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Domino's Price and order flow trading

  • #481
  • Apr 10, 2010 9:16am Apr 10, 2010 9:16am
hello.
no offence.
hindsight everthing works.
can any one post live trades next week. with ur results?
  • #482
  • Apr 10, 2010 9:19am Apr 10, 2010 9:19am
Quoting hornet
say you manipulated the market and you pushed it up to sell at a higher level.... and you have loads to sell, you would start to sell at a level where you expect stops to get triggered, you would want to fill those stops. slowly and surely without people noticing. then you will start pushing the market down hard and fast getting help form the breakout buyers getting their stops triggered. (double whammy !!!!) so you will have taken us, poor suckers, out both ways.....and that happens a lot. actually, it happens all day long on intraday trading...
when it heppens please post ur trades here.(not hindsight).it will be vary helpfull for newbie like me.i will appericiate that.
thank you
  • #483
  • Apr 10, 2010 9:27am Apr 10, 2010 9:27am
Quoting hornet
not just stops but breakout orders also. the point is expecting getting the move to accelerate, pick up momentum, when those orders get triggered. helping me getting to my target. using maket dynamics to work in you favor.
I agree, all I'm saying is that most PA does not support this idea. There are a series of long up bars within a move which would indicate that these orders are not as clustered as we think but sporadically placed. This could be due to how the market absorbs the orders as well. Maybe the dealers execute them in chunks in an attempt to transfer the inventory to other customers.

I heard someone say once that the dealers make the spread by simply trading at their bid and ask prices alone, but to my knowledge, the only way they make the spread is if they offset their position on the opposite side of the market before price changes. When they fill an order their position is at 0 +/-, and if they offset the position with an opposite order then they make 1 pip in EU for example. The moment price changes they are -1 or worse.

As I watch price move day in and day out if baffles me how the dealers can pull this off, especially in a fast moving market. I've shopped around for books on dealing to gain more of an understanding of how they survive but have come up with nothing. Is the orderflow really two sided enough that they make decent money on spreads? If anybody here has ever traded in a real market with limit orders you know it's not easy, it's really hard to imagine what dealers are doing different to give them an edge, because that's all they are doing also (trading mainly via limit orders).Say you went to the futures market and quoted a two sided market, chances are you'd be filled on one side right away and be run over before your position was offset..How do dealers do it?
  • #484
  • Apr 10, 2010 9:28am Apr 10, 2010 9:28am
Quoting jolany
hello.
no offence.
hindsight everthing works.
can any one post live trades next week. with ur results?
This is a free public forum my friend...You get whats here. Beggars can't be choosers.
  • #485
  • Apr 10, 2010 9:35am Apr 10, 2010 9:35am
Quoting hornet
actually, it happens all day long on intraday trading
Imagining what players are doing and why they're doing it is certainly a romantic notion, but is there really any way to know in advance? Heck, other traders in the same company don't know what other traders are doing, I remember reading an article/post somewhere about two departments having opposing positions (probably in different markets but hey). Now if they don't talk to each other how in the world are we supposed to know!

Take the charts Ted1983 and Domino posted, beautiful trends, perfect, and easily tradeable, but where are all these players messing with our trades and taking us out? They're nowhere to be seen! Not a very reliable bunch these market manipulators are they.

I think if you re-examined your trades you would find they're less to do with 'order flow' (actually that's an awful misnomer in this context), and more to do with yer regular run-of-the-mill TA with a little bit of pure guesswork thrown in for luck.
  • #486
  • Apr 10, 2010 9:39am Apr 10, 2010 9:39am
Quoting hornet
say you manipulated the market and you pushed it up to sell at a higher level.... and you have loads to sell, you would start to sell at a level where you expect stops to get triggered, you would want to fill those stops. slowly and surely without people noticing. then you will start pushing the market down hard and fast getting help form the breakout buyers getting their stops triggered. (double whammy !!!!) so you will have taken us, poor suckers, out both ways.....and that happens a lot. actually, it happens all day long on intraday trading...
This is what I was getting at when I asked why you would want to trade into stops. To me, this is the correct answer. I just don't buy the momentum idea, I think that's a really retail oriented idea. If you are a trader who is a real part of the market and need to get filled, you're going to think much differantly than a retail guy. If it were me, and the market was close to stops, I'd issue a large limit right above the stop price, buy into the stops, then issue large markets to push the market down. If you had some cash to really bully people with, I don't see why it would be hard to make the market look weak (on a smaller time frame) to entice other traders to come in and sell. Right when others started selling I'd use their selling to liquidate all my shorts I started up above. I've basically paraphrased you, sorry, just thinking it through.

It's like the old saying goes, sell a little to buy a lot, buy a little to sell a lot.
  • #487
  • Apr 10, 2010 9:40am Apr 10, 2010 9:40am
Quoting pipmutt
I remember reading an article/post somewhere about two departments having opposing positions (probably in different markets but hey). Now if they don't talk to each other how in the world are we supposed to know!
Perhaps Mr. Daytrading?

http://www.forexfactory.com/showpost...&postcount=672
  • #488
  • Apr 10, 2010 9:45am Apr 10, 2010 9:45am
Quoting AstonDan
Perhaps Mr. Daytrading?

http://www.forexfactory.com/showpost...&postcount=672
That was it, thanks Dan!

Now there's an institutional guy, you heard it from the horses mouth (figuratively speaking!). We could really use his input in this thread, as well as other like him who have worked/work on the institutional side.
  • #489
  • Apr 10, 2010 9:47am Apr 10, 2010 9:47am
Quoting pipmutt
Imagining what players are doing and why they're doing it is certainly a romantic notion, but is there really any way to know in advance? Heck, other traders in the same company don't know what other traders are doing, I remember reading an article/post somewhere about two departments having opposing positions (probably in different markets but hey). Now if they don't talk to each other how in the world are we supposed to know!

