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Andrews Pitchfork (Median Line)

  • #861
  • Jan 3, 2010 5:34pm Jan 3, 2010 5:34pm
Quoting GreatYves
Also, entry remain unclear. What is the best method to determine p2 have been drawn and we can take the trade to ML? I read about minifork and other methods but often when i have my confirmation price have already travel to far for risk ratio to be proper. I would really like to have your suggestions/solutions on this. Meanwhile here is a gold daily chart, i put a catalin fork on it. Price seems to respect lower trend line, would that be enough confirmation to go long with a very interesting R/R?
Hi GreatYves,

Thanks for your post. In my opinion (and I am no expert) I'd want a fork to have been respected more times than the chart you posted. Here is my Gold which I admit is a longer term perspective but I think you'll agree that price has respected it pretty well.

Good questions about entry - think I'll wait for others better qualified than me to comment on it...

All the best,

dgrs
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  • #862
  • Jan 3, 2010 5:42pm Jan 3, 2010 5:42pm
Good question, all these are also for me to be asked. As to which fork is " valid " at the moment, I cannot give a definite answer, as I dont have enough experience. Until now however, I find that sticking to a classic fork, BUT: adding parralel warning lines or, if price moves inside the UML and LML inner 50% lines gives very good information.

And after drawing a classic fork from Po P1 P2, then try to draw a parralel trigger line, going from P0 to P2 and FURTHER........

So if price moves outside of the inner range of the classic fork, you have an excellent area for new support and resitance. I have this from Mircea Dologa `s book " Integrated Pitchfork Analysis ", which is very good, I am reading and studying it. A good idea would be maybe of all newcomers to ML to write or compile a list of questions, then we can ask Scrutch, catalin, caveman, etc. what they say..... just and idea.

Good trading
Be like water.
  • #863
  • Jan 3, 2010 5:50pm Jan 3, 2010 5:50pm
Quoting GreatYves
I have read the entire thread and have drawn quite a lot of forks already. Some questions remains unanswered i would like to ask here. At the beginning of the thread, Catalin have shown us his modified forks initiating the ML verticaly equal to p0, horizontally equal to p2. I use this method whenever p0-p1 have a wider price range then p1-p2. I found the ML is hit more frequently this way, if it does get hit then I draw a regular pitchfork just to see if this one will get hit too, if not then can we use the "price failure" rule or should we expect...
Firstly there needs to be some change of state in price movement from p1 to p2,.

This is why Tim preaches the test and retest for entry. If the fork's frequency is valid, p2 is good, the entry angle of the fork extending from p2 should hold.

Tim looks for the following test of that angle/median line to prove buyers/sellers are there at that level, a separation from the line should follow.

Any further test immediately following the separation, should be the entry. with your stop behind the p2.

fwiw
  • #864
  • Jan 3, 2010 5:56pm Jan 3, 2010 5:56pm
the closer entry is to P1 or P2, the less success i have with the trade,
i generally avoid such entries unless there is overall confluence from other TFs, indicators etc

the more bounces off the ML, the stronger the set-up becomes,
but unfortunately this is a "generalisation", and each set-up is assessed on a case-by-case basis, so IMO no black+white can be applied
  • #865
  • Jan 3, 2010 6:35pm Jan 3, 2010 6:35pm
Quote
I have read the entire thread and have drawn quite a lot of forks already. Some questions remains unanswered i would like to ask here. At the beginning of the thread, Catalin have shown us his modified forks initiating the ML verticaly equal to p0, horizontally equal to p2. I use this method whenever p0-p1 have a wider price range then p1-p2. I found the ML is hit more frequently this way, if it does get hit then I draw a regular pitchfork just to see if this one will get hit too, if not then can we use the "price failure" rule or should we expect...
Hi,

Just to be clear, the fork Catalin showed at the beginning is not the Modified Schiff Fork. Its a fork Catalin invented and to be honest I never saw a need to use it. I don't know how he wants to call it but its not a Modified Schiff Fork. Maybe a "Catalin Fork"? I don't know.

The Schiff Fork was invented my Jeremy Schiff for trading markets with frequent vertical price moves (A-B). My understanding is he took the mid point in price between Pivot A and Pivot B and moved Pivot A to that mid point.

