with a good universal definition for control bars. In my mind, its quite simple to find good control bars. Just open up your chart and choose the bar which has the highest volatility, in other words, the biggest bar. This is a good control bar for everyone to work with..
I was PM'd a question and have decided to answer it here.

Control Bar Analysis (CBA) is a sub-set of Volatility Analysis. Wide Range Body (or Bar) Analysis (WRB) is also a sub-set of Volatility Analysis. Whilst volume can be used in this type of analysis it is not required. Nevertheless, there remains an element of Supply/Demand Analysis inherent in Volatility Analysis.

CBA analysis should be thought of as a unique sub-set of Volatility Analysis rather than WRB analysis because the requirements and use are not the same as the definitive source for WRB analysis which comes from Mark (WRBtrader).

The above quote says to find the "largest range bar", or highest volatility bar. WRB analysis would say all WRBs are increases in volatility but not all WRBs represent key changes in supply and demand. And therefore not all WRBs can be used as WRB Zones. WRB Zones function as support and resistance. However, the more important function (for me), is that they create areas or zones to take entry and exit signals. Simply, WRBs are not trade signals. With WRB analysis, you do not need to look at more than one time frame. Each time frame creates its own key changes in supply and demand. To be sure, some advanced users my choose to look at WRB zones from more than one time frame but it is not necessary.

Information on WRB analysis can be found for free, but I will not post the link here.

As for this thread, knowing what I know about Volatility Analysis in general, I am very much in the "wait and see" camp. As there may well be some interesting and useful information to follow.

I have also attached a chart of my sub-set of Volatility Analysis. Again, it is a sub-set because there are elements I want to see in the WRB itself that are not part of Mark's teaching.

I am not that interested in WRB zones as support and resistance, because support and resistance is NOT a trade signal. WRB zones, or Supply/Demand Delta Zones as I call them, fill one part of the two part equation. Seeing what you want to see, where you want to see it.

There will always be haters, I hope you don't let that deter you. Keep posting. If you find that the path is taking you too far of course, may I humbly suggest you return to the source (pm me for it, if somebody else does not post the link and name of Mark's site).

P.S. I deleted the PM so if I did not answer all your questions, just PM me again.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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Without VSA, you're playing checkers while the Smart Money plays chess.
  • #85
  • Jul 24, 2011 11:36am Jul 24, 2011 11:36am
Quoting HiddenGap
I was PM'd a question and have decided to answer it here.

Control Bar Analysis (CBA) is a sub-set of Volatility Analysis. Wide Range Body (or Bar) Analysis (WRB) is also a sub-set of Volatility Analysis. Whilst volume can be used in this type of analysis it is not required. Nevertheless, there remains an element of Supply/Demand Analysis inherent in Volatility Analysis.

CBA analysis should be thought of as a unique sub-set of Volatility Analysis rather than WRB analysis because the requirements and use are not the...

Thanks HG for your post. You r one of the traders that i respect and a good post from you has finally made me to decide to continue my posting on this thread. I will continue posting my thoughts and analysis on this thread and on my blog and hence, do keep an eye on both...
  • #86
  • Jul 24, 2011 11:38am Jul 24, 2011 11:38am
Quoting HiddenGap
I was PM'd a question and have decided to answer it here.

Control Bar Analysis (CBA) is a sub-set of Volatility Analysis. Wide Range Body (or Bar) Analysis (WRB) is also a sub-set of Volatility Analysis. Whilst volume can be used in this type of analysis it is not required. Nevertheless, there remains an element of Supply/Demand Analysis inherent in Volatility Analysis.

