Lessons by Joe Ross

Joe:

Can you please answer Kenny's question?

You know the old saying.........
Those that can, DO......
Those that can't, TEACH.......

Actually Ingot I thought about what you said and part of what you say is true, although I have a lot of respect for Joe and personally I do think he's a great trader its also true he won't divulge anything of value without his "fee". The tradingeducators site is about traders helping traders but not without the mandatory fee.

I remember reading a thread on his site where some trader requested some information and Joe just lost his cool and said something like this site does not exist to provide you free information you'll have to pay for private consultation.


Joe is a hardcore businessman and there's nothing unethical or wrong with that its just that he doesn't get the respect and recognition he deserves, I mean look at this thread its been around a long time and hardly anyone comes here. Compare this to say the J16 chart thread and you can see why Jim is so much more respected than Joe is.

Thank you


That's the bit I don't understand with people ...
Where is the hard evidence that (Joe) "he's a great trader"?
What did Joe actually do to generate that kind of respect in you?


You make a valid point about Joe Ross having the right to charge for his services. I have the same right, as do you.

But why does he have to come onto a free forum like Forex Factory?
What exactly is this thread about ... why does it exist at all?

To drum up hits for his site?
To post something erudite, the regurgitation of which can be found on Google to the nth degree?
To teach others about trading?

Two out of three there, because teaching is an interactive process - a feedback loop needs to function, where the student gets to clarify points with the teacher, who may then explain using anecdote/analogy/synonym/metaphor etc.

There is no place on this thread where one could point to any interactive process between a teacher and a student. In fact, as far as we know, Joe's secretary could have made those posts, as extracts from one of Joe's books/seminars/threads elsewhere.

Remember the story about Brer Rabbit and Brer Fox and the Tar Baby?

http://www.abelard.org/brer_fox_brer...riar_patch.php

One could liken Joe Ross to the Tar Baby in that story.

You can ask politely; you can make a firm request; you can issue a demand; you could quite possibly lean over and give him a touch-up on the ear ... but he will not answer you.

The "Joe Ross" in this thread is a mute - a figment of the imagination, and it is this kind of "Joe Ross" that annoys the hell out of people.

No one "deserves" respect until they EARN respect. Oh, I forgot, he's "Joe Ross". Well, what has Joe Ross done on this thread to earn anyone's respect? Who did he reply to? Who did he help?

If you read the spiel, it is a preliminary softening up for getting people to attend his seminars, visit his site, read/buy his books, order his newsletter, thus this thread is in the "Commercial Forum (beta)".

Maybe "hardly anyone comes here" because there is no interaction with the author. No one is asking Joe to spill his guts for free.

But it is common courtesy, when you have a thread on a public forum, and you make sweeping statements about deep and meaningful trading issues, that you at least respond to one of your readers.

No, not Joe - he is too far above the members of this forum to do anything but post hit-and-run elevated oratory. Might mean something ... might not. We don't get to find out, because Mr Ross ... why, he's left the building as soon as he got to make his glorious speech.

Now you're talking about a real person - not the secretary.

Jim from J16 truly is an honest and honorable man, who takes the time to help real and struggling traders, and he is a giver. I am totally surprised that you did Jim the disservice of mentioning him in the same sentence as the bloke in question.

Chalk and cheese situation totally.

Jim is a man I would cross the world to meet. He has a teaching philosophy, a generous personality, and knows how to respond to a question courteously and in a timely manner. In fact with Jim, you get more than you requested for the same price ... free.

I wish JR all the best, but as for respecting him?? What is there to respect? What has JR done for the trading world that they couldn't have gotten elsewhere for free? Where is the generosity of spirit that responds to a genuine question, asked out of deeper need?

Sorry if I have ranted a bit, but I wouldn't waste the time of day on Joe what's-his-name, who lives in Arrogant House, Aloof Lane, where there is never anyone home.

You know, the more you pay for your education, the better it is ... right?

er ... not sure.

I just received an email inviting me to attend the next Joe Ross Seminar in Dallas, Texas, where they super-size everything!

How much do you think Joe is saying his time is worth? To make it easy on your alpha-waves, I'll simply quote for you:

Payment Option #1 > Pay Deposit

Click the button below to pay your seminar deposit $1500 to register for the seminar.

Payment Option #2 > Pay Full Seminar Tuition, save $100

Click the button below to pay the full Seminar tuition $3000.

