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Trading Without a Stoploss--BHILC

  • #21
  • Mar 16, 2006 7:24am Mar 16, 2006 7:24am
Quoting outlawsfh
Thanks for the replies everyone.

I will probably hold off on BWILC as I am not really looking for strategies at this point so much as the basics on which to build strategies on at a later time.

(I dont even know what a pip is )

Looking for a interactive tutorial & introduction.

I guess that many systems will require you to have a certain level of experience...

I am looking to get that basic level of understanding prior to learning a system.

Let me ask everyone what their opinions are on Rob Booker? He has "1 on 1" training, but it is a 6 month investment at $200 per month? He says he can cater to beginners.

http://www.robbooker.com
I got his name from another thread here, I think it was under the books section.

He also has charts at $80 per month. and suggests opening and account with $5000. All kind of steep for me, but if it panned out it would be worth it.

that about $6700 that I would need...

Ideas?

Thanks!
Regarding the Booker one on one, I took it (paid my $1200) and was frankly disappointed. The expectations one gets from his website on what one on one training entails were certainly not what I experienced. Essentially, he has a website with a fair amount of material to review and understand. But after than, there is no "push" from him to engage. It boils down to you marking up charts/ideas for potential trades, sending them to him via email and he responds with a "good, I like" or a "not so much" type of answers. He does send out 1-4 times a week a PDF file with potentail trade ideas and explains the reaons for them. This interaction is his primary teaching vehicle, in my opinion. And it's also not really one one one. One other thing I was disappointed in -- he has made, and continues to make, a case for "trading for 10 pips." In other words, he espouses a philosophy/strategy where one can make a living out of making 10 pips a day (on average) and not shooting for 30-50 pip days which is the stuff of the bigger guys. At the beginning, I liked the sound of this but, unfortunately, that is not what his methods are. His trades rely on larger moves and larger sized stop losses (30-60 pips) than you'd ever be allowed in a strategy that shot for only 10 pip wins. Most of his analysis that he publishes in the PDFs to the one on one school enrollees are done from daily or hourly charts, not from short time frames. I would not recommend Booker for $1200.
  • #22
  • Mar 16, 2006 9:43am Mar 16, 2006 9:43am
Quote
How long were you interned to Dr. Forex?

Started June 1, 2005. The costs have changed a bit since I started and they are available from Dirk. I think about $1000 initial, then a small commission for a period of time. The commission pays the cost of the Dr. Forex daily briefings which are excellent.

Quote
Cool! This is what I am Trying to come to grips with. Do you use the ultra low gearing Dr. F suggests?

Each entry is roughly 1:1, in other words if I have a $40K account, an entry would be 40K either long or short EURUSD. I will not go over 10:1 leverage at any time, and have only been there once that I can remember.

Quote
Bingo. This is off the page.....Not the Dr. Forex way? or am I wrong. are you "hedging" those big swings out of the money?

This is what I meant when the mentoring helped me come up with my own strategy. It is based on the Dr. Forex methodology but with my own personal additions. Yes I do hedge those that are way out of the money. In general my account is always net long EURUSD, but is may be a lot 10:1 or a little 1:1 based on current market conditions.

The grid is really an important trading concept and one that I still work at to become totally comfortable.
  • #23
  • Mar 16, 2006 12:35pm Mar 16, 2006 12:35pm
HeavyJ you jinxed me. For the first time my stops have been hit.
  • #24
  • Mar 16, 2006 1:40pm Mar 16, 2006 1:40pm
Quoting bluemonkey
HeavyJ you jinxed me. For the first time my stops have been hit.
sorry Blue!

Your one of my new Heroes tho!

Post back on if just " 1 more pip " would'a kept you afloat!

HJ
HeavyJ -"Posterboy for Spellchecker!" "Will work for pips!"
  • #25
  • Mar 16, 2006 5:28pm Mar 16, 2006 5:28pm
Quoting HeavyJ
sorry Blue!

Your one of my new Heroes tho!

