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Trade Guider System VSA, fact or fiction?

  • #81
  • Apr 18, 2010 11:26pm Apr 18, 2010 11:26pm
MalcolmB,

Ok.. I think you are skirting an issue here and if you called the trades long before they happend then great.

Since you are a bit of a chart poster, I have a challenge for you.

Post what you see on the chart now and where it will be two points from now.

i:e that would be the retracement high and days close. .. but you have to post if before it happens because we are talking about the predictive nature of Volume as it is applied to forex.

I can already tell you the excuses you will use for this and how I don't understand because its a real time thing

You still have failed to find one low volume bar in the London session that you could have picked before the next volume bar. Since they seem to be so common according to the Trade Guider system it should have been very easy to accomplish.

Now if you cant do that, then given your outspoken criticism of my apparently flawed logic, then I would say your posts are not much more than empty harassment which apparently violates rule 1

The other challenge I extent to you, is to tell me why my logic on volume is incorrect?

Explain to the people how volume works in early hours as apposed to later hours or session times. Explain how it works in relation to filling their orders!

What is your view on volume as it applies to forex and where are the caveats for trading it?

If you can't come up with any credible logic to support your views, then I think this thread has done its job. So far you have come up with NONE.. Not one single piece.
  • #82
  • Apr 18, 2010 11:39pm Apr 18, 2010 11:39pm
Quoting lillelise
without having read the vsa thread....

the traderguider...
Great post,

So true, I hope the implications are seen by others.
  • #83
  • Apr 18, 2010 11:53pm Apr 18, 2010 11:53pm
Quoting asgard2
...........You still have failed to find one low volume bar in the London session that you could have picked before the next volume bar. Since they seem to be so common according to the Trade Guider system it should have been very easy to accomplish....
What are you saying here? VSA makes RELATIVE COMPARISONS on volume bars. It in no way attempts to forecast what volume will be on a subsequent bar; whether that bar be 2 hours or 2 days into the future.

VSA makes no assertions that it can predict the high of the bar or the close of a bar. VSA asks, "with x amount of volume, what did the market do? Did it close near the high or low? Was the range (Spread) in proportion to the volume used?"

Simply, VSA neither attempts nor does what you are saying it "can't" do. If you want to call VSA out, maybe you should spend some time and learn exactly what it is first.
Without VSA, you're playing checkers while the Smart Money plays chess.
  • #84
  • Apr 19, 2010 12:41am Apr 19, 2010 12:41am
Quoting HiddenGap

Simply, VSA neither attempts nor does what you are saying it "can't" do. If you want to call VSA out, maybe you should spend some time and learn exactly what it is first.
LOL.. good for you,

Of course it can't do it, and it can't do it for a high volume bar either which if far more important because how are you ever going to know that is the high volume bar before the day is finished? What is relative? I believe it is 20 bars but feel free to correct me.


Now isn't it true the first down bar that correlates to volume in this picture is a high volume bar? After all it is double the volume of the previous bar and at a high for the day greater than the 20 bars previous.

The next bar was an up bar, showing strength coming in after a wide range down bar... and where did the market go?

At that point were could it have gone?

What was your expected risk reward at that point? Was it higher than the expected DD

How could you have known that a further and higher volume bar was coming a couple of hours later?

If you did have a crystal ball and managed to know that, could you really tell given the day so far known who was buying or who was selling? should you have closed your trade assuming it was a winner? What indication was there this was a long and not a short?

Now after, each of the two highest volume down bars, there is a different result with regards to volume but the same result with regards to price.

Since retracements or retests come in on low volume bars.. doesn't it kind of blow the theory out of the water? I mean wasn't the retracement happening at around 1300hrs with low volume bars and the market should have closed down after that? Pretty clear that did not happen!

How much time did you have to enter the trade before you missed it? I believe the opportunity was gone on the first real retracement at the confirmation point.


