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Vote: Adding Rule for Commercial Members

  • #81
  • Sep 21, 2010 8:24am Sep 21, 2010 8:24am
Quoting winsor
billflet,

I have to give it to you and the senior guys on the forum as you guys are very thorough with your homework. Yes, these are my results, but they are projected returns per Asaf's detailed explanation. These numbers must be divided down to show actual results.
Winsor,

You are taking a very dangerous approach relying on the word of these amateurs to validate your site - they will jump at you like dogs if someone here will dare to mention that:

1) You don't have proper disclaimers on your website
2) Performance is not shown according to best practices for money managers
3) It's unclear from your website under which regulations do you fall under if any.
4) It's unclear what is your privacy and security policy and how you handle broker password (This is a big issue for regulators BTW)

Now - I know that you are an honest person and a very good and conservative trader and the business structure you have with currensee is properly defines, regulated, secured and transparent (and yes there is some room for improvement on the performance metrics). But these people here are taking a very dangerous approach as they wouldn't know a good money manager if he was standing right next to them.

-- Asaf.
  • #82
  • Sep 21, 2010 8:27am Sep 21, 2010 8:27am
Quoting traderjai_inhi
What gives you the right to ask this type of question when you, yourself, refuse to answer.

It has been asked by Billflet several times... Just what exactly IS your old username? Lets just forget for a second that this would be a case of having multiple user names (which is also a no-no). But instead of answering you just ban him from your threads.

http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?p=4021571

Transparency... HA
traderjai,

I've been asked by the CEO of FF to focus on the products we offer and not talk at all about anything that has to do with me personally. FF is about anonymity, abuse, and violence.

If you want you can email him directly.

-- Asaf.
  • #83
  • Sep 21, 2010 12:07pm Sep 21, 2010 12:07pm
Quoting asafyigal
Winsor,

You are taking a very dangerous approach relying on the word of these amateurs to validate your site - they will jump at you like dogs if someone here will dare to mention that:

1) You don't have proper disclaimers on your website
2) Performance is not shown according to best practices for money managers
3) It's unclear from your website under which regulations do you fall under if any.
4) It's unclear what is your privacy and security policy and how you handle broker password (This is a big issue for regulators BTW)

Now - I know that...
Winsor, you sure associate yourself with nice businesses, I wonder what he would do if he were your enemy.
  • #84
  • Sep 21, 2010 12:11pm Sep 21, 2010 12:11pm
Quoting asafyigal
....
FF is about anonymity, abuse, and violence.

-- Asaf.
Say what? http://cdn.forexfactory.com/images/s..._the_floor.gifhttp://cdn.forexfactory.com/images/s..._the_floor.gif http://cdn.forexfactory.com/images/s..._the_floor.gif
  • #85
  • Sep 21, 2010 1:01pm Sep 21, 2010 1:01pm
There is a very basic things that people like wwwin who's described by others here as someone whose ignorance knows no limit" like in here (http://www.forexfactory.com/showpost...&postcount=487) or in here (http://www.forexfactory.com/showpost...&postcount=481) and it's well know in this forums that he and his buddies are just here to harass people and on the other hand are promoting people that treat them nicely and help him hide his ignorance.

What they are doing here, judging business without the proper ability to do so is very dangerous and they help spread the scams in the Forex industry and it makes them feel very strong like they are the protectors of the universe.

We at Currensee on the other hand are making sure we partner with the honest and reliable partners that can actually prove themselves by our standards and we actively work to find people that want to invest in the excellent traders.

The last time I looked Winsor had 6 people investing in him on Currensee and he is ranked number 3 as he has a very modest risk profile. I can guarantee than in 6 months from now we would find much more money to invest in him than he can find by having ignorant people give him a big hug.

-- Asaf.
  • #86
  • Edited 2:29pm Sep 21, 2010 1:58pm | Edited 2:29pm
Quoting asafyigal
The last time I looked Winsor had 6 people investing in him on Currensee and he is ranked number 3 as he has a very modest risk profile. I can guarantee than in 6 months from now we would find much more money to invest in him than he can find by having ignorant people give him a big hug.

-- Asaf.
So you are finding U.S. investors for someone that is not registered with the CFTC?

As you state above re: winsor,...
"1) You don't have proper disclaimers on your website
2) Performance is not shown according to best practices for money managers
3) It's unclear from your website under which regulations do you fall under if any."