Post back on if just " 1 more pip " would'a kept you afloat!

HJ
no I don't have a 1 pip more story maybe 89 more pips would have though.
  • #26
  • Mar 16, 2006 10:51pm Mar 16, 2006 10:51pm
Hi Blue and everyone.

Blue I kept wondering why you and I were on opposite sides of trades ! Finally I have had my day. Thought you would be there too !!??!!

Anyway, without particularly trying to satisfy everyone and answering some of the questions..... I was one of the starters of BWILC thread . Blue you are too kind.

I think BWILC gives a great perspective on the market. Someone earlier said they werent ready for this kind of trading. I think they should read BWILC first actually in order to put a firm perspective into 'other' types of trading. Someone also said they didnt know what a pip was. I think the answer to that ... basic stuff... is in the first section of BW. Is that still a feebee on the website?

Dirk du Toit advises no stops or large catastophic stops. Hundreds of pips. You would think immediate FEAR.. but actually the opposite is true. When you set up your trading grid, You see the market for what it is in the long term. That is the key. You can see where the market has been over the past weeks and months or more and you set your playing field up using that knowledge of price history. Immediately you get an insite into price action and things actually become less scary. Then you see how price has moved around the median between the two end lines. You also see how price has reacted off of the other grid lines you construct. 5 lines in all. You see that price is contained. In the long term it begins to make some sense. That in itself was a complete revelation for me. And a confidence builder.

Do you need deep pockets for the large draw downs. Yes and no. Some dealing desks let you use fractional pips. So instead of a dollar a pip on a mini account of $ 1000 you can trade a dime a pip. So relatively you have a deep pocket account. I have not done this but I know others who have to good effect. I traded demo at first. I know, not the same thing as real at all. But practice is still a good thing.

Trading the BWILC way on a demo account I was able to get the feeling and some expertise of scaling up and scaling down. The best feeling in the world is when your trade that has been in the negative for long periods of time is finally getting positive and your other positions that you have scaled in are totally positive. Then you can decide when to scale out. How much profit do you want. Really in control when this happens.

The other great thing that I learned to do was to trade retracements of the pair I was in a drawdown with at the time, and trade other pairs to build up my account balance. Essentially it is a much broader view. Instead of isolating each trade and living or dying by that trade, my focus was now on my account balance. So maybe I was down on a trade 150 pips. But by trading an opposing pair such as Swissy I was hedging my account and building up my account balance 150 pips. Then if I wished, I could cancel my losing pair causing a break even in my account. Experience gained. Yes there may or may not be some interest lost or gained. The price of doing business. Or I could trade retracements of the trade I was in. Have to be careful of 'one cancels the other ' on some dealing desks.

There is a lot of control and a definite comfort zone when trading the BWILC way. For me now on real accounts it is an underlayment. I am also interested in and trade other methods. But I have my grid on my charts and am cognizant as price moves toward or away from grid lines. I do use large stops on my real accounts at times. I call them catastrophic. After all I do not want to be short on the dollar when we find Osama.

So like any type of trading method, one has to take and make it their own.

As far as the ebook goes. It will most likely cause your thinking to change and your thoughts about price action change.

Lou
  • #27
  • Mar 16, 2006 11:58pm Mar 16, 2006 11:58pm
After all I do not want to be short on the dollar when we find Osama.
Lou[/quote]

I hope you won't mind if I print this line and pin it to my wall, It's one of the better lines I've heard in a long time.

Maybe we could start a new thread just for these one liners
  • #28
  • Mar 17, 2006 12:18am Mar 17, 2006 12:18am
Lindsay... yes go ahead but you shouldnt quote me... I read this from someone else, cant recall who... some time ago.

Lou
  • #29
  • Edited 6:48am Mar 17, 2006 5:39am | Edited 6:48am
Quoting Lou
Hi Blue and everyone.

Blue I kept wondering why you and I were on opposite sides of trades ! Finally I have had my day. Thought you would be there too !!??!!