When he presented his work to Andrews, Andrews suggested moving Pivot A half way in time from A-B also. This was the Modified Schiff Fork and through their research it was found it describes price much better then the regular Schiff Fork during vertical price moves.

I personally only use the Modified Schiff Fork and Regular Pitchfork in my trading. Tim Morge mentioned once that 95% of the time he will use the Modified Schiff instead of the Schiff. I don't know where Catalin came up with his "Catalin Fork" and I am not saying it does not work but I just use the two forks that have been tested and proven to work over a long period of time. If you like to use the Catalin Fork, if you tested it, and it works for you, keep doing what you are doing.

So it goes like this:

Pitchfork/Median Line - drawn from alternating pivots, H-L-H or L-H-L

Schiff Fork - Pivot A moved to the mid point in price between A-B

Modified Schiff Fork - Pivot A moved to the mid point of price and time between A-B

Catalin Fork - Pivot A is moved to the cross of the time of A and price of C


Quote
Also, entry remain unclear. What is the best method to determine p2 have been drawn and we can take the trade to ML?
What helped me my entries was first developing an outlook of likely price movement. I have two ways of doing this. One is without median lines and the other is with one concept that median lines present. When I get my outlook I look for one or two forks that have the best price frequency. I like the smaller narrow forks that have already been tested multiple times and then I look for one other thing and if all is present I enter the trade. When you first draw a fork you need a reason to enter a trade with it. You need to see price respect the fork. This is seen by multiple tests and separation which it gives you confidence that sellers/buyers are going in your direction.

Quote
I read about minifork and other methods bu often when i have my confirmation price have already travel to far for risk ratio to be proper. I would really like to have your sugestions/solutions on this. Meanwhile here is a gold daily chart, i put a catalin fork on it. Price seems to respect lower trend line, would that be enough confirmation to go long with a very interesting R/R?
I am guessing you look at a higher TF and then move down to find the entry. For me this just complicates things way to much. I just stick to one TF and trade that. If I need to look at the bigger picture I zoom out but never move to another TF. You have to find what works for you, but the point when I really started improving was looking less at all the possible forks I can draw but instead finding one or two smaller forks on one TF that have great frequency.

tormo
  • #866
  • Edited 6:47pm Jan 3, 2010 6:36pm | Edited 6:47pm
there is a bit more risk taking a long off this ML at yellow,
but murrey math was saying strong support (bottom hori pink)
then daily pivot was saying exit (top hori pink)

but......you have to be watching like a hawk to pick these up
......a quick +30 available

edit: murrey math indi attached for any interested
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Attached File(s)
File Type: mq4 MML-TF v2.mq4   18 KB | 671 downloads
  • #867
  • Jan 3, 2010 8:22pm Jan 3, 2010 8:22pm
Thank you for the numerous responds. I feel proud beeing amongst such great speculators willing to share knowledge and wisdom.

I like very much the test, separation, retest type of entry, i will try using it whenever possible but will stick to my old entry method in case i missed the retest as long R/R is above 1.5, it's bearable with proper money management.

Quoting tormo
Hi,

Just to be clear, the fork Catalin showed at the beginning is not the Modified Schiff Fork. Its a fork Catalin invented and to be honest I never saw a need to use it. I don't know how he wants to call it but its not a Modified Schiff Fork. Maybe a "Catalin Fork"? I don't know.
I didn't confuse the Catalin and Modified Schiff fork, i have found numerous example where the "Catalin" fork have proven to be a better fork. I am very curious to know what's the origin of Catalin's fork, probably Timothy Morge know the answer since Catalin seems to be his webmaster. Maybe then we could properly name this type of Fork. But it's not very important. As long as we make pips out of it.

Fyi, i trade 4H time frame and check the daily and weekly chart for trend.
Harmonics and Pitchfork using korHarmonics from TradingArsenal
  • #868
  • Jan 3, 2010 8:41pm Jan 3, 2010 8:41pm
Quoting GreatYves
Thank you for the numerous responds. I feel proud beeing amongst such great speculators willing to share knowledge and wisdom.