Look, in case you think I am being a bit hard on Joe Ross, let me be more direct ... I can not be hard enough on people like Joe Ross.

Why?

Because JR is using Forex Factory as a free advertising bill-board for his money-generators.
No problem with that - I'd do the same, except for one little detail - the JR persona is not an interactive one - it is "My way or the Highway!"

You are asked to take at face value everything Joe's secretary posts for his organisation on this forum.
Yet if you ask a question, Joe's secretary is not authorised to give a response, so you might as well tap the wall with your forehead - Joe is unaware, asleep, in the Bahamas, or just plain ignorant.

You will NOT get your questions answered here.

Having established that (see full thread for any traces of evidence to the contrary) we next drop in to Joe's own forum - http://tetradersforum.com/forum/

Here and there you will see members attempt to discuss something, only to be jumped on by JR, as "unwanted" corruption of his kingdom.
It's a virtual Disneyland, where every character is wearing a Joe Ross face. You may or may not get a response to a post.

But you will certainly get plenty of offers to make you a gloriously successful trader, simply by parting with $3k and attending the next incredibly revealing JR seminar.

To tempt you further:
AT THIS DAY TRADING SEMINAR YOU WILL LEARN:

* About Market Dynamics. You MUST understand market dynamics to have any chance of real success as a trader.
* Where prices will move next.
* Why prices move, and how to take advantage of those moves.
* How far prices are likely to move, and when.
* How Price Momentum is generated. Knowing this is one of the most important tricks of the trade.
* How to know where the orders are, and what that means to your trading.
* Joe's 5 most important setups – simple ways to make profits fast.
* How to day trade the E-Mini S&P 500, and then learn Joe's secret to something twice as good.
* You have to have a trading plan. Joe will guide you one step at a time through forming an effective trading plan.
* How to trade forex currency pairs, and then find out where Joe trades them for greater safety.
* You can day trade any market in any time frame with what Joe will teach you. Day trade stocks, futures, or forex. It won't matter which, once you learn the truths Joe teaches.
* How to day trade stocks in a better way than do most other day traders.
* The importance of trailing stops and how they are used to create momentum.
* The heavy players in the market. Unless you follow their moves, you have little chance of winning. Joe will identify them for you, and show you how to take advantage of their actions.
* How to get in step with price movement.
* Your identity and role as a day trader.
* How to approach the markets.
* The right mind set for trading.
* What you need to know about your trading business.
* How to read a chart. Charts speak. Do you understand what they are saying?
* The information contained in a single price bar. Can you name seven important pieces of information contained in a single price bar? Joe will teach you eight!
* Better perspective as Joe clears away the confusion and mystery of the markets.
* An in-depth look at the Traders Trick Entry; Learn some really slick ways that other traders use the TTE to make money.
* How to manage your trades, whether you are a scalper, a swing trader, or a position trader.
* How to determine the best management method for your personality and style of trading. Trading has to become your own – within your own level of comfort. Joe will show you how to get there.
* How Joe takes advantage of the Fibonacci, Gann, and Golden Ratio traders. You will be amused at how he does it. He even shows you where the Fib traders make their biggest mistake.
* How to take advantage of momentum. In fact, unless Joe sees the potential for momentum, he won't even trade. He'll show you what that looks like.
* A brief review of the Law of Charts, done in Joe's own unique way. You will learn much from the way he explains it.
* About breakouts and retracements; support and resistance. Joe will show you the two-headed monster of so-called "market truths."
* How to trade defensively. (Most likely, you are not the 800 pound gorilla in the market.)

Now, for $3k which includes refreshments and lunch, and given Joe's propensity for answering legitimate questions, would you trust this man to deliver what he is promising?

Could you learn this stuff elsewhere for free?

And now for something more to the point ... even if you DID "learn" everything JR promises to deliver at this $3k seminar, could you actually walk out of the room and trade it as delivered?

I would say that about 80% of the attendees will not get the success they are spending the cash to receive.

Why?

Because trading is done at the hard right edge of the screen.
Trading is NOT a hindsight operation, where you point to some set up and say "This is what you would have traded."

Most of the time, you need to wait until a candle has fully closed - completed its formation. Then you need to consider what the setup is, if any.
Then you need the confidence to enter the trade at the moment the next candle opens, or at some point in the life of the next candle, in order to qualify for "taking the setup".