Anyway, without particularly trying to satisfy everyone and answering some of the questions..... I was one of the starters of BWILC thread . Blue you are too kind.

I think BWILC gives a great perspective on the market. Someone earlier said they werent ready for this kind of trading. I think they should read BWILC first actually in order to put a firm perspective into 'other' types of trading. Someone also said they didnt know what a pip was. I think the answer to that ... basic stuff... is in the first section of BW. Is that still a feebee on the website?

Dirk du Toit advises no stops or large catastophic stops. Hundreds of pips. You would think immediate FEAR.. but actually the opposite is true. When you set up your trading grid, You see the market for what it is in the long term. That is the key. You can see where the market has been over the past weeks and months or more and you set your playing field up using that knowledge of price history. Immediately you get an insite into price action and things actually become less scary. Then you see how price has moved around the median between the two end lines. You also see how price has reacted off of the other grid lines you construct. 5 lines in all. You see that price is contained. In the long term it begins to make some sense. That in itself was a complete revelation for me. And a confidence builder.

Do you need deep pockets for the large draw downs. Yes and no. Some dealing desks let you use fractional pips. So instead of a dollar a pip on a mini account of $ 1000 you can trade a dime a pip. So relatively you have a deep pocket account. I have not done this but I know others who have to good effect. I traded demo at first. I know, not the same thing as real at all. But practice is still a good thing.

Trading the BWILC way on a demo account I was able to get the feeling and some expertise of scaling up and scaling down. The best feeling in the world is when your trade that has been in the negative for long periods of time is finally getting positive and your other positions that you have scaled in are totally positive. Then you can decide when to scale out. How much profit do you want. Really in control when this happens.

The other great thing that I learned to do was to trade retracements of the pair I was in a drawdown with at the time, and trade other pairs to build up my account balance. Essentially it is a much broader view. Instead of isolating each trade and living or dying by that trade, my focus was now on my account balance. So maybe I was down on a trade 150 pips. But by trading an opposing pair such as Swissy I was hedging my account and building up my account balance 150 pips. Then if I wished, I could cancel my losing pair causing a break even in my account. Experience gained. Yes there may or may not be some interest lost or gained. The price of doing business. Or I could trade retracements of the trade I was in. Have to be careful of 'one cancels the other ' on some dealing desks.

There is a lot of control and a definite comfort zone when trading the BWILC way. For me now on real accounts it is an underlayment. I am also interested in and trade other methods. But I have my grid on my charts and am cognizant as price moves toward or away from grid lines. I do use large stops on my real accounts at times. I call them catastrophic. After all I do not want to be short on the dollar when we find Osama.

So like any type of trading method, one has to take and make it their own.

As far as the ebook goes. It will most likely cause your thinking to change and your thoughts about price action change.

Lou
Lou,

Thanx to you and Bluemonkey for posting here.

I was actually following your previous thread pretty close before it exploded. As I recall there was lots of interest!

It inspired me to BUY the ebook. And as I said, while the method scares the bejeezies out of me, I walked away with, as you said, a refined perspective on markets and trading. The more My focus on the Markets "zoom out" (now primarily daily/weekly charts) the more sense this approach makes. Maybe another read through huh? It's time!

Just curious, when used in this approach, what do you consider a catostrophic stop loss? 500 pips?

I would appreciate you and blue chimin' in here with more nuggets from experience.

I'd be stoked if the two of you Hijacked this discussion!

I'd also like to hear more details/direction wpooljr's hedge strategies, pertaining to this method, as this is aluring as well!

Thanx Again
HeavyJ
HeavyJ -"Posterboy for Spellchecker!" "Will work for pips!"
  • #30
  • Mar 17, 2006 6:34am Mar 17, 2006 6:34am
Hi Blue and everyone.

Blue I kept wondering why you and I were on opposite sides of trades ! Finally I have had my day. Thought you would be there too !!??!!

Anyway, without particularly trying to satisfy everyone and answering some of the questions..... I was one of the starters of BWILC thread . Blue you are too kind.

