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Experience, by Joe Ross

  • Post #1
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  • First Post: Edited May 19, 2006 1:28pm Feb 28, 2006 12:39pm | Edited May 19, 2006 1:28pm
  •  FX Articles
  • Joined Feb 2006 | Status: Member | 313 Posts
Experience
by Joe Ross, February 2006

Throughout our course on futures trading, we have tried to point out to you that there is a great difference between having an investor attitude and being a trader. There are also many similarities. In one sense, a trader is someone who invests in his own trading ability. Therefore, in that sense trading is investing. Trading and investing are interrelated. You come to realize this through experience.

For the most part, the trading approach comes from a much shorter- term mindset than the mindset of an investor. It can also be much more based on technical information than on fundamental information. But here again we find a dilemma. What exactly is technical information? What exactly is fundamental information? Where do the two overlap, or do they? Are they interrelated? Sure they are. But again, it is through experience that you learn about and develop an appreciation for these concepts.


Technical Vs Fundamental??

As futures traders, we get to hear some pretty weird things, and also as writers, and teachers in the business of educating people about futures trading . One of the strangest things we get to hear is when people try to separate trading into either technical or fundamental. Why, oh why, does everything have to be put into a box? Would someone please explain how to separate one from the other? Is it possible, or is there some middle ground that cannot be classified as either technical or fundamental?

For example, how do you classify trading from news stories? Surely you would not call news stories fundamental information, would you? A friend of ours tells about a time in January when he heard a commentator on CNBC explain that the price of coffee had gone up because of a freeze in Brazil. The only thing wrong with the story was that January is the middle of summer in that country. Was the news worthy of the name fundamentals?

What about seasonal trades? Are they technical or fundamental? Certainly they are not based upon hard facts. Who knows if tomorrow will bring a season like the last? Who knows that the weather will be the same this summer as it was the last?

They say enter on rumor, exit on fact. Is that technical or fundamental? Or is it just plain good old common sense?

This article is about experience, but here’s the catch: You must survive as a trader long enough to gain experience. Experience will show you that trading cannot be placed into a box. Experience will bring you to the realization that some of the best trades you will ever make come from experience, gut feelings, and good old common sense. Experience will demonstrate to you that many great trades are derived by paying attention and learning to be an opportunist. Experience will bring you to the point where you will take a smattering of what others may call “fundamentals” along with a pinch of what some call “technical analysis,” and combine them with a spoonful of know-how to succeed in making your living in the markets.


Fundamentals

Our understanding is that fundamentals deal with known facts and published or unpublished information about the underlying commodity or instrument you wish to trade. Because statistics lie, governments knowingly lie with statistics, or at times do so unwittingly, those who can afford it and also have a need, spend tons of money doing their own research in order to come up with their own body of fundamental knowledge. This includes gathering information and statistics on anything imaginable that might affect the underlying. They research production, marketing, crop conditions, financial conditions, etc.; everything they can find out about the underlying. They may even make in-person visits to farms, mines, or financial institutions for discussions about the underlying. They then combine this knowledge with what they find believable as handed down by various reporting agencies.

Even with live data, it is not economic to compete with these behemoths with regard to the amount of fundamental knowledge they can afford and are able to gather.


Technicals

Technical analysis in its purest form assumes that everything known about the markets that affect the markets can be seen on a price chart. We believe that to be true. But that’s where reality and the kind of technical analysis we see today part company. What we mean is, in general what do technical indicators show you that you can't normally see with your two eyes via pure chart reading and analysis? Admittedly there are a few things. We have never denied that an indicator like Bollinger Bands can show you the location of 2 standard deviations. We cannot visually know where that amount of deviation from price would be without the bands. But most technical indicators wipe away the very things we do want to see. They take your focus away from what is truly happening to price.

By smoothing, they purport to remove “noise.” But it is the noise that we, as traders, and especially as day traders, most want to see. The noise is what tells us the reality of what is going on.


Realities

Fundamentals, in the purest sense, are beyond what the individual trader can deal with. Most individual traders simply don’t have the time to conduct the required research. But that doesn’t mean they cannot use this information should the happen to stumble across it. Technicals in the purest sense are fine, but the way they have been bastardized into virtually meaningless indicators makes no sense. The ultimate foolishness of technical indicators is that of rendering them as mechanical trading systems. Employing mechanical systems represents the height of the undisciplined mind. It is tantamount to conceding that because you do not have the discipline to exercise self-control, you will undergo the harsh discipline enforced on you by an uncaring, unfeeling machine. While you try to escape from self-disciplined trading, mechanical systems force an even more horrible discipline upon you in that you now have to sit and grit your teeth due to the pain brought on yourself because of the mechanical aspect of the system. Mechanical trading is not without discipline, rather it places the discipline onto the wrong part of the trade. Instead of placing the emphasis on planning, organizing, directing, and controlling the trade, it gets the trader in via a mechanical signal and then forces him to suffer through the trade in order to exercise discipline — quite often a discipline he does not understand based upon a system he does not understand, and that may have been derived entirely outside the realm of reality.