No one - not even Joe Ross - can tell what the market will do within the next 3 minutes, let alone over an hour, 4 hours or a day.

What you can do, is play an edge, and manage your money, but the trade HAS to be done as the action unfolds - not in hindsight.

Very few teachers/mentors can impart that sort of confidence to their students, and I have grave doubts about JR's feel-good seminars, despite the wonderful advertising (for which I have given Joe a free plug)!

This has been a bit of a negative post about JR, and I wish it were different. It would be nice if someone could come up here with a positive anecdote, and explain whether JR has actually been able to make a profitable difference in their trading activities.

It would be even nicer if Joe himself were to appear out of the mist (read: smoke and mirrors) and actually relate to his public in such a way as to draw people to his methods/teaching.

That's like a rainy day in Atacama - you won't need an umbrella.

I feel your pain.

It's quite a shame that you couldnt grasp anything from that information he was trying to convey "for free". I've been trading for the past 2 years and as of late of I've been searching for the reasons as to why I cannot execute my trading plan because of lack of discipline. Nobody has had an answer that has been helpful.

According to Joe all of your entry rules should be CLEARLY defined prior to your entry (makes sense), at the time of entry you SHOULD NOT be thinking. You should be following your rules and acting in a robotic manner because the planning should have taken place prior to you ever thinking of taking the trade.


As simple as this advice may sound, it has helped me immensly...Dime Bag Darrel is one of my favorite guitar dudes and as he would say....Getcha a Pull off that shit...It's gonna cost ya....LOL

Thanks Joe

Erik, anything Joe Ross is trying to convey is not "for free." You will notice there are two things always associated with Joe Ross - his ego, and a fee.

You can ask Joe a question, but you can not QUESTION Joe.

Joe does NOT answer questions on the threads he posts in - he lobs in, drops his "stuff" on the forum, and then disappears "until next time" when he will offer an even deeper bit of advice.

Did you ever read any post here from Joe Ross where he actually engaged in dialogue? Did Joe ever allow his methods to be examined outside of his own forum?

No? Why?

Perhaps Joe has an agenda to hoover-up the newbies who are still looking for answers, and well ... here is Forex Factory - a field ripe for the harvest.

"You just get your itty bitty self along to my forum now, ya hear, and Joe will take care of y'all."

But once you arrive over there, don't you dare ask a question that even remotely sounds like you are questioning the gospel according to Joe Ross.

Look, if the choir-master Joe Ross was any good, the trading world would be singing from his song-sheet. Clearly they are not. Why is this? Could it be that once folks get sucked in to his $3000+ seminars, and go home all nice and warm and fuzzy with a pocketful of answers, that they are pretty soon disillusioned once again?

This could happen because despite all the therapy and tuition at the seminar, it still doesn't translate into increasing trading pleasure. Why would that be? Yes, Joe has about 25 "new" throw-away lines, adages and maxims to deliver to participants. And it is delivered with all the market-speak of which he is capable (and he IS very capable at that).

But where the rubber hits the road is in trading success. That is the only true measure of a teacher. Did your $3000 actually nett you a further $3,000 ... $6,000 ... $12,000 ... $25,000? Or did you buy $3000 worth of "knowledge" that will make you another Joe Ross clone ... a disciple who will defend him on the forums where he dumps, but doesn't discuss?

Your opening quote was an assumption: "It's quite a shame that you couldn't grasp anything from that information he was trying to convey "for free". This is not what my posts have been about. My message is that Joe Ross does NOT teach anything about trading that can not be found elsewhere for free. Yet he charges for his brand of it, which fools enough people to keep him in business.

Unfortunately the waters are quite muddy these days, regarding trading techniques, strategy, systems, indicators and so on, so amidst the ridiculous claims of the other system marketeers, people like Joe Ross have been able to carve out a niche. My beef is NOT with that - I think Joe is just regurgitating his brand, with no better or worse success than other any one else of his genre.

What is amiss here, is that Joe is using forums like Forex Factory to promote himself. But he refuses to actually get involved in dialogue about the information he posts. Why would that be? Is it because it is NOT Joe that does the posting, but one of his office staff who "do the rounds" of the forums, beating the drum a month or two in advance of the "upcoming seminar"?

Is it because they are using Joe's log-in details to post on his behalf, and he actually has no clue about where the stuff has been posted? When did Joe last log in to read the responses on "his" thread?

He doesn't. He's not interested. It's all about promoting the next $3000+ seminar.