Hey Lou, you are very welcome for me giving you up. Yes most definitely should have been there. The trade was clearly in the buy zone, but I had to second guess my system. Never again! How have you been and should we hijack this thread from HeavyJ?
  • #31
  • Mar 17, 2006 2:20pm Mar 17, 2006 2:20pm
Heavy J

It is not really a matter of a certain number of pips. Take an hourly chart. Remove everything except price. Look for prior support and resistance. Use those lines. I started looking into Elliot Wave to help with determining possible direction and S/R

Lou
  • #32
  • Mar 19, 2006 10:01pm Mar 19, 2006 10:01pm
Quoting bluemonkey
How have you been and should we hijack this thread from HeavyJ?
Yes, Yes, I am your prisoner. I'd love to learn more if'n ya'll care to pontificate!

HeavyassJ
HeavyJ -"Posterboy for Spellchecker!" "Will work for pips!"
  • #33
  • Mar 19, 2006 10:15pm Mar 19, 2006 10:15pm
Quoting Lou
Heavy J

It is not really a matter of a certain number of pips. Take an hourly chart. Remove everything except price. Look for prior support and resistance. Use those lines. I started looking into Elliot Wave to help with determining possible direction and S/R

Lou
Ok! I guess it depends on your risk strategy and gearing. So your an E-waver? Heady Heady stuff, I've looked at that material many times. Application is so strange because of all the caveats and rules (special circumstances etc...) Definately not in the Bonehead toolbox right now. Still I won't try discredit it. To much evidence of its value.

Bob Prechter lives in my home town and I occasionally bump into him at the local drinkeries. One of these days I'm gonna try and pick his brain on wave theory.

Anywho, If you or blue could post some charts on trades good or bad I'd like to see how you plot the grid.

Thanx again for these posts>

HeavyJ
HeavyJ -"Posterboy for Spellchecker!" "Will work for pips!"
  • #34
  • Mar 20, 2006 2:32pm Mar 20, 2006 2:32pm
Quoting HeavyJ
Ok! I guess it depends on your risk strategy and gearing. So your an E-waver? Heady Heady stuff, I've looked at that material many times. Application is so strange because of all the caveats and rules (special circumstances etc...) Definately not in the Bonehead toolbox right now. Still I won't try discredit it. To much evidence of its value.

Bob Prechter lives in my home town and I occasionally bump into him at the local drinkeries. One of these days I'm gonna try and pick his brain on wave theory.

Anywho, If you or blue could post some charts on trades good or bad I'd like to see how you plot the grid.

Thanx again for these posts>

HeavyJ
Ok Lou post a few charts so I can see If I am doing this system justice. From now on instead of BWILC in honor of me we are going to call it "BMSRT" (Bluemonkeys Support and Resistance Trading) since I have made major modifications to the original concept. But let's only show our good trades I am a bit embarassed by my bad trades.
  • #35
  • Mar 20, 2006 3:36pm Mar 20, 2006 3:36pm
Quoting HeavyJ
Bob Prechter lives in my home town and I occasionally bump into him at the local drinkeries. One of these days I'm gonna try and pick his brain on wave theory.
Mate, you're lucky having Bob nearby
I caught Bob when he was in NZ. He gave a wee talk on socionomics (politics, social trends etc) coupled with long-term Elliott Wave counts. [It was a very small talk and I even had a relative who had come to Auckland just for that talk. I only realised we were related when I met him at my grandmothers funeral a while later. NZ is a very small country hehe.] I found it quite fascinating and it got me into E-Waves. I've got the books, I have the ger and the knowledge.

I tried trading with it and came to the conclusion that as a stand-alone framework for guiding trades I couldn't use it effectively (at that point in time). I do use some of the material, such as corrective move material, in determining when a corrective move is over, and to get some idea of what a market is doing, whether it looks like a corrective or not. I suppose I've cooled off on the idea of using E-Wave for trading.
I'd love to have another chat with Bob about E-wave and socionomics.
Cheers,
Linc.
  • #36
  • Mar 24, 2006 11:53am Mar 24, 2006 11:53am
Hey Bluemonkey,
Thanks for offering to share your findings and system. I (and many others I bet) are anxiously awaiting your post.....or will you start a new "BMSRT" thread to avoid any potential problems with the author?

