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  • #21
  • Jan 28, 2010 7:07am Jan 28, 2010 7:07am
Quoting narafa
The rule still applies, high reward = high risk, no exceptions...
Risk is only part of the reward equation. Two traders may make 500%, but get their very different ways. One may have made 50 aggressive trades, and another may have made 5000 conservative trades.
  • #22
  • Jan 29, 2010 8:12pm Jan 29, 2010 8:12pm
Quoting vegas

You want the truth? OK, here it is.

You start out trading $10/pip and nobody in the world cares what you do. At $1,000/ pip, believe me, the house cares. Their sophisticated software will figure out how you trade, eventually figuring out where your "puke point" is and how to get you to place the stop order or push the button.

As you get bigger, you have to move to larger trading time-frames in order to defeat the stop-hunting banks and hedge-funds.
OK, I know that this is an old thread and that Vegas is not around anymore. But my interest is drawn to his comment that I have bolded:

- do you think what he wrote is true - are the brokers really using algos to analyze every trader's actions & so to assist them in trading against....every trader?
- does anyone here know anything about the nature of this software? How does it work? How can a trader work around it or fake it out?
"If The Fool persists in his Folly he will become wise." - William Blake
  • #23
  • Jan 29, 2010 8:23pm Jan 29, 2010 8:23pm
I created a group to trade in the London session, from 12am till 4am. The idea is that we discuss the market sentiment and market overview, etc. I do not want you to share your strategy or system with me. My group right now has 4 people. If you feel like you must deal with the stress, fear, hope, and all the rest then this group is for you.It is not good work alone so I started to share ideas with a few other traders of different levels to see if we will actually have fun and make the time more enjoyable as well. I am still looking for someone at my level with at least level 3 – 4 years of experience and is a dedicated trader to lead the group with me.
  • #24
  • Jan 30, 2010 1:14am Jan 30, 2010 1:14am
Quoting The Fool
OK, I know that this is an old thread and that Vegas is not around anymore. But my interest is drawn to his comment that I have bolded:

- do you think what he wrote is true - are the brokers really using algos to analyze every trader's actions & so to assist them in trading against....every trader?
- does anyone here know anything about the nature of this software? How does it work? How can a trader work around it or fake it out?
This are all fabricated in traders mind. Ok, maybe the broker will keep an eye on your account, BUT please guys and girls DON'T BELIEVE THIS BS ANYMORE!!! Instead of worry about "evil brokers" you should worry if you can make profits consistently % m/m basis with a LOW leverage and drawdown!

Stop wasting the time with brokers, concentrate with your method/strategy and then when you trade BIG, you don't need to worry because you can use a mini prime broker from well known banks. And also, if you trade through big banks, that bank will act as a Market Maker sometimes because it could be better for the client and for the bank to match the trade inside, or the bank to take the risk! So, as long as you get decent fills you SHOULD NOT worry about the broker!
The bottom line is: don't worry abut evils brokers, because there are thousand of honest brokers!

Later edit: to respond to the first post, theoretical you can use compound to infinite, but in reality you will not reach a very high level because you can't make profits consistently, there are also periods of drawdowns which are normal, every business have periods of drawdowns. And 20-30%/month it's total unrealistic.

have a nice day
  • #25
  • Jan 30, 2010 1:23am Jan 30, 2010 1:23am
Quoting VonTrader

The bottom line is: don't worry abut evils brokers, because there are thousand of honest brokers!

have a nice day
Thanks, man. I feel alot better now.
"If The Fool persists in his Folly he will become wise." - William Blake
  • #26
  • Jan 30, 2010 2:01am Jan 30, 2010 2:01am
Quoting VonTrader
And 20-30%/month it's total unrealistic.

have a nice day
Oops you'd better tell this lot then, they had no idea http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=121761
  • #27
  • Jan 30, 2010 2:22am Jan 30, 2010 2:22am
The whole world is playing off the same price just bring up multiple broker charts and they're all the same aren't they? you will know if a broker is dodgy because your trades will fail to execute properly, THEY CANNOT MANIPULATE THE PRICE.
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  • #28
  • Jan 30, 2010 5:10am Jan 30, 2010 5:10am
Quoting The Fool
- do you think what he wrote is true - are the brokers really using algos to analyze every trader's actions & so to assist them in trading against....every trader?
- does anyone here know anything about the nature of this software? How does it work? How can a trader work around it or fake it out?
I doubt they are looking to bust any one trader.

However, it's not a big leap to say that any broker can and does put together all of their info into one very easily accessible tool, platform, etc. If they want to see how many stops are lying at any price, I would think they could do so with a push of a key. What they do with that info is probably hedge and set up their own stop running trades. But who really knows besides the people actually working at the brokers?
  • #29
  • Jan 30, 2010 5:29am Jan 30, 2010 5:29am
Yup, I have no doubt that stop-running occurs - and it would take one or more of the large brokers maybe even working in concert with a hedge fund or two to get that done.

But I kind of doubt the premise of Vegas' comment above - I don't see how a broker could get that done without risking deviation from what seems to be an accepted commonality of price across the market as a whole.

Oh, and you'd think that after all these years some disgruntled borker's minion would defect and spill his guts about all the sneaky things they do - but I have not seen that juicy gossip yet.
"If The Fool persists in his Folly he will become wise." - William Blake
  • #30
  • Jan 30, 2010 5:43am Jan 30, 2010 5:43am
A couple things here...

1. When an account size gets big enough, leverage options diminish. You can have 100:1 with your $1K mini account. Now try to get that same deal with a $1M account. Ain't happenin' brotha.