CBA analysis should be thought of as a unique sub-set of Volatility Analysis rather than WRB analysis because the requirements and use are not the...

also, if and when u have the time, can u tell us the difference between a drifter and climber and also can u explain a bit abt how u determine whether a price range constitutes a change in supply/demand?
  • #87
  • Jul 24, 2011 12:51pm Jul 24, 2011 12:51pm
it looks at a glance the breakout bar identifys double tops and bottoms
the usual rule is as kartnik mentions

it is the same as double top or bottom breakout of the range of the fractal of the high low bar

nice work

of course i agree it IS a volatility bar but its a nice explanation and
i understand his great concept of this its realy a neat idea of how the breakout of volatility hold the price to those levels for scalping the range of the hl bar AND ONE CAN VIEW IT EASILY

nothing new in his concept but its simplicity is worth further investigation on using bar for viewing this range identification method

sometimes for some simple hings are the hardest to understand

but im sUre any experience trader will easily understand his idea and concept

only the inexperience trader neds to read and trade demo if he doesnt graep this excellent easy concept

well done dont let the ideots distract you or the thread destroyers

by giving we recieve 1000x more than we gave

KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK

GOD BLESS from BRIAN




Quoting ns_karthik
also, if and when u have the time, can u tell us the difference between a drifter and climber and also can u explain a bit abt how u determine whether a price range constitutes a change in supply/demand?
  • #88
  • Jul 24, 2011 1:06pm Jul 24, 2011 1:06pm
Quoting HiddenGap
I was PM'd a question and have decided to answer it here.

Control Bar Analysis (CBA) is a sub-set of Volatility Analysis. Wide Range Body (or Bar) Analysis (WRB) is also a sub-set of Volatility Analysis. Whilst volume can be used in this type of analysis it is not required. Nevertheless, there remains an element of Supply/Demand Analysis inherent in Volatility Analysis.

CBA analysis should be thought of as a unique sub-set of Volatility Analysis rather than WRB analysis because the requirements and use are not the...
Great post, thank you HG.

Be like water.
  • #89
  • Jul 24, 2011 3:03pm Jul 24, 2011 3:03pm
Quoting ns_karthik
... can u tell us the difference between a drifter and climber and also can u explain a bit abt how u determine whether a price range constitutes a change in supply/demand?
Let's start with the second part first.

Before I do that, there are a few things I should make clear. WRB analysis was developed by Mark (WRBtrader). He offers a tutorial that consists of 12 chapters for a fee. However, the first three (3) chapters are free. Therefore, out of respect to him and those who have paid money, I can not talk about anything that is only accessible to paid members. Since chapters 1-3 are free to all, I feel it is okay to discuss some of that information and not be breaking any non discloser agreement. Also I have taken WRB analysis and tried to make it my own. So some of what I might say may not be technically 'right', that is, directly from Mark. But we all trade our belief systems and so I have incorporated my belief system into my understand of WRB analysis.

On a side note, this is why it a fallacy to think that a system or method of trading will lose its effectiveness with wide-spread dissemination. In truth, no two traders will trade a system or method exactly the same because no two traders have exactly the same belief system.

As I said before, WRB Analysis is a sub-set of Volatility Analysis. The base definition of a WRB is a candle body (Open-Close for candlestick users) that is greater than the previous three (3) candle bodies. Yet, that number can be user defined. Therefore 1 trader may use this definition while another trader may choose to use another number like 7. If a traders uses bar charts, then the base definition would be a bar with a range (High-Low) greater than the previous three (3). Unless otherwise stated, I will be talking in terms of WRBs with respect to candles.

WRB Analysis is primarily designed to improve a trader's understanding of the Price Action that occurs prior to any trade signal. A chart will have many WRBs but not all WRBs are equal. The WRBs that are of most importance will be Hidden Gap WRBs. A Hidden Gap involves the interval prior to the WRB and the interval immediately following the WRB. The underlying premise of a WRB Hidden Gap is that they represent where key market participants or Big Boys (BBs) have entered or exited positions and this action has created a change in the supply/demand dynamics in the market. Because some of the BBs have entered and exited in this area, and the BBs know that other BBs have likely entered or exited in this area, the area is watched by all the BBs. So all WRB Hidden Gaps represent changes in the supply/demand dynamic but not all WRB Hidden Gaps represent KEY changes in said dynamic. Those that represent a KEY change are determined by the Price Action after the appearance of the WRB Hidden Gap.