The realities of the market are many. Markets are affected by a lot of things that are not measurable by either fundamental or technical analysis. In addition to seasonality, news, rumor, weather, and common sense observation, one has to take into account the market conditions at the time at which a trade is to be entered. Is the market fast? Is the market thin? Is the tick size abnormal? Are market makers moving the market? Is it options expiration day? Is it the day before a holiday? Is an important dignitary going to make a speech? Has the market gone into a state of hysteria, or even euphoria? Are you going to buy or are you going to sell? It is the summation, organization, and perception of these and even other criteria that constitute the realities of trading.


Reality Trading

We are convinced that the best way to trade should be termed “Reality Trading.” In fact, we are so convinced that we have trade marked the name for future use. Reality Trading views the market as an entire entity, a living, throbbing reality that includes fundamentals, technicals, and realities such as news, rumors, seasonal tendencies, common sense observations, and market conditions.

Let’s look at a possible trade that is based upon realities. Let’s say that this is a trade that has been good most years in the last 15 years. Let’s say that the trade is to buy March wheat between September and December of the current year.

First we look to see if March wheat futures are behaving normally. What does the March wheat futures chart need to look like if this trade is going to work?

We begin watching March wheat futures in the first week of September, for possible entry between that time and the last week in November. We’re not particularly interested in what the March wheat futures look like prior to September, but according to past seasonal patterns, they should not end September in a down trend. The normal pattern for wheat futures at that time of year is that wheat prices begin to rise or at the very least remain flat. Falling prices would indicate an over supply of wheat. The rising or flatness may have begun earlier, or it may begin later, but not by the end of September. The main thing we don’t want to see is wheat prices falling after September. If wheat prices are falling in the time period mentioned above, then we do not have a normal year for these futures and we want to avoid this trade. No one knows for sure what weather conditions will be between the first week in September and the time the that wheat inventory figures are known. No one knows if exports will be up, down, or flat compared with the previous year. It is the seasonal anticipation that should prop up the price of the wheat futures.

Obviously, this same sort of technique could be applied to any purchasable commodity that can be expected to experience increased activity seasonally.

So, lets look at a wheat chart. We want to select the best the best possible time to enter. Experience has shown that the two best times are as follows:

 

  1. An announcement by the government between September and October that it export sales of wheat have increased materially – a buying situation.

  1. A report showing a greater than expected inventory of wheat in September through November – a selling short situation.

http://www.forexfactory.com/pics/articles/jr1.JPG



At “A” we see announcements coming from government reports that demand for wheat for export is great. It is the middle of September. People rush in to purchase wheat futures. However, from the look of this chart, overall demand for wheat was not very good. Actually, the year shown was poor for wheat most of the time.

Later, beyond the time frame in which we are interested, at “B” we see that the government crop report for January was really bad for wheat. There was simply too much of it. Wheat prices began to plunge. What stopped the plunge? Anticipation of planting problems due to unusually cold weather.


FF;_______________


About the Author:

Joe Ross, trader, author, trading educator is one of the most eclectic traders in the business. His 48+ years include position trading of shares, and futures. He daytrades stock indices, currencies, and forex. He trades futures spreads and options on futures, and has written books about it all - 12 to be exact. Joe is the discoverer of The Law of Charts, and is famous for the Ross hook and the Traders Trick Entry.

http://www.tradingeducators.com/

http://www.forexfactory.com/pics/art...ss_picture.jpg

  • Post #2
  • Quote
  • Edited 8:00am Mar 1, 2006 7:54am | Edited 8:00am
  •  eastmaels
  • | Joined Jul 2005 | Status: J16G Expectancy Seeker | 676 Posts
Very nice article..

Experience by Joe Ross

"But most technical indicators wipe away the very things we do want to see. They take your focus away from what is truly happening to price.