2. Are brokers honest? Are they crooks? I used to worry about this all the time. I'd lose sleep over it. Guess what... all the stress and relevance of this debate vanishes when you trade really small. I know a lot of you cowboys out there are trying to knock out 20% a month (like our thread starter here), but get yourself grounded for a second. Think about it, even with a $1M account small positions would not require any use of broker leverage, and stop running would not be an issue. It's the only solution.

3. And lastly... where is the thread starter with his impressive monthly gains. According to his claims he should be partnering up with Mr. Sorros shortly to open up the worlds biggest hedge fund. Foolish.

Whatever,
MM
  • #31
  • Jan 30, 2010 6:28am Jan 30, 2010 6:28am
Quoting Dopey
I doubt they are looking to bust any one trader.

However, it's not a big leap to say that any broker can and does put together all of their info into one very easily accessible tool, platform, etc. If they want to see how many stops are lying at any price, I would think they could do so with a push of a key. What they do with that info is probably hedge and set up their own stop running trades. But who really knows besides the people actually working at the brokers?
Not that I work for any broker but Bingo, spot on. You will not find it printed anywhere as the algo's are very proprietary. But they know where the stops are pooled and individual info is more concise than you think, but no they don't move against specific people.

Traders want to be able to push a button, buy/sell, no slips, guaranteed stops ect.... that's a fairy tail in the real world, as market structure doesn't always allow it, but the brokers as best as possible provide, in doing so they have internal risks that have to be offset, hedged, spread out... so shading/price manipulation are tools in the bag to accomplish that. Oh btw, they like to make money too, it's their market you trade.

fwiw.
  • #32
  • Jan 30, 2010 6:42am Jan 30, 2010 6:42am
Quoting The Fool
Oh, and you'd think that after all these years some disgruntled borker's minion would defect and spill his guts about all the sneaky things they do - but I have not seen that juicy gossip yet.
I agree.
  • #33
  • Jan 30, 2010 7:23am Jan 30, 2010 7:23am
Quoting Dopey
I doubt they are looking to bust any one trader.

However, it's not a big leap to say that any broker can and does put together all of their info into one very easily accessible tool, platform, etc. If they want to see how many stops are lying at any price, I would think they could do so with a push of a key. What they do with that info is probably hedge and set up their own stop running trades. But who really knows besides the people actually working at the brokers?
Dopey, I think you'll find the book Beat The Forex Dealer by Agustin Silvani interesting. He answers many of these questions.
Measure twice, cut once
  • #34
  • Edited 9:20am Jan 30, 2010 8:38am | Edited 9:20am
Quoting mr.marketz

3. And lastly... where is the thread starter with his impressive monthly gains. According to his claims he should be partnering up with Mr. Sorros shortly to open up the worlds biggest hedge fund. Foolish.

Whatever,
MM
C'mon Sir,

It's a reasonable statement & question from the thread starter. It's a phase in traders learning curve where few of us even had . It's bound to happen if we feel we've arrived at a certain stage in our trading experience. (you have to admit maybe you had one too... )

I'm sure zazzi need not a defender. But afaik he's not boasting any claims whatsoever.. and I'm glad he posted the question. it got you posting some valuable advice too didn't it ?

fwiw, I might add that :
- the amount compounded should be percentages after withdrawal of a win/winnings.
- so, you secure your wins and the compound (wins & losses) will be somewhat controlled.

cameo
  • #35
  • Jan 31, 2010 9:59am Jan 31, 2010 9:59am
Quoting aediaz1
Dopey, I think you'll find the book Beat The Forex Dealer by Agustin Silvani interesting. He answers many of these questions.
I have it. I think he did a great job with it as well and it's one of the better things I've seen for fx over the years. It's certainly worth the money he charges.
  • #36
  • Jan 31, 2010 5:02pm Jan 31, 2010 5:02pm
Quoting Dopey
I have it. I think he did a great job with it as well and it's one of the better things I've seen for fx over the years. It's certainly worth the money he charges.
I liked his way of comparing price-quotes between brokers and exploiting the potential lag in his favor, although I'm having a hard time believe its possible these days. I remember having a half-ass attempt 3-4 years ago with just 2 brokers.
Measure twice, cut once
  • #37
  • Jan 31, 2010 5:40pm Jan 31, 2010 5:40pm
Quoting aediaz1
I liked his way of comparing price-quotes between brokers and exploiting the potential lag in his favor, although I'm having a hard time believe its possible these days. I remember having a half-ass attempt 3-4 years ago with just 2 brokers.
Nobody is exploiting price feed latency with any success, not in retail, maybe not elsewhere. But when you look - try the 5-second charts at Oanda compared to a similar NT chart w/ Gain feed - actually you can even see it on the M1 charts - you will see that there are noticeable differences in price between an ECN broker and a marketmaker. Its a small and random difference, though, and not enough to give you an edge - not manually anyway.

So, big news - marketmaker brokers are offsetting trader tickets internally, not in the real interbank world, and they are using what small leeway is available to them to accomplish that.
"If The Fool persists in his Folly he will become wise." - William Blake
  • #38
  • Last Post: Jan 31, 2010 6:15pm Jan 31, 2010 6:15pm
Quoting The Fool
Nobody is exploiting price feed latency with any success, not in retail, maybe not elsewhere. But when you look - try the 5-second charts at Oanda compared to a similar NT chart w/ Gain feed - actually you can even see it on the M1 charts - you will see that there are noticeable differences in price between an ECN broker and a marketmaker. Its a small and random difference, though, and not enough to give you an edge - not manually anyway.

So, big news - marketmaker brokers are offsetting trader tickets internally, not in the real interbank world,...
Sounds reasonable. I got surprised seeing Silvani even mention something like that, but since his book was an interesting read, I thought it could be a fun discussion at least.
Measure twice, cut once
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