That's all there is.

Erik - I am not just a negative and grumpy old man who is here to knock Joe Ross off his high perch. I do that
because I think Joe Ross needs to be called out for the opportunist that his business model reveals him to be.

But when I read the quoted part of your post, I instantly felt for you, because I fully remember the angst of
being there too. I still get frustrated with losses, but I am experiencing much more the pleasures of winning.
Still not making a fortune, but this year I am enjoying trading like never before.

One of the breakthroughs for me came when I defined the word "discipline." What does that really mean?
It is bandied about so frequently, that instead of being enlightening as a concept, it is used as an excuse
for failure: "I lacked discipline, so I blew my a/c."

I substituted to words: "Commitment, Consistency, Focus" and then things began to open up.

If you have a trading plan, as you have already said, then you are already there.
Your plan will include your strategy, in a written form.

Your strategy is your trading edge.
If you have an edge, then you MUST TRUST YOUR EDGE. Otherwise why have a plan?

If you are having trouble pulling the trigger, is it because you do not believe in your edge?

If your trade does NOT work quickly, then close it. Believe me, this first loss will be your smallest. Trading has a
lot to do with being able to take a loss. The rest of it probably has to do with taking an exit, after profits have
materialised. But you do not have a profit until the trade is closed.

Taking your profits is not easy - you never know when the trade will run on to even more profits, so what can
be done about it?

The answer may lie in deciding from the moment you place the trade, where your exit will be - either at a
strategic stop-loss level, or a calculated take-profit level.

You must never look back and feel sad about not staying in longer to take the big profits you might have missed.
The truth is we will usually leave money on the table - sometimes quite a lot of it. But the alternative is to risk
having the trade run back against you, dissipating all your profits.

Just be contented with your initial targets. Do not believe the cliches - "Let your profits run." Whoever wrote that
may have been trading the higher time-frames, or just writing a nice book about how nice it is to make a lot of
money trading. The truth is, you have to take profits that are available in the time-frame you trade.

I write quite a lot about trading issues, but it is not good to be posting links all over other people's forums. I am
not selling anything, and do not have a web-site to promote the sale of my goodies!

If you really want to get good information for free ... TRULY FREE ... then google what I wrote here:

Your mama doesn't trade, so wise up to yourself

and

Breakthroughs that led to trading improvement and success

Forget Joe Ross and his Schmoss ... keep your $3000 and get to understand and trust your edge.

Stop looking for strategy and approaches, and simply apply what you already know with consistency, focus
and commitment. Learn to master your own method - stop playing around in the shallow water - get really serious
and focus, focus, focus.

You have an edge? Then apply it and trust it.

That is very simple, but believe me when I tell you that this is the truth, it is no more complicated than trusting
your edge and sticking with it.

There will ALWAYS be another strategy, another indicator, price action, expert advisors, scalping techniques
swing techniques ... it will all always be that way. Your job as a trader is to simply be a manager of your own
business - a manager of your strategy - a manager of your own trades - and as a manager, you are answerable
to your board of directors ... and that is YOURSELF.

How do you see yourself?

The way you answer that question will determine your outcome.

If you don't like the answer to that, then work on your commitment and your consistency and focus - the
turnaround WILL come for you.

Don't follow people who are just going to take your money, or chastise you when you question their approach.
It's just an old scam - mix a bit of truth with the biggest lies, and you will have them beating a path to your door.

In this post I have offered you the keys to the executive washroom, to repeat a phrase used by a great trader
friend of mine.

Do you want them? Or are you happy to play in muddy water?

Joe,

I'm a big fan! Nice to meet you!

excelent thread, suscribed . .

if you knew that Joe Ross has never made ​​money on their theories, All his managed account he has been gone with large losses and that he has fabricated its trading performance .Had you paid $ 3000 for a private seminar of a person who never succeed as a trader!

Evpatoria



I first became aware of Joe Ross in the early 1990s as a result of some contributions he made to the Club 3000 newsletter. I had a lot of respect for the guy. And why not? He believed in buying strength and selling weakness. He thought the vendors who purported to pick tops and bottoms were nothing but rip-off artists. He denigrated Gann, Elliot Wave, seasonals, and cycles. This was my kind of trader.


But as the years went by, a lot of negative stuff began surfacing about Joe Ross. His fax service was a disaster, his managed accounts suffered horrible losses, and much of what he said in some of his books didn't jive with the realities of trading real money.