By smoothing, they purport to remove “noise.” But it is the noise that we, as traders, and especially as day traders, most want to see. The noise is what tells us the reality of what is going on. "

"We are convinced that the best way to trade should be termed “Reality Trading.” In fact, we are so convinced that we have trade marked the name for future use. Reality Trading views the market as an entire entity, a living, throbbing reality that includes fundamentals, technicals, and realities such as news, rumors, seasonal tendencies, common sense observations, and market conditions.

"

My Comments
Although I think he's somehow against Mechanical Trading Systems, we can't ignore the fact (based on The New Market Wizards) that there are those who are successfully trading purely mechanical trading systems.

I have nothing against auto-trading, but it's the process of trading (knowing your stops, Take Profit, etc.) that keeps me interested and love about trading.. I just think that it's looking for that system that you understand, have confidence, and psychologically fits you that seems to be the important factor here..

We have some of the Market Wizards to prove that a lot of approaches to the market can lead to profits.

I also agree with him with regards to a lot of experience that will teach you the best.

Anyway, just posting my opinions..
There may be also some parts that I may have misunderstood, so I'm reading it again..
 
 
  • Post #3
  • Quote
  • Edited 1:00pm Mar 6, 2006 12:49pm | Edited 1:00pm
  •  Isotonic
  • Joined Jul 2005 | Status: Member | 974 Posts
I would still think that most traders are, and will perhaps remain, technicians first and foremost. Maybe they will add a smattering of fundies to move partway to reality trading but to me it looks like you have to clock up the experience to make that shift. In other words it takes time to filter and assess the useful fundies that assist in helping the technical situation.

Whilst I agree that analysing and discounting the fundies are beyond the reach (and financial pockets) of the average retail trader I would disagree about writing off mechanical trading altogether. I think each method has its time and place and like East has said there are a few famous (or should that be, infamous? ) wizards out there who have creamed off more than a few dollars doing it (let's not forget our own resident wiz here, folks ).

As for me I'm still nearly 100% technical. Now to the point I just don't bother looking at the calendar anymore - even on NFP day. Sure I'm aware of it like everybody else - payroll, trade, fed official speaking etc but to me it has just become "noise" (of the unwanted kind) that distracts from my trading.

I do agree that alot of these technical indicators are just plain rubbish that takes your focus away from price action - so they best thing to do is leave most of them alone.

Anyway as just a techie I put the chart through my system to get the results below. No anticipating govt reports, nor knowing seasonal patterns. A chart is a chart is a chart (is a chart....)...
Attached Image
 
 
  • Post #4
  • Quote
  • Mar 6, 2006 7:59pm Mar 6, 2006 7:59pm
  •  eastmaels
  • | Joined Jul 2005 | Status: J16G Expectancy Seeker | 676 Posts
Quoting Isotonic
Disliked
I would still think that most traders are, and will perhaps remain, technicians first and foremost. Maybe they will add a smattering of fundies to move partway to reality trading but to me it looks like you have to clock up the experience to make that shift. In other words it takes time to filter and assess the useful fundies that assist in helping the technical situation.

Whilst I agree that analysing and discounting the fundies are beyond the reach (and financial pockets) of the average retail trader I would disagree about writing off mechanical trading altogether. I think each method has its time and place and like East has said there are a few famous (or should that be, infamous? ) wizards out there who have creamed off more than a few dollars doing it (let's not forget our own resident wiz here, folks).

As for me I'm still nearly 100% technical. Now to the point I just don't bother looking at the calendar anymore - even on NFP day. Sure I'm aware of it like everybody else - payroll, trade, fed official speaking etc but to me it has just become "noise" (of the unwanted kind) that distracts from my trading.

I do agree that alot of these technical indicators are just plain rubbish that takes your focus away from price action - so they best thing to do is leave most of them alone.
<snip>
A chart is a chart is a chart (is a chart....)...
Ignored
Darn it! Thank you for taking the words out of my mouth.. or should I say out of my mind.. hmmm... "out of my mind" doesn't sound right..

So true.. for me that is...
For me one should learn to know which things to focus on and which ones to filter.. One needs to learn at some point to shut out the noise.

So I do agree with it.. for my way that is - techies then fundies.. If fundamentals decreases the reliability of my method/system, then I'll just stick with technical..

The key is in finding what works for me as many have already said..
It is finding one that fits that was the challenge, as always, it's for my case that is.

Great post Iso.. Now would you mind putting those words back? I still need to chew on them...
 
 
  • Post #5
  • Quote
  • Mar 7, 2006 6:45am Mar 7, 2006 6:45am
  •  narafa
  • Joined Jan 2005 | Status: Keep Learning | 1,180 Posts
The beauty of Charts is that they mostly reflect what already happened and factor in what is likely going to happen, so in theory and in practice, charts convey supply and demand as well as fundamentals, this is the real power of charts...