Drifters and Climbers are WRB Hidden Gaps with some specific price action components that I have imposed. Whilst they have nothing to do with VSA, I have imposed the concept of Effort into the definition. One way I define Effort is by looking at the relationship of the body to the range. If the open is in the lower 25% of the range and the close is in the upper 75% of the range, then there was Effort shown on the interval. So not only does the body need be greater than the previous three(3) but also the open needs to be in the lower portion of the range and the close in the upper portion. Effort can also be seen by the midpoint of the range of the candle. If the range of the candle is greater than the High of the previous candle (for a climber) then there is effort. In Bill William's first book this represents a two bar trend. Which, by the way, is also where the terms drifters and climbers come from.

Not surprisingly to those who have read some of my posts, most of my climbers will also be "buying" candles. That is, they will make a higher high and not a lower low than the previous candle. This too shows effort on the buy side and a lack of effort on the sell side.

Lastly, I think of range as showing effort as well. This is where I combine the idea of a Wide Range Body with a Wide Range Bar. So not only is a climber going to have a body (Open-Close) greater than the previous three (3) intervals, but also a range (High-Low) greater than the previous three (3) intervals as well.

Here's the best part. In chapter three of Mark's work, he talks about WRB Zones created by the user's own trade signals. Although climbers and drifters are not trade signals themselves, I think I can use them to create Zones as if they were actual trade signals because they could be.

Actually, the best part may be this: A WRB Hidden Gap only creates a WRB Zone based on the Price Action that follows (meets certain predefined criteria). That is another way of saying Result. So I am looking for Climbers and Drifters which are Effort and then looking for Result (the price action that follows). This ties in nicely with VSA and Wyckoff even without the use of volume.
Without VSA, you're playing checkers while the Smart Money plays chess.
  • #90
  • Jul 24, 2011 11:15pm Jul 24, 2011 11:15pm
Quoting brijon
it looks at a glance the breakout bar identifys double tops and bottoms
the usual rule is as kartnik mentions

it is the same as double top or bottom breakout of the range of the fractal of the high low bar

nice work

of course i agree it IS a volatility bar but its a nice explanation and
i understand his great concept of this its realy a neat idea of how the breakout of volatility hold the price to those levels for scalping the range of the hl bar AND ONE CAN VIEW IT EASILY

nothing new in his concept but its simplicity is worth further...
thanks brijon....thats the beauty of this method...it is so simple and straightforward...u dont need fancy indicators and stuff....u just try and keep it as simple as u can and we will do well...
  • #91
  • Jul 24, 2011 11:16pm Jul 24, 2011 11:16pm
Quoting HiddenGap
Let's start with the second part first.

Before I do that, there are a few things I should make clear. WRB analysis was developed by Mark (WRBtrader). He offers a tutorial that consists of 12 chapters for a fee. However, the first three (3) chapters are free. Therefore, out of respect to him and those who have paid money, I can not talk about anything that is only accessible to paid members. Since chapters 1-3 are free to all, I feel it is okay to discuss some of that information and not be breaking any non discloser agreement. Also I have taken...
thanks HG....once again a great post...guess everyone should take quite a bit of time in digesting what has been mentioned here...again, i am amazed at the amount of time and effort that u put into each of your posts and that shows how much care u take in putting across ur views and ensuring that others benefit out of your experience...thanks again...
  • #92
  • Jul 24, 2011 11:25pm Jul 24, 2011 11:25pm
Attached is the hourly chart of the euro. Around noon on Friday, i had pointed out the control bar for the euro and had also posted an article of where i would be looking for longs on the euro. This is an update on the chart. As in the previous article, i have marked the top of the control bar, and you can clearly see how the price came to the exact same support region and then bounced more than 40 pips.

I had called for a long around 4325-4330 and if you had taken that, it would have been a cool 40 pips for a DD of less than 10 pips. Thats the power of the control bar.
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  • #93
  • Jul 25, 2011 12:31am Jul 25, 2011 12:31am
Quoting HiddenGap
Let's start with the second part first.

