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  • #61
  • Oct 22, 2010 10:39am Oct 22, 2010 10:39am
Well,
that's great wisdom you know. I wonder if you are willing to share how specifically you dig in and find out what you really want. Not some of the normal stuff that are in our heads due to the reason we allow them to be there but are not our own choices.
Some of us been trained loooong years to seek security, job and all sort of familiar things. How you find what is really in your heart. Say one loves trading. Trading itself is means to get to something else something deeper. Trading provides something to traders- achievement enjoyment I don't know. Honestly I don't believe anyone that is long in trading does it for money only. It is not easy and brings quite a lot of setbacks and disappointments initially to leave on the field only people that love it and are very committed.


Thanks


8 Years ago a person I met could not find a job. Was having a hard time paying the bills, was under a lot of pressure. She was stressed and complained about it, like many people do. I will tell you what I told her.

Brace yourself, you may not like it.

You want to find the blame of your problems? Go look in the mirror! You want to complain about the issues your having? Complain about yourself!

Figure out what you want, that is the first step to getting what you want. Figure out what you want that will help you get what you want in step one. That is the second step. Keep repeating. Do not give up until you get what you want originally.

If you are working towards what you want, you will get it. If you are working towards something someone else wants that you do not to in order to try to get it, you normally won't get what you want, nor will they get what your trying to give them.

She wanted to be able to support herself. So she was looking for a job and working for others. She didn't want to work for someone else, she wanted to work for herself.

See the conflict in what she wanted, and what she was doing? See the results she was getting? It was no surprise to me.

When she finally figured out I was not going to accept excuses and reasons why she couldn't nor was I going to let her give up, and she started thinking about ways she could and wanted those as well, and did those instead, she got what she wanted. She owns her own business.

Quit looking at the reasons you cant and reject them when others bring them up. Look at the ways you CAN.

Myself? I am a 9th grade high school dropout. What kind of future did I have when I quit school? It was pretty bleak for me right? Yes, many fail at many different things and have a hard time in life.

Me? In 2000 I wanted a job that required a college degree, and I wanted it at a specific company. I had never worked in the field so had no experience either. At first they would not even talk to me, when they finally did they gave me every reason in the book they would not hire me. Guess what? I wanted that job, I kept at it, I refused to accept their excuses of why I could not get it, I refused to give up on what I wanted.

I got that job with no degree, no experience, with everyone telling me no all along the way including my own friends trying to get me to give up on it. Was it instant? No, it took me almost a year. Was it easy? No. Was it worth it? Yes.

I left that job after 6 years, that was almost 5 years ago. I no longer wanted to work for someone else, I did not want to have to worry about a schedule, I wanted to work when I wanted, I wanted to be able to afford what I wanted when I wanted it. I don't give up on what I want. I had no clue how to go about it or what I was going to do when I decided to leave the company, with little money to live on. Guess what I got?

Do not let anyone tell you can't do/have something or why (Many people have done that to me most of my life, yet most of them are the ones the do not have everything they want, and cannot do anything they want.). Do not give up and show them you can. It may not be instant, it may not be easy, but you will be happy and it will be worth it when you get it.

Now the big question is...
What do you really want? You can do them, and you can have them. Not just you, anyone.

Need proof? Look at all the things that could not be done since it was impossible to do them, that have been done. People with a good perspective and the perseverance to see it through, achieve the impossible all the time.[/quote]
  • #62
  • Oct 22, 2010 10:44am Oct 22, 2010 10:44am
Quoting GulfCoastPip
Yes I mean to be blunt.

Get a job, any job! Keep a roof over your head, electricity on, and water running. You can do that with any job....if not, you're living beyond your means. Move into a cheaper place!

You can trade anytime. It takes time to be professional trader, doctor, attorney, engineer, business owner, etc... Don't think you can start at the top! You're no more a professional trader than Joe Blow that started trading yesterday! Earn it and you'll appreciate it.

