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College Grad Looking to Make as a Trader

  • #1
  • First Post: Mar 12, 2011 5:45pm Mar 12, 2011 5:45pm
Hello everyone,
I'd like to tell you a little bit about my situation and ask some advice. So here's my story. Around sophomore year when the housing bubble burst I began to take an interest in the economy. I guess that's when I first caught the bug. Since then I have made an effort to follow the markets every day and learn all I can. I've traded equities a bit and had some success but feel much more comfortable in forex. That being said I've never staked real money in this market. I started demo trading last year after doing the Baby Pips thing and learning all I could for a year or two before that. Trading at school is tough for me because of the spotty connection and firewall so I have to get my time in when I'm home for the summer, breaks, etc. In the mean time I study charts and read whatever I can about trading. For that reason it has been a bit difficult for me to gauge my success.

I know Vegas' 1 hour method doesn't get much respect around here but in my limited use of it (2 months) I've found it to be quite good when used with a few extra filters in a conservative approach. I keep a concise trade journal with reason for entry, emotional state, etc and try to revisit it often. Am I telling you all this to brag and feel good about myself? No, not really. I've read this forum enough to know that there are plenty of people who already claim big wins so my little success isn't going to impress anyone and it shouldn't. I'm telling you all this information you probably don't care about to give you a better picture of my personality and where I am in my trading journey.

This May I graduate from college. Obviously this is an important time in my life as I must begin to chase down my dreams for real or give up and move on. Ideally I would like to get a job in finance but at this time I don't see that happening. I have pushed myself for the last 4 years and I think my transcript reflects that however my resume is inadequate for the field. Strangely enough I spent the first 3 years of college doing pre med coursework and majoring in philosophy. Now I'm basically a college grad with a philosophy major, an honors thesis on healthcare policy, and no job prospects. I talked to a few finance firms and they basically laughed in my face. So much for going the conventional route...

So back to the forex thing. I seriously want to make a go of it in the next few years. I'm 21 now. I figure it's fair to give myself until 25 to let this absurd fantasy play out. So here's my plan. Until I graduate I'll keep on learning what I can and trading as much as possible. Graduation day I hit the ground running. I'll move back in with my family (...great) and basically act like a professional forex trader. I'll follow a strict daily routine and when I'm not trading read about trading. Despite what I said I do have a job lined up for next winter (ski patrol). I'm not sure how that will affect things but I'll most likely adopt a longer term strategy at that point. I will do this until I am confident in my profitability. At that point I break into the real money. I'm fortunate as I have about $30k available to me for my purposes. My plan is to ease my way in funding my account with a much smaller sum to get my feet wet. If I find success I'll slowly add more as I gain confidence. If I'm losing money I'll go back to the demo.

I probably come off as sounding totally idealistic and nuts, and I probably am. So here I'm looking for honest advice. I get the feeling people will want to come down on me pretty hard and that's ok. I don't really tell people about my dream anymore because they just tell me I'm an idiot. As far as I'm concerned it's extra motivation. They say you can't discourage someone who is meant to be a trader because nothing disuades a real trader. I don't know if that special title is meant to belong to me but I feel unstoppable. This is what I want and I'll do anything to get it. Thank you for your time and any help you're willing to give.

Ian
  • #2
  • Mar 12, 2011 6:20pm Mar 12, 2011 6:20pm
Step 1:

Read this book over and over until its seared into your mind. Reminiscences of a Stock Operator Annotated Edition by Jon D. Markman. Or you could read the free version that is floating around the internet.

Step 2:

In a structured and focused manner as possible study the market. Let it teach you how to trade and just listen. I would exclude all noise and focus only on either the Euro or Cable. And forget all the b.s. you've learned and just flow with the markets. Just my humble opinion dont take it seriously.

Slàinte
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  • #3
  • Mar 12, 2011 6:23pm Mar 12, 2011 6:23pm
Hi Ian,

Welcome to the Factory! Let the finance firms laugh. Trading isn't about college degrees (although congrats on your upcoming graduation), or working for this firm or that one, it's an untouched land upon which it's your job to make things grow while hoping the weather cooperates. Hard work is the only thing that separates you from being a successful trader. Study study study, be curious, ask lots of questions and try not to stray to far from the path of common sense. Don't get too distracted by what other people are saying, work on forming your own opinions about the market then watch carefully to see how things play out. In general, strive to be a man that does his own thinking and avoids leaning on others too much. I think your studies in philosophy will take you a lot further than the little men in suits at the finance firms think.

Look up Dennis Gartman, I think he says that history is the best thing to study if you want to be a trader, I think philosophy will work to though.