Take the charts Ted1983 and Domino posted, beautiful trends, perfect, and easily tradeable, but where...
Thats a good point pip. I think that's the whole idea though. By nature we shouldn't know this type of thing is going on. The advantage would lie in the hands of those with the cash to push price around. The players probably don't give a rip about you and me, it's all about taking out other big players. It's all their game, we're just fleas on the dog's back. This type of strategy would only be helpful to us if we were in their ranks. We are far more limited in what we can do, we really have to learn to be parasitic to survive.
  • #490
  • Apr 10, 2010 9:50am Apr 10, 2010 9:50am
Quoting Scotty B
This is a free public forum my friend...You get whats here. Beggars can't be choosers.
everyone knows where normally people put their stops after few days in the fx trading.few people knows how to trade them.
This is swing low and swing high breakout trading system .(just using the name of order Flow).
stop is quite big as well.specially for day trade.please post some real trade example with this system.
it was only my opinion(no offence)
want to learn more nothing else.
  • #491
  • Apr 10, 2010 9:50am Apr 10, 2010 9:50am
Quoting Scotty B
If it were me, and the market was close to stops, I'd issue a large limit right above the stop price, buy into the stops, then issue large markets to push the market down.
Isn't that what we've been saying/speculating all along though?
  • #492
  • Apr 10, 2010 9:51am Apr 10, 2010 9:51am
There is a lot of discussion about this as though it is a stand alone system. I don't believe this was ever intended and was recomended as an addition to what ever you are already doing.
How many times have you read or been told in a "system" to place a limit or stop above or below X ? Why are the big round numbers important or previous S/R levels to be watched. Could it be because orders are likely to be clustered there. Isn't knowing this and whats likely to happen important? I don't trade VSA on its own but I keep an eye on it, and this is another tool. Order flow and clusters happen and are going to effect your trades. It seems foolish not to attempt to understand them.
I stand to be corrected or beaten up depending on the mood.
  • #493
  • Edited 10:06am Apr 10, 2010 9:52am | Edited 10:06am
Quoting Scotty B
The players probably don't give a rip about you and me, it's all about taking out other big players.
It makes you wonder how other big players get caught by it though, you would think they'd know the score. Unless it's just one big chess game, outsmarting and bluffing each other, that's even more reason for them not to divulge their intentions in advance.


Quoting Scotty B
we really have to learn to be parasitic to survive.
That works for me, to heck with self-sufficient
  • #494
  • Apr 10, 2010 9:54am Apr 10, 2010 9:54am
Quoting Bankshot
There is a lot of discussion about this as though it is a stand alone system. I don't believe this was ever intended and was recomended as an addition to what ever you are already doing.
I think there's a lot of semantics going on but it seems the longer opposing people discuss it, the closer people's ideas are coming together; it seems to me to be a question of interpretation more than anything else.

I could be wrong, and i'm not here to step on anyone's toes.
  • #495
  • Apr 10, 2010 10:08am Apr 10, 2010 10:08am
Quoting AstonDan
Perhaps Mr. Daytrading?

http://www.forexfactory.com/showpost...&postcount=672
thanks dan
i think it makes sence.
  • #496
  • Apr 10, 2010 12:35pm Apr 10, 2010 12:35pm
Quoting pipmutt
Imagining what players are doing and why they're doing it is certainly a romantic notion, but is there really any way to know in advance? Heck, other traders in the same company don't know what other traders are doing, I remember reading an article/post somewhere about two departments having opposing positions (probably in different markets but hey). Now if they don't talk to each other how in the world are we supposed to know!

We don't know......we assume.
Because human behaviour is repetitive, we assume that the majority of orders will be placed at certain areas for certain reasons.

Nothing is certain, we can only try by doing our stuff as best we can
The quality of your life is brought about by the quality of your thinking.
  • #497
  • Apr 10, 2010 12:37pm Apr 10, 2010 12:37pm
Quoting jolany
hello.
no offence.
hindsight everthing works.
can any one post live trades next week. with ur results?
if you take the bother to read a little backwards, you will find trades posted soon after they were taken. while positions were still open. now, please, go back and check. If you don't find them....check again.
The quality of your life is brought about by the quality of your thinking.
  • #498
  • Apr 10, 2010 12:42pm Apr 10, 2010 12:42pm
Quoting Scotty B
I agree, all I'm saying is that most PA does not support this idea.
scotty....think about this for a minute....follow me....

you see a PA pattern on a certain timeframe, say 240m.... now switch timeframe down to 15m...... is the pattern still there ? i bet not...

so after all, the only thing that matters is what price did. how price reacted at certain levels....that is not going to change even if you switch timeframe...

i am only following price. sure i use my 30m charts to do so, because i like that timeframe since it resonates with me....but the only thing i am interested in is what price did at certain levels, and what i assume it might do at other levels
The quality of your life is brought about by the quality of your thinking.
  • #499
  • Apr 10, 2010 12:46pm Apr 10, 2010 12:46pm
Jesus Christ people. Its the weekend. Get a freakin life!! lol
  • #500
  • Apr 10, 2010 12:47pm Apr 10, 2010 12:47pm
Quoting pipmutt
I think if you re-examined your trades you would find they're less to do with 'order flow' (actually that's an awful misnomer in this context), and more to do with yer regular run-of-the-mill TA with a little bit of pure guesswork thrown in for luck.
my trades have nothing to do with orderflow as such. they have to do with market dynamics and price analysis. the orderflow idea brought forward by domino resonates with me because it is similar to my market dynamics idea. we sort of look for entries at same areas, so i am trying to understand how it might help me improve my trading
The quality of your life is brought about by the quality of your thinking.
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