Before I do that, there are a few things I should make clear. WRB analysis was developed by Mark (WRBtrader). He offers a tutorial that consists of 12 chapters for a fee. However, the first three (3) chapters are free. Therefore, out of respect to him and those who have paid money, I can not talk about anything that is only accessible to paid members. Since chapters 1-3 are free to all, I feel it is okay to discuss some of that information and not be breaking any non discloser agreement. Also I have taken...
HG : after reading your post, the main " problem " seems to be the correct way to trade the price action after your " climber ".

Quote :
======================

Actually, the best part may be this: A WRB Hidden Gap only creates a WRB Zone based on the Price Action that follows (meets certain predefined criteria). That is another way of saying Result. So I am looking for Climbers and Drifters which are Effort and then looking for Result (the price action that follows). This ties in nicely with VSA and Wyckoff even without the use of volume.

======================

So I am thinking : it is not really the main point how to detect these bars, but how do we trade them. On first touch ? After seeing tests, and if yes, then at which point in time or after which kind of confirmation do we decide and say : okay, enough of tests, I will enter as I see a high enough probability for a positive outcome ?

Losing trades happen often to me when the main direction was seen by me, but then another retest happened ( spike ), taking out my position. I hope I can make myself clear.

Edit : pic shows area of price action after " climber ". You see how a spike up lures buyers in, only to take them out - before the real move.

So, do we need VSA to get a degree of certainty in this " testing " area, or are the bars/candles themselves enough ?

nskarthik, thank you for the example !

I wish a good trading week for all.


______________
michael
Attached Image
Be like water.
  • #94
  • Jul 25, 2011 1:11am Jul 25, 2011 1:11am
..i just cant help my self to create indicator for identify control bar ...
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: 1.gif Size: 9 KB
Attached File(s)
File Type: mq4 ControlBar.mq4   2 KB | 764 downloads
Revenge of Scalper
  • #95
  • Jul 25, 2011 1:38am Jul 25, 2011 1:38am
so how do u formulate a trading strategy based on the control bar analysis.....as mentioned before, the control bars appear in all timeframes ranging from 5M to the weekly.....so first of all, decide which time frame you are comfortable trading in....some are comfortable trading in 15M while some are comfortable trading the daily...choose which timeframe you want to trade in....i suggest that for day traders, you choose 15M and for those who work on other jobs, you can choose the daily timeframe....once u have chosen a timeframe, stick to it and trade that timeframe....dont keep changing the TF depending on how the trade goes....stick to it...

once u have chosen the TF, mark the control bars....and mark the high and low of these control bars....for 15M, take the bars from the past 2 mnths...for daily, take bars from past 6 mnths....u should get about 6-8 control bars...mark the high and low of each....u should get good support and resistance areas.....will discuss step 2 later...
  • #96
  • Jul 25, 2011 2:04am Jul 25, 2011 2:04am
Quoting ns_karthik
Thanks HG for your post. You r one of the traders that i respect and a good post from you has finally made me to decide to continue my posting on this thread. I will continue posting my thoughts and analysis on this thread and on my blog and hence, do keep an eye on both...
Thanks for starting again

Optimism is the faith that leads to achievement.
  • #97
  • Jul 25, 2011 5:10am Jul 25, 2011 5:10am
you may find this indicater that will be useful for you in seeing your control zone the setting are in inputs one can use different settings bars back for different trading time frames

i think this may help you as it will find latest hh ll bars for you

but as previous great answer from hidden gap we are waiting for more information
simple indicater you can dictate how many bars back you want the hh ll

of that time frame by input it will alow you to see breakout of current range and new formed control bars very easy

from brian
Attached File(s)
File Type: ex4 square.ex4   5 KB | 581 downloads
  • #98
  • Jul 25, 2011 9:50am Jul 25, 2011 9:50am
Attached are 2 charts of EURGBP. Lets see how we can construct a great trade using control bar analysis. First, have a look at the hourly EURGBP chart. I have marked off 2 bars which serve as the control bars. These are very easy to identify as they are the biggest bars in the current chart. So i simply mark them off as A and B and i have also marked off the high and low of each bar using red lines.