Take care and enjoy the process,

Jim
  • #4
  • Mar 12, 2011 6:31pm Mar 12, 2011 6:31pm
As you are a skier like me, let me ask you a metaphorical question in response:

If you were to ski in a glacier area known to have killed scores of people over the years, would you go out on your own with a guide book you bought in the local shop or would you rather hire a local guide?
  • #5
  • Mar 12, 2011 9:13pm Mar 12, 2011 9:13pm
Quoting Scotty B
Let the finance firms laugh. Trading isn't about college degrees
No, but the networking may greatly boost a trader's longterm success.

Quote
Reminiscences of a Stock Operator
An excellent read, but I expect most people don't get much of it.

Quote
If you were to ski in a glacier area known to have killed scores of people over the years, would you go out on your own with a guide book you bought in the local shop or would you rather hire a local guide?

Except in this case, the glacier contains uncountable pots of gold, and few skilled guides would care to lead anyone there but themselves.
  • #6
  • Edited Mar 13, 2011 4:42am Mar 12, 2011 9:45pm | Edited Mar 13, 2011 4:42am
Quoting IanMH
I keep a concise trade journal with reason for entry, emotional state, etc and try to revisit it often.
...
my dream...they... tell me I'm an idiot.
Another side to all this careful planning --


What the heck is a "professional forex trader"!? Live a little, first: Anything can happen if you are one.
Risk all $30k at once, then hide the money (vs. severe penalties, etc.).
Live only off $500 for a week and trade it while you do;
on the last day, daytrade twenty times, and lose a little.
Penny-trade a half dozen trading systems at once, and choose one;
then, figure the taxes for them.

Not planning, knowledge, or mm: Passion and the edge. I've read, they only test to see if you have the knack, how small your losses are. The market is a force of nature, almost random and completely unforgiving, and 1000s of hours of study and practice are nothing.
  • #7
  • Edited 9:39am Mar 13, 2011 12:53am | Edited 9:39am
1. Don't go back home to live with the parents. Unless they are exceptional, your parents (or friends) are not going to understand your 'mission'. Honestly, I can't see any parents of a recent college grad being supportive of the forex trader 'lifestyle' while you are living under their roof.

2. Find an evening job. It's not going to be your career, just something that hopefully pays better than minimum wage. You are going to be under-employed. With 30-35 hours a week, can you at least continue to live like a 'college student'? Small apartment perhaps, frugal shopping, etc.

3. You work at night, but you must have the discipline to wake up early/on-time each day to watch, trade, learn the markets.

4. Start with $1000 maybe, MAYBE. Don't touch your other $29,000...seriously. Trade for six months, see if you can find an 'edge'.

You have your evening job which pays for hopefully at least one half of your living expenses. You've got $29,000...so you should be able to survive 2 years if you continue to work.

With that situation, you can concentrate on improving/mastering your trading.
At no time within the first year will you entertain the ridiculous notion that you have to trade for income.

I've traded a very small account for over a year now.

From my experiences, I'll tell you that it is very hard to find a worthwhile 'edge' in the forex markets.
(worthwhile = better % return than if you just invested your money into a mutual fund for the year)
99% of the participants here on Forex Factory are looking for this.

When you look at member profiles and see "Member since 2008" and then read their honest writings of how they are switching systems/methods again, or are looking for a mentor, or still struggling with discipline and risk management... it is sobering.

Just my 2 cents.
Good Luck!
  • #8
  • Mar 13, 2011 3:07am Mar 13, 2011 3:07am
Quoting Intu
1. Don't go back home to live with the parents. Unless they are exceptional, your parents (nor friends) are going to understand your 'mission'. Honestly, I can't see any parents of a recent college grad being supportive of the forex trader 'lifestyle' while you are living under their roof.

2. Find an evening job. It's not going to be your career, just something that hopefully pays better than minimum wage. You are going to be under-employed. With 30-35 hours a week, can you at least continue to live like a 'college student'? Small apartment perhaps,...
So true...
I see my story in that...
Ian I strongly incourage you to listen to this advice...good luck!

edit: everything...not just what was quoted!
  • #9
  • Mar 13, 2011 3:42am Mar 13, 2011 3:42am
Quoting Intu
1. Don't go back home to live with the parents. Unless they are exceptional, your parents (nor friends) are going to understand your 'mission'. Honestly, I can't see any parents of a recent college grad being supportive of the forex trader 'lifestyle' while you are living under their roof.