Now, I looked at this theory and debunked in my brain so if my details are out it is because I didn't bother to memorize it.
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  • #85
  • Apr 19, 2010 12:44am Apr 19, 2010 12:44am
"If you want to read the books that I used for the foundation of my trading then.. I will send you a list via pm." I don't know if Malcomb14 took you up on this offer but I'm keen to check the list out if your offer is extended to others.
  • #86
  • Apr 19, 2010 12:50am Apr 19, 2010 12:50am
Quoting Hal2611
"If you want to read the books that I used for the foundation of my trading then.. I will send you a list via pm." I don't know if Malcomb14 took you up on this offer but I'm keen to check the list out if your offer is extended to others.
Sure mate.. I will do up a list of my favorites and send it through
  • #87
  • Apr 19, 2010 1:03am Apr 19, 2010 1:03am
Quoting HiddenGap
...... maybe you should spend some time and learn exactly what it is first.
HG, this has been said to him on numerous occasions. I think trying to argue with someone who doesnt have a clue what they is talking about nor can articulate their thoughts in a logical manner is a waste of time.

It is pointless arguing with a fool as they will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Boxing clever since 76.
  • #88
  • Apr 19, 2010 1:20am Apr 19, 2010 1:20am
Quoting asgard2

Now, I looked at this theory and debunked in my brain so if my details are out it is because I didn't bother to memorize it.
hahaha this is a wind up isn't?

I am embarrassed for you if its not. How can you engage in an argument with someone when you dont know anything about the subject. You have just admitted it.

It would have been good to have a logical argument about VSA with someone who in is knowledgeable about the subject.

Boxing clever since 76.
  • #89
  • Apr 19, 2010 1:23am Apr 19, 2010 1:23am
Quoting copi88

It is pointless arguing with a fool as they will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
I am ok with the fool ticket but you have simply come here and given no more than the rest of the supporters in the way of logic.

Please outline to the people here the relevance of volume in the market with regards to session hours, order flow and the impact that may or may not be the result from those anomalies.

How about you explain what volume is and the actual difference between forex volume and the volumes of other markets the Trade Guider system was designed for originally and the possible outcome of blindly trading it as if it were the same.

While you are at it can you explain why you are using language foreign to forex users to describe what already has an accepted and dominant terminology familiar to forex users?

Most importantly can you explain why you do not to present evidence to the contrary.

It is easy to call someone a fool and it takes no talent as far as I can see. It is far more difficult to see the reason for the tag.

Why do you care? Do you have a motive that might explain your behavior?

I am not unhappy to be called a fool, it can only mean one thing in the given context
  • #90
  • Apr 19, 2010 2:12am Apr 19, 2010 2:12am
Quoting asgard2
MalcolmB,....
Post what you see on the chart now and where it will be two points from now....

u are asking too much. VSA-ers are no fortune tellers

just one question,
are u attacking VSA per se, or Trade Guider VSA? Kindly clarify
Thanks
  • #91
  • Apr 19, 2010 2:22am Apr 19, 2010 2:22am
Quoting asgard2
...Please outline to the people here the relevance of volume in the market with regards to session hours, order flow and the impact that may or may not be the result from those anomalies.
VSA tells us that some sessions have lower volume than others. Low volume signals have to be viewed in light of this fact. Yet, since volume is looked at relatively, there can be relative high volume in a low volume environment (i.e. low volume period).

Quoting asgard2
...How about you explain what volume is and the actual difference between forex volume and the volumes of other markets the Trade Guider system was designed for originally and the possible outcome of blindly trading it as if it were the same.
Volume, whether actual contract volume or tick volume is nothing more than activity. VSA looks at the activity of the professional side of the market. Again, VSA is less concerned with the absolute number of the volume bar, but rather with relative comparisons. "Is this volume bar greater than the previous volume bar"? "Is this the highest volume bar I can see on my chart?" "With weakness in the background, is this up bar on volume less then the previous two bars"?

Quoting asgard2
...While you are at it can you explain why you are using language foreign to forex users to describe what already has an accepted and dominant terminology familiar to forex users?
Tom is English and in England the term for range is spread. VSA predates the retail forex market where the term spread developed so brokers can say the don't charge commissions.