Nobody in their right mind would give you capital to trade!
Excellent post.
  • #63
  • Edited 12:00pm Oct 22, 2010 11:50am | Edited 12:00pm
Quoting Karol
Some of us been trained loooong years to seek security, job and all sort of familiar things. How you find what is really in your heart. Say one loves trading. Trading itself is means to get to something else something deeper. Trading provides something to traders- achievement enjoyment I don't know. Honestly I don't believe anyone that is long in trading does it for money only. It is not easy and brings quite a lot of setbacks and disappointments initially to leave on the field only people that love it and are very committed."
Many people, including myself, do it for financial freedom.

People need money to do the things they want to do and live they life they want to live. Jobs require lots of time to acquire money.
Therefore, time --> money.

If you start with the reverse and say you have a lot of money, then you don't need to spend time trying to get it. Managing an account which yields more % than you take out will increase your capital (money) and not require as much time as a full time job (unless you enjoy it and put more time into it such as I do.)
Therfore, money --> time.

Money gives you time to do the things in life that the 9 to 5 grinders will never be able to do. Take vacations whenever you please, make your life on your own schedule, take care of your body with physical fitness and not be rushed to eat ending in bad health choices.

The biggest freedom I foresee is the added time I will be able to spend with my family and kids when that time comes. Rather than be a passive influence provider, who pays all the bills to raise the kids, with financial independence you do just that (with more) and can stay an active part of their lives.

I'm still 3 months away from my 21st birthday. I think it's a blessing I was able to figure this out early on and meet the right people in life before it was too late. I often hear new traders or entrepreneurs who have this same idea but regret not figuring it out earlier.
  • #64
  • Oct 22, 2010 12:38pm Oct 22, 2010 12:38pm
Possibly not the most helpful response, but I figured out the things I wanted most when I thought I was going to die. Being badly injured and in loads of pain, there came a day I had to ask myself seriously if I really wanted to stick around in this world and fight, and if so, what for. The answers to those questions are why I'm still alive, and why I do everything I do.

Many of them are just like DK's answers - time to spend with loved ones, the ability to make healthier choices, etc. It's the simple stuff that's the hardest to hold onto. Then there's the particular shape that those dreams take for me, but that's still secondary to the fact that dream is made up of those simple things.

K.

Quoting Karol
Well,
that's great wisdom you know. I wonder if you are willing to share how specifically you dig in and find out what you really want. Not some of the normal stuff that are in our heads due to the reason we allow them to be there but are not our own choices.
Some of us been trained loooong years to seek security, job and all sort of familiar things. How you find what is really in your heart. Say one loves trading. Trading itself is means to get to something else something deeper. Trading provides something to traders- achievement enjoyment...
[/quote]
  • #65
  • Edited 1:17pm Oct 22, 2010 1:16pm | Edited 1:17pm
Quoting DKallDAY
Many people, including myself, do it for financial freedom.
DK, I don't mean to get down on you, as I like your posts, but that whole thing was a load of tripe.

If spending time with the people you love is of value, then you must simply choose to do it, not set some arbitrary "financial independence threshold" at which you will then be capable of it.

Same thing for philanthropy.
Same thing for eating well, and exercising.

It's much harder to make the choice than to make excuses, but once you do it, you will find out just how many choices were yours all along to make.

You are putting the cart before the horse.

If I let finances dictate the quality of my life, then those who provide my funding (employers or clients) control my outcomes.

That is not acceptable to me.
  • #66
  • Oct 22, 2010 1:39pm Oct 22, 2010 1:39pm
Quoting Low
DK, I don't mean to get down on you, as I like your posts, but that whole thing was a load of tripe.
Well I'm glad you like my posts=) and ya it's okay to disagree. I think you must first be honest with yourself though with how the world works.

Quoting Low
If spending time with the people you love is of value, then you must simply choose to do it, not set some arbitrary "financial independence threshold" at which you will then be capable of it.