Now switch to the lower timeframe i.e. 15M. This is show in the next chart. You can see the price action clearly. Concentrate on the price action between the 2 red lines in the region marked C. You can see a great battle going on . On one side, you can see price trying to push into the region of the control bars but 8820 acting as support and on the other hand, you can see price trying to push out of the control bars but 8828 acts as good resistance. So, for the trade, you wait for price to move into 8828 and then you realise that 8828 could act as a resistance. You wait and watch to see if 8828 is indeed acting as resistance.


Remember that you should not jump into a short immediately when price drops below 8828. You need to wait and see whether 8828 is indeed acting as resistance. Wait for retrace to 8828 and see if it breaks back above 8828 or stays below. Here you can clearly see that it stays below 8828. So, you take a short below 8828. Have the SL just above 8828 (6-7 pip SL) and you have a great trade. TP1 is the point which gives you 1:1 risk reward ratio and TP2 is the close or the low of the control bar (this gives a 4;1 or 5:1 trade).
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  • #99
  • Jul 25, 2011 10:02am Jul 25, 2011 10:02am
Quoting msmarple
..So I am thinking : it is not really the main point how to detect these bars, but how do we trade them. On first touch ? After seeing tests, and if yes, then at which point in time or after which kind of confirmation do we decide and say : okay, enough of tests, I will enter as I see a high enough probability for a positive outcome ?
I don't want to disrupt the thread as this is a thread about Control bars and not WRBs or my Effort Bars. I will, however, answer this question.

The nice thing about WRB Analysis is that it is not a trade signal. Any trade signal/method a trader uses can be used in conjuction with WRB Analysis. A trader can use Japanese Candlestick patterns, MACD signals, or any other entry signal method.

The point I was making with my Effort bars was that since I do not know if you have a Supply/Demand Delta Zone until I see the resulting price action, I am basically using the concept of Effort vs Result. Which is a VSA concept. Yet I mentioned nothing about volume in defining the Effort bar (climber or drifter).

There are a couple of ways to determine if you have a KEY change in the Supply/Demand Dynamic and therefore a Supply/Demand Delta Zone.

1. The first way is in the resulting Price Action.

2. The second way is if you see an immediate buy/sell set up within the body of the WRB after it is a Hidden Gap. To be a Hidden Gap, we need to look at the interval prior and the interval following the WRB.

The first chart shows one type of Price action that would qualify the WRB as a KEY change and therefore create a WRB Zone. The two squares would be places to look for an entry signal (again, whatever a traders uses for that).

The second chart shows an immediate entry signal before any Price Action definiton that still tells the trader that the WRB was infact a KEY change. In this particular case, there is both a VSA aggressive entry and an entry based on Japanese Candlestick patterns. The Japanese Candlestick pattern entry is particularly strong because it is a dual pattern. It is both a tweezer pattern and a bullish engulfing pattern.

I hope I answered your question, but I am not sure if I did. If not I can try again.
Attached Image(s) (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Price 2.png Size: 123 KB
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Without VSA, you're playing checkers while the Smart Money plays chess.
  • #100
  • Jul 25, 2011 10:52am Jul 25, 2011 10:52am
Quoting HiddenGap
I don't want to disrupt the thread as this is a thread about Control bars and not WRBs or my Effort Bars. I will, however, answer this question.

The nice thing about WRB Analysis is that it is not a trade signal. Any trade signal/method a trader uses can be used in conjuction with WRB Analysis. A trader can use Japanese Candlestick patterns, MACD signals, or any other entry signal method.

The point I was making with my Effort bars was that since I do not know if you have a Supply/Demand Delta Zone until I see the resulting price action, I am...

hey how did you get your charts to look in that colour ?

imho these control bar thingy are really not properly thought through. cant see them working..
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