Give me a break if this is truly a sticking point for you.
Without VSA, you're playing checkers while the Smart Money plays chess.
  • #92
  • Apr 19, 2010 2:42am Apr 19, 2010 2:42am
Quoting asgard2
.....
While you are at it can you explain why you are using language foreign to forex users to describe what already has an accepted and dominant terminology familiar to forex users? ...
i dont see a problem with that. no one has a monopoly of words.
u just have to be openminded.

for example, the word "toilet".
that word is not used all over the world. it has some language equivalents or substitutes.
in other countries,
toilet = 'commode', 'toilet', 'CR' or 'comfort room', rest room etc etc
in our country, it is also called 'banyo', 'CR', 'kubeta'


Quoting HiddenGap
VSA....
Give me a break if this is truly a sticking point for you.
u are very fortunate Sir HiddenGap, malcolmb14 & all the others made time to explain/post.
  • #93
  • Apr 19, 2010 2:50am Apr 19, 2010 2:50am
Quoting supremeChaos

u are asking too much. VSA-ers are no fortune tellers

just one question,
are u attacking VSA per se, or Trade Guider VSA? Kindly clarify
Thanks
I am not attacking anything and good luck to people that say they have success.

Certainly I am not denying the value of volume as it applies to forex. I am saying that some interpretation is wanting before hard and fast rules regarding it are used for entering trades in Forex.

It is important that it is well understood.

Example, say you are in a Market Maker pool of new traders.. the MM will open a trade to hedge your trade. Millions perhaps, of these traders will add to volume but not add to spread. In addition theoretically, the volume is counted as double for each actual trader in the pool by default

Volume is nothing to do with transactions traded, it is a count of how many times the price changed to accommodate the traders orders at a particular time.

So the knock on effect is that inside quiet hours the price can be changed to suit to goal of the market makers and not necessarily be an indication of amount of activity.

It is possible to have high volume bars with lesser activity registered simply because the price was not inclined to increase or decrease and continued in the same direction.

My original goal was to try to suggest some improvement to the system so it may have more application within the forex environment.

High volume in my experience does not mean the absence of a retest in fact, it appears to mean the opposite. This is another of those maybe questions that needs some analysis to put the question to rest.

Of course we all know now, if not before, if you have anything to say it must be said in agreement with those that run the Trade Guider thread.

If not.. well we have all seen what happens
  • #94
  • Apr 19, 2010 2:53am Apr 19, 2010 2:53am
& where is this 'Trade Guider thread'?
  • #95
  • Apr 19, 2010 3:08am Apr 19, 2010 3:08am
Quoting supremeChaos
just one question,
are u attacking VSA per se, or Trade Guider VSA? Kindly clarify
Thanks
I think his problem is with the tradeguider software itself, rather than with vsa in general.

Problem is he started this discussion IN the VSA thread, which is not related to tradeguider nor promotes that software... and that way, he obviously picked up a fight.

Quoting asgard2
Please outline to the people here the relevance of volume in the market with regards to session hours, order flow and the impact that may or may not be the result from those anomalies.

How about you explain what volume is and the actual difference between forex volume and the volumes of other markets the Trade Guider system was designed for originally and the possible outcome of blindly trading it as if it were the same.
As I said above, and only because you have started this discussion in the VSA thread and, in a way, to draw a clear line between the VSA thread and tradeguider software, let me tell you that this has been addressed and cleared many many times in the thread...

You speak about the danger for new traders to jump on this without knowing or questioning such facts, but if such traders do read the thread from the beginning (I guess reading the first post might just do it), they will be informed of such facts, differences, etc.

Quoting asgard2
While you are at it can you explain why you are using language foreign to forex users to describe what already has an accepted and dominant terminology familiar to forex users?
HiddenGap has explained it - the original terms come from British writers, and it's no secret... all available in the literature and videos about it.
People just have to read it to know and be informed.