Same thing for philanthropy.
Same thing for eating well, and exercising.
My dad made that choice although it wasn't to spend time with his family, he actually sacrificed our quality of life for his selfish values. Much like myself, he is an "entrepreneur" although for him it's not about the money, it's about the feeling he gets from it. He quit a modest $60k a year job to start his own business with terribly flawed economics backing it. When our family of 4 ended up only netting $18k a year with a father who was busting 60-80 hours a week and hundreds of thousands in debt... needless to say the food stamps, empty carb and calorie cheap mcdonalds meals, and free clothes while worrying about getting our house foreclosed was a tad bit stressful of an environment to grow up in. Without the financial stability there, all four of our lives were tumbling out of balance.

Furthermore, like I said, spending time with family, eating well, exercising, all those things take TIME, and MONEY. On my own my $70 a month gym membership and all organic produce and protein shakes don't pay for themselves. A person without money could not afford to take care of themselves to that extent, or have the time to do it. They'd be working the whole time instead of focusing on the more important things in life, just to give them enough nourishment to stay alive and have a roof over their head. I know cause that's what I grew up in.

Quoting Low
If I let finances dictate the quality of my life, then those who provide my funding (employers or clients) control my outcomes.

That is not acceptable to me.
Well they don't control your outcomes, you control it, because as you said the choice is yours. Would you rather spend 40 hours a week at work? +10 hours commuting? +10 hours getting ready and winding down? or 40 hours with your family, eating healthily, exercising? etc. Unless you can fiscally afford it or are okay with barely having enough to stay alive, you just can't do it.


There are two main dynamics to the world. You provide something to the world (a service or creation) that others need, and others provide you back with something you need. Currency is the foundation that equates this theoretical equality of exchanged services. Employers need you to work, they compensate in pay. You need food, you compensate someone to provide you with it with pay. They need what your employer offers, they compensate the employer with the pay. Trading is in a sense immoral because rather than participating in the give and take, you sustain to only take. Needless to say, you're taking from others who have the same immoral goal of only taking, but the point is you provide nothing to society but get everything back, if successful. You compensate others but are never compensated back for something you have provided to others.

Wow what a tangent of a post, haha.
  • #67
  • Oct 22, 2010 2:43pm Oct 22, 2010 2:43pm
Quoting DKallDAY

Wow what a tangent of a post, haha.......

Well, it's almost the weekend....traders get bored when the market is closed

I can see how your childhood experience would lead you to your conclusions, clearly, your father did not make the right choice, but I still believe my own opinions, which are a product of my own experience.

An anecdote:

Years ago my mother was commuting 1.5 hours each way to a job that she hated, and didn't pay that well. I asked her "while looking for a job that pays better, couldn't you find one you hate just as much and pays just as poorly close to home?"

She did. And that gave her back 3 hours a day.

Eventually, she had to commute again, but this time to a job she liked, has bennies, and pays well.

So there is something to be said for not simply putting up with everything you're supposed to in order to "succeed".
  • #68
  • Oct 22, 2010 3:33pm Oct 22, 2010 3:33pm
Quoting Low
Well, it's almost the weekend....traders get bored when the market is closed
I'm so sick right now and haven't even left the house in two days... Needless to say I'm a little bit bored and lonely! haha

Quoting Low
I can see how your childhood experience would lead you to your conclusions, clearly, your father did not make the right choice, but I still believe my own opinions, which are a product of my own experience.
That's a beautiful fact of life right there. Everyone's experiences individually shape their own reality.

And about your mom, that's awesome. I don't know why people feel so "trapped" in situations they're not forced into.
  • #69
  • Oct 22, 2010 10:53pm Oct 22, 2010 10:53pm
"Unless you can fiscally afford it or are okay with barely having enough to stay alive, you just can't do it." This has been supported by my experience ... and basic thermodynamics I think. Can't get something for nothing. No free rides, etc. (How many people have said that on this very thread?) Of course, that doesn't mean there's only one way to afford things. But one still has to find -some- mode of financial ability 99.999% of the time. There have been people who've broke the mold though. There's a guy who ran around picking up empty milk jugs in Mexico, threw them in a net, put some dirt, sand, and vegetation on top of it, and floated it out as a self-sustaining island. In my case, I fall into "are okay with barely having enough to stay alive". Except I'm not real okay with it, and in my case the choice was thrust upon me by a failing, injured body that pushed me out of fulltime work. The time since has been spent largely trying to move into "fiscally affording" the existence I've managed to save.