Thanks,

Nader
 
 
  • Post #6
  • Quote
  • May 6, 2006 6:42am May 6, 2006 6:42am
  •  FxFox
  • | Joined Apr 2006 | Status: Member | 37 Posts
knowing some fundamentals help to understand major (mostly macro economic) reasons of the current trend and may be good basis to determine whether the trend is short or long term, or even predict when it ends.
The real problem with fundamentals is that when the information arrives to the most of the traders, this information is already priced.
 
 
  • Post #7
  • Quote
  • May 7, 2006 1:59pm May 7, 2006 1:59pm
  •  squat1962
  • | Joined May 2006 | Status: Member | 144 Posts
I would just refer to the wonderful economic calender available at this website. Everytime you are in a position and , almost like magic, the candlestick catches fire and move 70 pips up or down....... When that happens, check your economic calender that would have told you the report was coming.

It's like being a fisherman and having a schedule that tells you when the fish will be biting....... you just don't know whether to cast your position in a bullish or bearish direction until the report comes out.
if one is a technical trader, how could it be unwise to be aware of when reports are coming out?
 
 
  • Post #8
  • Quote
  • May 11, 2006 1:15pm May 11, 2006 1:15pm
  •  J.L.
  • | Joined May 2006 | Status: Member | 26 Posts
Quoting squat1962
Disliked
I would just refer to the wonderful economic calender available at this website. Everytime you are in a position and , almost like magic, the candlestick catches fire and move 70 pips up or down....... When that happens, check your economic calender that would have told you the report was coming.

It's like being a fisherman and having a schedule that tells you when the fish will be biting....... you just don't know whether to cast your position in a bullish or bearish direction until the report comes out.
if one is a technical trader, how could it be unwise to be aware of when reports are coming out?
Ignored
Just because you don't have a way to determine when such a move will take place it doesn't mean that it is impossible.It's possible and it's tradeable and if someone is a master trader he should disable the news feed as I have done.
A trader should be able to trade any chart without even be aware of what he is trading.
News are only distractions.Every move can be predicted in advance.When I say every move I mean it.Even the smallest ones ,even tick data.
 
 
  • Post #9
  • Quote
  • May 11, 2006 4:08pm May 11, 2006 4:08pm
  •  fidel2414
  • | Joined Nov 2005 | Status: Member | 21 Posts
wow that's a pretty powerful statement J.L. Can you tell me how that is done? I would love to read your method.


Fidel


Quoting J.L.
Disliked
Just because you don't have a way to determine when such a move will take place it doesn't mean that it is impossible.It's possible and it's tradeable and if someone is a master trader he should disable the news feed as I have done.
A trader should be able to trade any chart without even be aware of what he is trading.
News are only distractions.Every move can be predicted in advance.When I say every move I mean it.Even the smallest ones ,even tick data.
Ignored
 
 
  • Post #10
  • Quote
  • May 12, 2006 7:19am May 12, 2006 7:19am
  •  J.L.
  • | Joined May 2006 | Status: Member | 26 Posts
I cannot reveal my method but if you read the forum next week I will have posted some very interesting stuff.
 
 
  • Post #11
  • Quote
  • May 12, 2006 10:54pm May 12, 2006 10:54pm
  •  Far From Average
  • | Joined Aug 2005 | Status: Member | 115 Posts
Quoting J.L.
Disliked
Just because you don't have a way to determine when such a move will take place it doesn't mean that it is impossible.It's possible and it's tradeable and if someone is a master trader he should disable the news feed as I have done.
A trader should be able to trade any chart without even be aware of what he is trading.
News are only distractions.Every move can be predicted in advance.When I say every move I mean it.Even the smallest ones ,even tick data.
Ignored
I don't know what is more asinine, your assertions or your egregious emoticon usage. The only time you can afford to discount news is if you are trading very long timeframes and only a veeeeery small portion of your account is at risk.
 
 
  • Post #12
  • Quote
  • May 13, 2006 1:11am May 13, 2006 1:11am
  •  Rolandlc33
  • Joined May 2006 | Status: Millionaire Traders - Chapter 8 | 144 Posts
Why would anyone trade this market without planning for news releases. You must be prepared and ready to pull the trigger once its out. You can't already be in a trade and hope it goes your way. Yes if your in for a long term move its okay but still probably not prudent. Today is a great example.. so many people expected bad trade data, yet it came in very good. If you pulled the trigger and bought USD then you could take advantage of this move. If you were unaware or already in your trade then all you could do is sit and hope it moved back your way. This guy is crazy to not know when the news will come out and what its implications are. Amazing..
 