2. Find an evening job. It's not going to be your career, just something that hopefully pays better than minimum wage. You are going to be under-employed. With 30-35 hours a week, can you at least continue to live like a 'college student'? Small apartment...
best advice for new commers.
  • #10
  • Mar 13, 2011 4:12am Mar 13, 2011 4:12am
Quoting IanMH
Hello everyone,

This May I graduate from college. Obviously this is an important time in my life as I must begin to chase down my dreams for real or give up and move on. Ideally I would like to get a job in finance but at this time I don't see that happening. I have pushed myself for the last 4 years and I think my transcript reflects that however my resume is inadequate for the field. Strangely enough I spent the first 3 years of college doing pre med coursework and majoring in philosophy. Now I'm basically a college grad with a philosophy major,...
Ian, let me ask you a simple question. What will be your position if you do not make it in forex as you are planning?

You have spent 3 - 4 years studying philosophy/healthcare. Surely, you should be able to find a decent job related to that field if you try hard enough despite all the doom and gloom. I can see your facination with finance related jobs but it will be harder for you to get one in finance but not impossible.

It seems to me from your post that you are giving up too quickly on what you have studied for far longer for something you dabbled on a part time basis. Add to that living with parents after graduation.. part time job as a ski patrol... the vibes I am getting are that you want to have an easy life (don't we all?) but I tell you life is not like that.

My two cents worth is that after graduation, get a decent job, work hard, do the forex trading on a part-time basis (start with $1000 no more) and after 3 years decide on your career path.

Good luck and best wishes for your future.
  • #11
  • Mar 13, 2011 4:24am Mar 13, 2011 4:24am
Quoting Mr J
Except in this case, the glacier contains uncountable pots of gold, and few skilled guides would care to lead anyone there but themselves.
Perhaps, but mentoring, coaching and networking still exist, and many would rate that as one of their key success factors.
  • #12
  • Mar 13, 2011 4:25am Mar 13, 2011 4:25am
Quoting Guerrillawar
In a structured and focused manner as possible study the market. Let it teach you how to trade and just listen. I would exclude all noise and focus only on either the Euro or Cable. And forget all the b.s. you've learned and just flow with the markets. Just my humble opinion dont take it seriously.
Very good advice, but the psychological factors are likely to deserve even more attention.
  • #13
  • Mar 13, 2011 4:33am Mar 13, 2011 4:33am
Quoting Rasi
Ian, let me ask you a simple question. What will be your position if you do not make it in forex as you are planning?

You have spent 3 - 4 years studying philosophy/healthcare. Surely, you should be able to find a decent job related to that field if you try hard enough despite all the doom and gloom. I can see your facination with finance related jobs but it will be harder for you to get one in finance but not impossible.

It seems to me from your post that you are giving up too quickly on what you have studied for far longer for something...
Good point, in the sense that you are putting enormous psychological pressure on yourself by having to make it on your own. Trading may cease to be fun and play, and instead turn into an over-bearing burden.

So organising your life so that you don't have to make it in a short period of time, and preferrably so you don't have to make it at all, would be advisable.

And a support structure of mentors, coaches, or otherwise supportive people would be another way to make life easier for you and increase your likelihood of success.
  • #14
  • Mar 13, 2011 4:54am Mar 13, 2011 4:54am
Quoting medici
Perhaps, but mentoring, coaching and networking still exist, and many would rate that as one of their key success factors.
I totally agree. I have only been trading just over 12 months now, but realised within the first 2 months that I would get nowhere without the above. I did my due diligence on Forex educational companies and I chose well. Their mentoring, coaching and networking is second to none with a one-off fee for lifetime education and we also meet up, face to face, at least once a month, It is also key to meet and talk to other traders who trade on the same basic principles to share ideas. It really does make a difference and it certainly beats fumbling around in the dark on your own!

It wasn't cheap, but I see it as an investment in my education and hopefully in the long-term, it will pay off many times over. One step at a time!
  • #15
  • Mar 13, 2011 5:19am Mar 13, 2011 5:19am
Quoting IanMH
Hello everyone,
I'd like to tell you a little bit about my situation and ask some advice. So here's my story. Around sophomore year when the housing bubble burst I began to take an interest in the economy. I guess that's when I first caught the bug. Since then I have made an effort to follow the markets every day and learn all I can. I've traded equities a bit and had some success but feel much more comfortable in forex. That being said I've never staked real money in this market. I started demo trading last year after doing the Baby Pips thing...
well, you should think about the worst-case scenario, not the best-case scenario.
Let's assume in 3 to 4 years you are not profitable and lost all your money. Now you try getting a real job and have a big hole in your resume. How can you explain to companies what you did the last 4 years? If you say trading forex at home, then you have the same problem as with the finance companies - they will laugh at your face.