"Trading is in a sense immoral because rather than participating in the give and take, you sustain to only take."

I don't really see it that way. Society itself is arguably immoral in that it is designed largely to take (and this is a matter of total subjective opinion; plus it probably depends a lot where you sit in that society). And I would argue that many do not give so much as simply are taken-from. Plus, what you do with all that cash you win trading is up to you. Generally your broker is the losing party on the other side of a trade you win, not some guy sitting at his own trading platform ... the money you win has a very dispersed source. There's nothing to stop you from giving it back later to charitable causes, etc, either - or using your winnings to create something of technological or aesthetic value that will give far more to the masses or individuals than the same money would've in the hands of corporations.

Quoting DKallDAY
Unless you can fiscally afford it or are okay with barely having enough to stay alive, you just can't do it.


There are two main dynamics to the world....
  • #70
  • Oct 22, 2010 10:56pm Oct 22, 2010 10:56pm
Quoting Low
I can see how your childhood experience would lead you to your conclusions, clearly, your father did not make the right choice, but I still believe my own opinions, which are a product of my own experience.
There's nothing better than the chance to rethink ground assumptions from the differing experiences of others!

This thread pretty much -is- a tangent. I'm not even sure it's in the right forum.
  • #71
  • Oct 23, 2010 2:47am Oct 23, 2010 2:47am
Quoting kcardinalis
There have been people who've broke the mold though. There's a guy who ran around picking up empty milk jugs in Mexico, threw them in a net, put some dirt, sand, and vegetation on top of it, and floated it out as a self-sustaining island.
I literally was thinking about that while I was writing that post. That guy is exceptionally introverted. The lack of socialization is enjoyable for him, haha. I could never do that.

Quoting kcardinalis
I don't really see it that way. Society itself is arguably immoral in that it is designed largely to take (and this is a matter of total subjective opinion; plus it probably depends a lot where you sit in that society). And I would argue that many do not give so much as simply are taken-from.
I don't necessarily agree with that... (btw I'm loving this life-philosophical discussion, haha)... What do you mean by "do not give so much as simply are taken-from?" Like could you give some examples? Are you referring to taxes, jobs, or another part of society? What is being taken from them?

Quoting kcardinalis
Generally your broker is the losing party on the other side of a trade you win, not some guy sitting at his own trading platform ... the money you win has a very dispersed source.
You know I don't actually know how the physical dynamics of the Forex market work, I do however know that the bolded statement is only for bucketshops and book maker "brokerages," but for those of us that use ECN's like MB or IB, we are being connected with another 3rd party.

I've taught a lot of "stock classes" on mic for a couple forum chat rooms and every new trader always tries to justify what they are doing like it's good for the world, but it's not, hahaha. They try to compare stock trading to having a job (because that's the only other money vehicle they are aware of) and therefore are being productive. Generally in a stock trade though, it is you directly versus another guy sitting at his own trading platform, or a firm with someone's retirement plan money behind it. My personal justification is that it is kill or be killed, the person you make lose is trying to do the exact same thing to you. When you buy, you're hoping to buy from someone selling at a loss, when you sell you hope to sell to someone who will incur a loss so you can keep profit. That stands true for everyone, even the 401k plan that you helped destroy. If it were their way they would have the money you scrambled up to trade with and a fatter retirement plan.
  • #72
  • Oct 23, 2010 3:01am Oct 23, 2010 3:01am
Quoting kcardinalis
Generally your broker is the losing party on the other side of a trade you win, not some guy sitting at his own trading platform ... the money you win has a very dispersed source...
This is not true. Your broker makes money off of the spread or commissions, even though they are the counterparty to your transaction, because they have to hedge their net exposure in the interbank market to keep their books flat. They can also alter their interbank position to bet for or against the traders they have on their own books, but they stand just as good a chance of losing that bet as you and I.