 
  • Post #13
  • Quote
  • May 13, 2006 11:25am May 13, 2006 11:25am
  •  J.L.
  • | Joined May 2006 | Status: Member | 26 Posts
Quoting Rolandlc33
Disliked
Why would anyone trade this market without planning for news releases. You must be prepared and ready to pull the trigger once its out. You can't already be in a trade and hope it goes your way. Yes if your in for a long term move its okay but still probably not prudent. Today is a great example.. so many people expected bad trade data, yet it came in very good. If you pulled the trigger and bought USD then you could take advantage of this move. If you were unaware or already in your trade then all you could do is sit and hope it moved back your way. This guy is crazy to not know when the news will come out and what its implications are. Amazing..
Ignored
well I was short at 2950 eur/usd.I didnt know what was coming out and not even when.This is something like the 100th time that I do that and I am correct.Only once I've been wrong before a news anouncement.
 
 
  • Post #14
  • Quote
  • May 13, 2006 11:41am May 13, 2006 11:41am
  •  J.L.
  • | Joined May 2006 | Status: Member | 26 Posts
Quoting Far From Average
Disliked
I don't know what is more asinine, your assertions or your egregious emoticon usage. The only time you can afford to discount news is if you are trading very long timeframes and only a veeeeery small portion of your account is at risk.
Ignored
Only inexperienced,foolish and soon bankrupt Far from Average ,way Down from Average in fact, traders think that the news have actually anything to do with the market.

Know that every time you expect a news release ready to jump into the market to scalp a few pips I have taken the correct side at least 4 hours before any news come out.I have received a better price and in the unlikely case I am wrong I will probably exit with no loss or little earnings.

Have fun "trading" and interpreting the garbage information you call "news".
 
 
  • Post #15
  • Quote
  • May 14, 2006 12:08pm May 14, 2006 12:08pm
  •  Qucimann
  • | Joined May 2006 | Status: Member | 4 Posts
That is selfish J.L. After all we are here to learn and to help each other learn something new to apply to our individual trades. Mind you, the forex market is an every day 3 trillion big shark, you can't eat a whole frog alone, or can you? The big boys help each other so why can't we do the same. You have nothing to loss should you reveal your method.
 
 
  • Post #16
  • Quote
  • May 15, 2006 11:34am May 15, 2006 11:34am
  •  jacko
  • | Membership Revoked | Joined Mar 2006 | 912 Posts
Quoting J.L.
Disliked
I cannot reveal my method but if you read the forum next week I will have posted some very interesting stuff.
Ignored

Hmmm, I decided to have a look at this...

Quote
Disliked
Posted by JL Dated 12 May
I believe the current upward movement is completed .I was Long Euro since 1.2081.Exited at 1.2880.
I went short 50% of my account at 1.2950 with 1/100 leverage.
Current stop loss is at 1.2950.
Target is at 1.2550.Let's see how it turns out...

1. Can you verify that you were long since 1.2081 ?? ...is this what they call "posting after the event" ??

2. There was a quick sell off after the market hit 1.2950...some time after that happened, you posted that you had gone "short" at 1.2950 ...is this what they call "posting after the event" ??

3. Why would you exit at 1.2880 if you "knew" it was going to 1.2950 ?


Would you please consider starting a "live time" journal in order for others to verify your statements, or alternatively, post your predictions before (rather than after) the events?



Jacko
 
 
  • Post #17
  • Quote
  • Last Post: May 17, 2006 2:24pm May 17, 2006 2:24pm
  •  temporary
  • | Joined May 2006 | Status: Member | 38 Posts
Quoting jacko
Disliked
Hmmm, I decided to have a look at this...



1. Can you verify that you were long since 1.2081 ?? ...is this what they call "posting after the event" ??

2. There was a quick sell off after the market hit 1.2950...some time after that happened, you posted that you had gone "short" at 1.2950 ...is this what they call "posting after the event" ??

3. Why would you exit at 1.2880 if you "knew" it was going to 1.2950 ?


Would you please consider starting a "live time" journal in order for others to verify your statements, or alternatively, post your predictions before (rather than after) the events?



Jacko
Ignored
already answered in this post.
http://www.forexfactory.com/forexfor...8257#post58257
The GrandMaster of the Forex Market.
 
 
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