My advice. Get a real job and do trading on the side.
  • #16
  • Mar 13, 2011 7:16am Mar 13, 2011 7:16am
my advice is don't follow anyones advice, not even this one
Invincibility lies in the defence, the possibility of victory in the attack
  • #17
  • Mar 13, 2011 7:56am Mar 13, 2011 7:56am
Quoting Custos

My advice. Get a real job and do trading on the side.
And where did you get the idea that your philosophy degree is useless? Not true.

Yes, if you want a career position with a leading investment bank, your chances are higher if you have an MSc in Finance or equivalent. But I know several people in the industry with degrees in such things as history or anthropology.

Generally, people with philosophy degrees do well for themselves career-wise, at least in the UK - it's just that they on average need more time to find their niche, as their eduction isn't targeted at a specific job market demand.

So don't waste the investment you have made over the past few years before you have realised its value.
  • #18
  • Edited 10:30am Mar 13, 2011 10:16am | Edited 10:30am
hey dude,

first off excuse my english, i am not a native speaker.

i will give you some hints which would have cutted my learning curve a lot.
first i wanted to say, you need a half time job or evening job... even just for your social contacts. trading is a lonely thing.

1. forget everything you think to know about trading.
2a. dont use indicators anymore, just naked charts with trendlines and s/r levels, watch how price behaves on those areas.
thats no holy grail, nor easy. you have to start to feel the market, your stomach will tell you what to do once you feel it, and this way you'll build confidence. (experience the zone)
(think of indicators as lagging. what we got is e.g. bar or candle charts, even those are lagging the reality, but its the best we've got, why would you add another layer of lag. no sense. simple chart, its all there)
2b. UNDERSTAND HOW price moves. WHAT price moves and what happens if orders hit the market and so on. understand supply and demand.
-> a good trader can trade any market, any instrument profitable if he understood markets in general. you dont need to know more. forget all your reading and searching about forex strategies and stuff.
3. dont demo trade anymore. its just false play because:
4. mindset is everything in trading.
5. you need to trade real money to go through joy and pain and learn to cut your emotions to 0. ( i suggest to open an oanda account with $100 or so. you can trade from 1 unit up. so no harm). if you double it at least move on to a _real_ broker, no bucketshop, no so called stp. serious traders need serious brokers.
6. you need to be very very very disciplined. and i mean very
7. dont adapt other strategies or opinions, its no use and wont work for you. you need to develop your own one.
8. with opinions i mean: never trade a trade which is recommended by someone, stay far away from threads like the eur/usd thread. be on your own. do not listen to advices, signals or other stuff. even if you dont trade them directly they will change your sight of the chart. trade on your own.
9. you just learn by trading real money, and the higher the amount grows (hopefully) your emotions will change dramatically. which means, you can trade like a pro on a demo, but totally lose control on a live account. you can trade like a pro your $100, but with $1000 you lose control of yourself. be aware of fear and greed.
10. forget of thinking to become a pro trader. start to be one.
11. you wont be able to trade for a living with trading your own funds, you need to start managed services once you know what you are doing and have been profitable for years.
12. if your good, soon funds and other people will contact you.


just some quick hints.
but be aware: 99% of trading is psychology. even if you dont think so. it is, and sooner or later every trader has to face that.. i dont give hints on books normally, but read "trading in the zone" from mark douglas.
  • #19
  • Mar 13, 2011 10:29am Mar 13, 2011 10:29am
My advice:

1) get a real job. Trading is not a profession.

2) if you really enjoy trading so much, swing trade. Becoming profitable can take years or might never happen.

3) should your swing trading go well over the years, you could make the transition from swing to daytrading.
  • #20
  • Mar 13, 2011 10:48am Mar 13, 2011 10:48am
[quote=Traderlarry;4467086]My advice:

1) get a real job. Trading is not a profession.

What about all the individual traders who have traded on exchange floors for hundreds of years??? Were they just pursuing a hobby? They were and still are speculating for gains not much different from people at home.

Trading is what you make it. If you want it to be a business and treat it as a legitimate profession it can be. If its just for entertainment it can be that as well. The real danger is when you mix both and have a get rich quick mentality.

Bottom line don't discourage ones dream you don't know for sure if he has what it takes. And success at swing trading has no impact on short term trading. They are two distinct and different methods. You can be a great swing trader and suck at short term trading. You can be a great short term trader and suck at swing trading. Its all about psychological comfort with your methodology.
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