An example being: let's say a broker's clients average a 50% win rate, so when 50% of their traders are short the euro, as the counterparty, they are now long the euro by the net position value of their traders. And if those 50% happen to be right, the broker stands to lose a good bit of money. So the broker needs to short the euro in the interbank market as much as their traders have to keep the book flat.

Any further bets they take after that are on them.

Just because the broker is your counterparty, doesn't mean they actively work against you. It's not good for business if you go broke. What is good for business is encouraging more short-term strats since their money is made from the spread and/or commissions, therefore the more you trade the more they make.

Anyways, just some clarity. Yes there are disreputable bucketshops out there, but a broker who manages their books responsibly, won't care if you win or lose.
  • #73
  • Oct 23, 2010 3:07am Oct 23, 2010 3:07am
Quoting Low
This is not true. Your broker makes money off of the spread or commissions, even though they are the counterparty to your transaction, because they have to hedge their net exposure in the interbank market to keep their books flat. They can also alter their interbank position to bet for or against the traders they have on their own books, but they stand just as good a chance of losing that bet as you and I.

An example being: let's say a broker's clients average a 50% win rate, so when 50% of their traders are short the euro, as the counterparty,...
  • #74
  • Oct 23, 2010 1:28pm Oct 23, 2010 1:28pm
Thanks for the clarification. I've always been a little hazy on this topic (it tends to be oversimplified wherever I see it explained).

But I definitely didn't meant to say "your broker's out to get you"!

Quoting Low
This is not true. Your broker makes money off of the spread or commissions, even though they are the counterparty to your transaction, because they have to hedge their net exposure in the interbank market to keep their books flat. They can also alter their interbank position to bet for or against the traders they have on their own books, but they stand just as good a chance of losing that bet as you and I.

An example being: let's say a broker's clients average a 50% win rate, so when 50% of their traders are short the euro, as the counterparty,...
  • #75
  • Oct 23, 2010 1:47pm Oct 23, 2010 1:47pm
Quoting DKallDAY
I don't necessarily agree with that... (btw I'm loving this life-philosophical discussion, haha)... What do you mean by "do not give so much as simply are taken-from?" Like could you give some examples? Are you referring to taxes, jobs, or another part of society? What is being taken from them?
Taking taxes as an example ... I have nothing against the idea that I pay taxes into a system that uses those taxes in a way that benefits me--ie. education, healthcare, defense if necessary, roadwork. but ... when you pay taxes and they're given to failing banks (which in turn, realizing they're not fiscally liable for their poor decisions, go on screwing people), that, to me, is being taken-from. In the case of the banks, you could argue many of the people they've screwed had it coming for similar poor decisions, but there's a lot of folks who -didn't- take out huge mortgages on properties they can't afford who are being screwed now too, both by the banks' continued actions against others and the fact that the money wasn't fed back into the consumer economy. I do get that there's no perfect way to manage anything, particularly such an enormous country, but there's countries I think do it better than the US.

As to jobs ... again, I think ultimately you can blame the pool of labour in many ways for being willign to work for crap wages their whole lives in jobs they hate. That feeds and reinforces the system. But it is pretty hard (as we're discussing) to break out of that, and neither institutions nor that labour pool itself is much help. I have this crazy theory that I can give real, solid value to society by doing things I love - as much or more value as by doing something I hate. Depending what you love though, it can be pretty difficult to get a foothold - not because there's no market, but because finding the market is a challenge in itself and the pitfalls while searching are tremendous. I suspect you're already familiar with the self employment tax brackets - but if you add up self employment and income tax, you're in a 30% tax bracket if you make more than 400$ a year (before that it's nothing and you're considered a hobbyist). But that means if you make 401$ in a year, the government takes a third of it, and then gives it to a bank that gives you nothing (and in my case, takes my landlord's house). It's like trying to bust through the middle-class tax bracket, only it happens a lot sooner if you're not working for someone else directly. if you made 401$ that year, you're pretty screwed regardless, but it's possible to make just enough to pay your rent and bills and not go homeless but not enough to compensate for that 30%. I now factor the 30% as a cost of doing business, but even so, it's pretty hard to let your internet (and only source of income) go dead or your food disappear when you have that cash sitting around in your house marked "someone elses' money."