I have no time, nor the necessary English knowledge to pursue such rich (in terms) discussion with you guys - you are obviously from English language countries, but I'm not.
I just thought I should add my 2 cents.
  • #96
  • Apr 19, 2010 4:26am Apr 19, 2010 4:26am
Quoting tonirai
I think his problem is with the tradeguider software itself, rather than with vsa in general.
No, it is neither.. I have a problem the way Trade Guider is promoted to the less informed.

It is not fool proof and if you make a mistake reading the patterns promoted, you are not inept or incompetent. The patterns are re_explained post event to fit the theory!

The phycology behind the system leads people to think they have misinterpreted the charts. Of course the charts never lie!

All the while it appears, the patterns (regular forex candlestick patterns) are concealed within bar charts to confuse the uninitiated. Its conceivable, they have altered the accepted terminology to accommodate and further the same goal.

Any new trader would do equally well reading steve nissons book on candlestick trading for forex and I might speculate would probably be better off and would certainly be far more up to date for 2010.

I failed to find, any informed explanation of the differences in volume in the Trade Guider thread. Rather "just swap it for activity" with no thought or effort to elaborate on that view. The implication is that it can be swapped and interchangeably with no ramifications to the trader.

Equally. there has been no effort to clear it up here from their perspective. I have seen not a single post that offers any logical rebuttal to to my arguments on volume.

Again.. if it is working for you, great but if you come here to maintain it works in the form of a rebuttal, at least have the grace to tender some logical or informed thinking for your side of the debate.

If you can not manage to tender a logical argument about volume.. then really you have come to the wrong thread.

You need to be in the other one where every body agrees the system is great and we all know we're right because we make so much money Sorry, I couldn't help myself.. some things amuse me too!
  • #97
  • Apr 19, 2010 5:27am Apr 19, 2010 5:27am
Quoting asgard2
Now, I looked at this theory and debunked in my brain so if my details are out it is because I didn't bother to memorize it.
http://www.slowchildrenimprov.com/ol...t_no_title.gif
Boxing clever since 76.
  • #98
  • Apr 21, 2010 12:55am Apr 21, 2010 12:55am
Now tell me vsa does not work

BTW tradeguider picked all this up .

Just cause you do not understand it do not knock it.

http://www.forexfactory.com/attachme...hmentid=461609
Blogging daily now at www.volume.zone
  • #99
  • Edited 2:51am Apr 21, 2010 2:36am | Edited 2:51am
Quoting malcolmb14

Just cause you do not understand it do not knock it.
For Heavens sake buddy..

I think my level of comprehension is equal to yours. Certainly it is impossible for you to know what I understand and presumptuous to think you do.

I think you should do what you want to do and believe what you want to believe.

It will take some evidence or logic to change my mind.. a couple of trades won is not evidence. For Example;

This is an EA I was developing... check the number of winning trades ...

http://rapidshare.com/files/328262516/FxPro_-Real.rar
and its no good!
  • #100
  • May 1, 2010 8:47pm May 1, 2010 8:47pm
Quoting asgard2
No, it is neither.. I have a problem the way Trade Guider is promoted to the less informed.
It is not fool proof and if you make a mistake reading the patterns promoted, you are not inept or incompetent. Sorry, I couldn't help myself.. some things amuse me too!
I think for people like you even a pen is not fool proof you can swallow the pen an die! or you can crash in your not-fool-proof car, may be weapons are fool proof? You definitely can break a leg if you jump the wrong way so jumping skills are not fool proof either.
To avoid all this bad things happen you have the BRAIN! If you can't use it or if the brain is not powerful enough it's not a jumping rules, car, pen or VSA problem!
All the methods gave their target group....with required skills, psychology, money etc. Also it's no "one size fits all" for forex.....so trade your method and let people trade their even if you think they will loose their money! Everybody has own Brain and money, why you trying to manage this resources for others??
Are you trying to play people like in Avatar?

P.S. Casino is place where very little % of people win...a lot have their play systems, go tell everybody it's a bad systems!
“buy the rumor, sell the news”
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