No one was more disappointed (and disbelieving) than me when Bruce Babcock uncovered that Joe had fabricated his trading experiences in order to sell his products. But it wasn't until I read Joe's feature interview in the December 1995 issue of Stocks&Commodities magazine that I really began to have major questions about the guy's credibility.


It was in that interview where he mentioned how much money a trader would have made had they simply gone long a one lot S&P contract from the beginning of January or had they spread a one lot S&P against a one lot NYFE. The figures Joe quoted were way, way off and indicative of someone who didn't even know how much a point move in the S&P and NYFE equated to.

I was blown away. Thinking this must have been a misprint, I spoke with Thom Hartle, the editor of Stocks& Commodities and who was also the interviewer. In reviewing his tape, Thom said Joe was not misquoted.


I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that Bruce was correct in his assessment of Joe Ross. And what a shame. Joe Ross has written some good trading books. Maybe we should just leave it at that. But as Babcock stated in his investigation of Ross, "If Ross is making up his experience, he could do real damage to a careless, trusting student."


Duane Howe is anxious to get this matter of his problems with Joe Ross into the courts. But Joe Ross would never in a million years want his controversy with Babcock and Duane Howe to get that involved. There are other Duane Howes around. Other traders who entrusted their money with Joe Ross because they believed Joe when he said he never had a losing year as a

trader. There's also a former Joe Ross student, a well respected futures broker with a national trading firm. This person would testify that Joe admitted to her that he was indeed the infamous testimonial used by Ken Roberts.


And what about Joe Dinapoli? DiNapoli taught Ross his displaced moving average which Ross then went on to claim as his own. Joe studied under DiNapoli in the mid 80s. Joe Ross would not want to see DiNapoli testifying against him in a court case regarding Ross's trading background.


It's really too bad vendors have to resort to gimmicks to give them name recognition. Ross wrote some good books, he didn't need to fabricate his trading experiences to enhance his name.


As for Duane Howe, yes, he probably should drop his vendetta against Ross. Joe Ross is hardly the only vendor out there who has exaggerated or fabricated his trading experiences. You give your money to someone else to trade futures, even the so-called Market Wizards profiled by Jack Schwager, and you better expect to lose.

No response?

FWIW, Joe's profile page states that he hasn't been active on the FF forum since Jan 2010.

Certainly you will not get a response from Joe Ross.

Keep the dream alive!

But do not ... under any circumstances ... allow Joe Ross to
manage/invest money for you.

He is yet to offer proof that he has a strategy to trade the futures
markets that has profited one bean more than a coin flip!

Hi Hanover.

I'm being facetious of course, but Joe has never been active on FF.

He's a sniper-poster ... or his office girl-friday is.

Has anyone EVER actually received a response from Joe?

Joe's only "activity" here, has been to log-in-post-log-out.

Seriously, I doubt he himself has ever posted here - it's just a commercial activity
attended by his staff to grow the business.

The C-P-L business model - copy- post - leave.
No questions answered, no responsibility taken, no time wasted, broad
coverage achieved, advertising budget intact.

I am 100% certain that you are a far better trader than Joe, and 100% more accessible.

His silence is still his best response - there is then nothing to defend.

Ingot,

I wouldn't bet on it! LOL.

Anyway, I'm not one of Joe's disciples; and, because I've never really followed him, I can't offer intelligent opinion. I read your earlier posts, and understand and respect your position.

David

Hi Giraia Br

I expected no response from Joe Ross only disclose the status of Joe Ross has ..

The smartest gurus avoid this kind of discussions that will hurt their business .


In the opposite scale you find types like Nial Fuller goes into the throat of anyone who has a different opinion than him ..


If you pay $ 3,000 or $ 350 for eduacation materiale it is not the biggest damage you throw money away but the time and
enthusiasm you wasted away as is needed for success as a trader.


Personally, I think anyone who starts with trading should have access to the right knowledge
so that the trader can get a fair chance to develop their potential.

Most gurus offer a dead end, and often it is coincidence that a trader dumps over a (educator) who have a full-fledged material that can act as a guide and workbook for new trading candidates.

Evpatoria

I don't mean disrespect but there is a way to trade without looking your charts ALL DAY or even HALF DAY.

It's the called Swing Trading and the other one is called Systematic trading.

I do agree that looking at chart wastes time.