I really think there is some combination or blend of VWB and BWIC that will make a killer system.
Forex Trading: The hardest way to make easy money.
  • #37
  • Mar 24, 2006 1:15pm Mar 24, 2006 1:15pm
Quoting Norbecker
Hey Bluemonkey,
Thanks for offering to share your findings and system. I (and many others I bet) are anxiously awaiting your post.....or will you start a new "BMSRT" thread to avoid any potential problems with the author?

I really think there is some combination or blend of VWB and BWIC that will make a killer system.
In reality, BWILC is really a rehash of the forex 1-2-3 method, sell at the one and buy at the 2 and the target is 3. Of course I may well be very wrong, but I seriously doubt it. More later................
  • #38
  • Mar 24, 2006 9:21pm Mar 24, 2006 9:21pm
Quoting Norbecker
Hey Bluemonkey,
Thanks for offering to share your findings and system. I (and many others I bet) are anxiously awaiting your post.....or will you start a new "BMSRT" thread to avoid any potential problems with the author?

I really think there is some combination or blend of VWB and BWIC that will make a killer system.
Hi Norbecker,

I think you were involved in the "Rouge Thread" If I'm not mistaken. I'm gonna burn through Du Toits Ebook again, hopefully soon. I'm playin do it yourself carpenter this weekend though!

I'm with you on the VWB, BWILC connection. I'll bite!

Blue....Lookin forward to more from you and Lou!

Good Journey
HeavyJ

I need some beer guzzli'n emoticons Too!
HeavyJ -"Posterboy for Spellchecker!" "Will work for pips!"
  • #39
  • Mar 28, 2006 7:53am Mar 28, 2006 7:53am
Hello all,

I'm new here, and have only a few months of forex experience so don't expect too much from me : Also English is not my native language.

I've read both BWILC and VWB, and it's the best stuff I've read about forex until now (besides Mark Douglas work, which is also an excellent eye opener). I'm also seeing the analogies and thought about how we could combine their methods. VWB fib lines look better than BWILC median grid, but BWILC points us to the importance of fundamentals while VWB kinda ignores it. Both use multiple positions and allow you to scale out (and let winners run) but VWB is better at showing where you can liquidate positions (fib lines/tunnel). BWILC shows why low leverage is important and how to use it. So you get good insights about fundamentals, technical analysis and money management. Now add the psychological approach of Mark Douglas and you have a very powerful combination!

One thing bugs me though: the stop loss. Maybe I missed something, but VWB doesn't really show me flexible ways of dealing with multiple positions when market goes against me after opening my positions. You put your stop and that's it. But if I scale out from winning positions, shouldn't I scale out from losing positions too? Otherwise there is an imbalance, closing all the losers at the same time while you can't let all of your winners run until "the end" (because you don't know where it ends and you want partial profits and "free trades"). Trade the dailies and -100 stops are quite common. Close 4 positions at -100 and you got -400. How many of your "free trades" go to +400?

BWILC does show us how to scale out of losing positions, but here we are talking about 100s of pips in the red "assuming" it will eventually go back in our direction because we are "confident" about the big picture and "know" the long term market direction. Well you better know it because when you are deadly wrong it will be a huuuuge loser. Currencies don't crash often but it CAN happen. And I've learned not to be sure about anything in this market.

Any ideas about this? How do you guys who use VWB deal with the losses? Maybe I'm seeing ghosts and VWB gains really outweigh the losses, but at the moment this stop loss problem bugs me.
  • #40
  • Apr 5, 2006 8:45pm Apr 5, 2006 8:45pm
Just wondering if anyone is familiar Peter Bain and his forex trading method. I've done a lot of reading on the net and he gets nothing but rave reviews. Anyone have any experience with it?
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