New Rules
http://www.forextoolshop.com/blog/36...ions-breakdown
"The new rules state that all persons or entities that are soliciting over the counter retail forex trading must register with the CFTC and NFA as either a futures commission merchants (FCM's), retail foreign exchange dealers (RFED's), introducing brokers (IB's), commodity trading advisors (CTA's), commodity pool operators (CPO's) or associated persons (AP's) of any of the aforementioned groups. Previously only FCMs and FREDs were required to be registered. What this essentially means is that there should be oversight and more accountability for brokers and money managers. More regulation of this nature is a good thing for Forex, which has gained a reputation of being a potentially unsafe industry to be trading in, particularly because it has been moderately regulated at best."
  • #87
  • Sep 21, 2010 3:41pm Sep 21, 2010 3:41pm
Quoting wwwin
So you are finding U.S. investors for someone that is not registered with the CFTC?

As you state above re: winsor,...
"1) You don't have proper disclaimers on your website
2) Performance is not shown according to best practices for money managers
3) It's unclear from your website under which regulations do you fall under if any."

New Rules
http://www.forextoolshop.com/blog/36...ions-breakdown
[b]"[i]The new rules state that all persons or entities that are soliciting over the counter retail...
Yes and we are regulated by the CFTC and by the NFA and by the FSA (England) to conduct business in Europe.

We are allowed to do the business we do and we have an agreement with Winsor that all he has to do is trade on his real account and we would replicate the trades to other investors wanting to make money like him.

Wisor himself does not need to be regulated because he is not dealing with the customer, the only thing he does is trade successfully.

-- Asaf.
  • #88
  • Sep 21, 2010 3:45pm Sep 21, 2010 3:45pm
Quoting asafyigal
Yes and we are regulated by the CFTC and by the NFA and by the FSA (England) to conduct business in Europe.

We are allowed to do the business we do and we have an agreement with Winsor that all he has to do is trade on his real account and we would replicate the trades to other investors wanting to make money like him.

Wisor himself does not need to be regulated because he is not dealing with the customer, the only thing he does is trade successfully.

-- Asaf.
That may be your interpretation, as it suits your needs, but the CFTC my not view it this way, after all, winsor is calling the shots and he is "associated" to you. At the very least he is an AP (associated person) if not a CTA (commodity trader advisor). Who is giving the trading advise, winsor or currensee?
  • #89
  • Sep 21, 2010 3:50pm Sep 21, 2010 3:50pm
Quoting wwwin
That may be your interpretation but the CFTC my not view it this way, after all, winsor is calling the shots and he is "affiliated" to you. At the very least he is an AP (affiliated person)
Well,

It's good that you are not responsible to interpret the rule as "your ignorance clearly knows no limit"

APs are people that soliciting customers and are in touch with them - Winsor is not bringing us customers, we bring customers to ourselves and in our platform we enable them to follow Winsor (and others for that matter) while compensating Winsor for his successful trading.

We enable great traders to build business in Forex separating them from the noise and allowing them to accumulate a lot of money under management very quickly once they prove themselves out. We take all the regulatory and legal burden in this case and we still pay the Trade Leaders all the success fees which they've earned.

Think of us like kaching or covestor for Forex.

-- Asaf.
  • #90
  • Edited 4:10pm Sep 21, 2010 3:54pm | Edited 4:10pm
Quoting asafyigal
Well,

It's good that you are not responsible to interpret the rule as "your ignorance clearly knows no limit"

APs are people that soliciting customers and are in touch with them - Winsor is not bringing us customers, we bring customers to ourselves and in our platform we enable them to follow Winsor (and others for that matter) while compensating Winsor for his successful trading.

We enable great traders to build business in Forex separating them from the noise and allowing them to accumulate a lot of money under management very quickly...
Well it is not as easy as you want it to be. If somebody sues winsor, are you going to back him up financially and pay a judgment against him? Do you even know if he has the ability to pay a judgment? I shall see what the CFTC has to say about this way of avoiding registration. Form over substance.