Just as you justify your trading by figuring the other guy knows what he's in for and it's kill-or-be-killed ... most of my life has shown me that it's kill-or-be-killed most everywhere. There have been some individuals in my life who have really done me good turns, large and small, but by and large it's been like an ongoing war - not against hate but sheer indifference. I think for me the biggest thing is to not take that personally. I find I'm much happier though when I can accept that that's just the way it is, and that my job is to win anyway and to find somehow the people to whom I can exchange value. Railing at the dark won't make it light, but building a lantern might.

I recognize too that this isn't everyone's experience. For me the real measure of it came at a time that my life was on the line and there was no person or institution on earth that would step in and lend me a hand. Other people have been more fortunate. But what doesn't kill me makes me stronger.
  • #76
  • Oct 23, 2010 2:14pm Oct 23, 2010 2:14pm
Okay that's what I was looking for.

Completely agreed in that retrospect. Great example.

There was another thread where there was a brief discussion and agreement on how we loved Ron Paul, and I found out the coined term for my political stance is "Reagan Democrat," but it is a shame that the money we hand over to taxes quite often isn't distributed properly.

Quoting kcardinalis
Taking taxes as an example ... I have nothing against the idea that I pay taxes into a system that uses those taxes in a way that benefits me--ie. education, healthcare, defense if necessary, roadwork....
  • #77
  • Oct 23, 2010 3:26pm Oct 23, 2010 3:26pm
I think how I'd like taxes to work where possible is to tax things that relate to where those taxes go. Like ... tax gasoline, and send that tax to roadwork. That way the people who use the roads most pay for the roadwork, which benefits them, and spares the wallets of people who use public transit or walk (and this is coming from someone who loves to drive). not sure how that could be applied to issues like healthcare though.

What are your tax distribution thoughts?

I also would probably be happier in a smaller country altogether, so that my vote would count more relative to the whole.

Quoting DKallDAY
Okay that's what I was looking for.

Completely agreed in that retrospect. Great example.

There was another thread where there was a brief discussion and agreement on how we loved Ron Paul, and I found out the coined term for my political stance is "Reagan Democrat," but it is a shame that the money we hand over to taxes quite often isn't distributed properly.
  • #78
  • Oct 23, 2010 4:29pm Oct 23, 2010 4:29pm
I'm kinda busy today so this will be a short reply... buttt

completely agreed.

My state doesn't use tolls for many of the major highways, and the subject has been continuously brought up. Everyone wants to use the highways... no one wants to pay for them... In a little over a week we will decide if we make the first step to throwing away our fair use taxes (taxing many things in small amounts) for a state income tax. This frustrates many because those that consume more's taxes should go down, and those that consume less' taxes should go up.=p

personally I am in favor of a european style taxation which slaps a fat huge tax right off the top and does away with many of the smaller use and local taxes. Part of running a business is making things as efficient as possible. Distributing taxes to 10,000 different places probably creates more work, paperwork, and work to track than one fat tax off the top... in other words... it's more expensive to do the fair use.

Quoting kcardinalis
I think how I'd like taxes to work where possible is to tax things that relate to where those taxes go....
  • #79
  • Oct 23, 2010 5:15pm Oct 23, 2010 5:15pm
I reckon that's how they deal with the health and education over there. I'm pretty certain I want to move to Europe eventually, but have yet to pick out a country.

Quoting DKallDAY
I'm kinda busy today so this will be a short reply... buttt

completely agreed.

My state doesn't use tolls for many of the major highways, and the subject has been continuously brought up....
  • #80
  • Oct 23, 2010 6:17pm Oct 23, 2010 6:17pm
Quoting kcardinalis
I reckon that's how they deal with the health and education over there. I'm pretty certain I want to move to Europe eventually, but have yet to pick out a country.
Sweden ftw.
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