As far as who brings the investor in, is it not the "Trade Leaders" record that bring the investors in? If there were no "trade leaders" you could not bring any investor in to invest could you? Are you prohibiting winsor from having any form of communication with his followers?
  • #91
  • Sep 21, 2010 4:05pm Sep 21, 2010 4:05pm
Quoting wwwin
Well it is not as easy as you want it to be. If somebody sues winsor, are you going to back him up financially and pay a judgment against him? Do you even know if he has the ability to pay a judgment? I shall see what the CFTC has to say about this way of avoiding registration. Form over substance.
You are right, it's not simple but no one can Sue Winsor because there is no relationship between Winsor and the investor. an Investor can sue us for having Winsor in the program and we're protected against this both financially and legally but he can never sue Winsor (or any of the others)

-- Asaf.
  • #92
  • Sep 21, 2010 4:09pm Sep 21, 2010 4:09pm
Quoting wwwin
Well it is not as easy as you want it to be. If somebody sues winsor, are you going to back him up financially and pay a judgment against him? Do you even know if he has the ability to pay a judgment? I shall see what the CFTC has to say about this way of avoiding registration. Form over substance.
wwwin - the moment that you'd stop trying to find holes in what we do and really focus on the value that we potentially bring to the successful traders that are having a hard time standing out in this market. And focus on the value that we bring to the active Investors - the ones that know nothing about forex but want the opportunity to participate. You'd see that our goals are more aligned than you think.

-- Asaf.
  • #93
  • Sep 21, 2010 4:13pm Sep 21, 2010 4:13pm
Quoting asafyigal
You are right, it's not simple but no one can Sue Winsor because there is no relationship between Winsor and the investor. an Investor can sue us for having Winsor in the program and we're protected against this both financially and legally but he can never sue Winsor (or any of the others)

-- Asaf.
As far as who brings the investor in, is it not the "Trade Leaders" record that bring the investors in, unless it is in some way inflated? If there were no "trade leaders" you could not bring any investor in to invest could you? Are you prohibiting winsor from having any form of communication with his followers?
  • #94
  • Sep 21, 2010 4:21pm Sep 21, 2010 4:21pm
Quoting wwwin
As far as who brings the investor in, is it not the "Trade Leaders" record that bring the investors in? If there were no "trade leaders" you could not bring any investor in to invest could you? Are you prohibiting winsor from having any form of communication with his followers?
We are bringing the investors in, we have sales people and marketing people and we develop content to get people in and invest in the Trade Leaders. The trade leaders are not allowed, and we have it in their contracts, to solicit customers, refer people or to say anything other than show their performance on Currensee to other people.

The investors we have are completely separated from the Trade Leaders at this point, they cannot message them or chat with them and they don't know any details other than what the Trade Leader decided to expose about himself.

The situation is slightly different for active Forex traders that are also Investors, these traders are part of the Currensee social network and can invite the Trade Leaders to trade with them for free and see their positions in real time - in this case they can communicate with the Trade Leader but we monitor all communication and making sure the trade leaders don't solicit members with false claims like - "follow me - I'm the best one there"

We are still learning a lot and perfecting the system as we go but we already have people that have been investors for a few months now, even though we haven't launched yet, and are making nice returns.

-- Asaf.
  • #95
  • Sep 21, 2010 4:27pm Sep 21, 2010 4:27pm
Quoting asafyigal
We are bringing the investors in, we have sales people and marketing people and we develop content to get people in and invest in the Trade Leaders. The trade leaders are not allowed, and we have it in their contracts, to solicit customers, refer people or to say anything other than show their performance on Currensee to other people.

The investors we have are completely separated from the Trade Leaders at this point, they cannot message them or chat with them and they don't know any details other than what the Trade Leader decided to expose about...
Have you gotten a ruling from the CFTC that states that trade leaders, under the new rules, don't have to register?
  • #96
  • Last Post: Sep 21, 2010 4:50pm Sep 21, 2010 4:50pm
Quoting wwwin
Have you gotten a ruling from the CFTC that states that trade leaders, under the new rules, don't have to register?
We are working closely with the CFTC on this and they have busy with the new ruling so we don't have a final word from them.

When dealing with people that trade there are different levels of regulatory requirement and we have to see where we fit - just for the education the levels are:
1) Not registered - think of this as the system providers for Tradency or Zulutrade - if there is no interaction and the customer has full control over his own account
2) Registered as a Trading Principal - this is simple registration that entitles a questionnaire and fingerprints for background checks but require no exams and takes a few days to complete
3) Registered as a CTA - this is more difficult as you have to take the tests.

The biggest questions that the CFTC has are:
1) Who can access the money
2) Who can control the account
3) Can the investor overrule the Trade Leader
4) How is the compensation happening

We are, at this point, not offering the service in the US because we have to adapt to the non-hedging and FIFO rule which is enforced starting October 18th on all US traders. But I will definitely update you once we have final ruling from CFTC regardless if we're offering the service in the US or not.

-- Asaf.
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