I like very much the test, separation, retest type of entry, i will try using it whenever possible but will stick to my old entry method in case i missed the retest as long R/R is above 1.5, it's bearable with proper money management.



I didn't confuse the Catalin and Modified Schiff fork, i have found numerous example where the "Catalin" fork have proven to be a better fork. I am very curious to know what's the origin...
Be careful that the test/retest is not done in the context of the move between p1 and p2. You need to see a "change of state" as Tim puts it, or proof that the current move is finished.

Often times when price is pulsing, it will find a level where profits are being taken on consecutive attempts into the area.... giving the appearance of opposition coming in, be sure the current move/trend has broken. A fork then placed will pick up the frequency for either the following retrace or extension.

regards
  • #869
  • Jan 3, 2010 10:14pm Jan 3, 2010 10:14pm
Tormo:

How long have you been using the Andrew's Line doing real time trading? The impression you gave here is that you are a seasoned trader of the Andrew's Line. It's only months ago, out of your request, I sent out the PDF to you regarding Andrew's Lines trading, just curious. For the record, Catalin fork happens all the time in the FX market

Jeff


Quoting tormo
Hi,

Just to be clear, the fork Catalin showed at the beginning is not the Modified Schiff Fork. Its a fork Catalin invented and to be honest I never saw a need to use it. I don't know how he wants to call it but its not a Modified Schiff Fork. Maybe a "Catalin Fork"? I don't know.

The Schiff Fork was invented my Jeremy Schiff for trading markets with frequent vertical price moves (A-B). My understanding is he took the mid point in price between Pivot A and Pivot B and moved Pivot A to that mid point.

When he presented his work to Andrews,...
~*~You are only one trade away from humility~*~
  • #870
  • Jan 3, 2010 11:32pm Jan 3, 2010 11:32pm
Quoting jharteam
Tormo:

How long have you been using the Andrew's Line doing real time trading? The impression you gave here is that you are a seasoned trader of the Andrew's Line. It's only months ago, out of your request, I sent out the PDF to you regarding Andrew's Lines trading, just curious.

Jeff
HAHA, I am no seasoned trader. The first time I heard about trading was Nov 2008 and ever since just been learning and practicing and asking questions of seasoned traders like yourself (among others). I don't even trade a real account since I am a first year college student and can barely afford to pay for school, much less a trading account. I just treat my demo like a real acct and know exactly what I want and how I will get there and what question to ask/who to ask. I know a lot about my self, my weakness, strengths, how I think, why I did something, etc. From there its just following my plan and so far all is as planned. I don't know if the things I learn now will transfer over with real money but that is the position I am in right now and cant do anything about.

Quote
For the record, Catalin fork happens all the time in the FX market
Thanks, I will have to do some more research on Catalin forks. I dont think I ever saw Tim use them, I only know about Schiffs and regular forks.

tormo
  • #871
  • Jan 4, 2010 3:53am Jan 4, 2010 3:53am
hi friends
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  • #872
  • Jan 4, 2010 4:08am Jan 4, 2010 4:08am
more example
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  • #873
  • Jan 4, 2010 4:18am Jan 4, 2010 4:18am
more
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  • #874
  • Jan 4, 2010 5:05am Jan 4, 2010 5:05am
Hi all and happy new year.
porfirio i dont know how you use RSI maybe you explain.
I see you watch for divergence but when you enter in trend after divergence?
Here are my currently trade
Catalin
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  • #875
  • Jan 4, 2010 5:30am Jan 4, 2010 5:30am
AUD/USD 4h time frame
Lets see how this bar close, possible short entry
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  • #876
  • Jan 4, 2010 6:09am Jan 4, 2010 6:09am
Hi friend.
P. Andrew in d1-h4... And andrew also in tf. Inf. For enter (h1-m30 or m15)
i see first rsi 21... Second rsi 6 (for divergence)

saludos amigo.
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  • #877
  • Jan 4, 2010 6:34am Jan 4, 2010 6:34am
Quoting justcatalin
Hi all and happy new year.
porfirio i dont know how you use RSI maybe you explain.
I see you watch for divergence but when you enter in trend after divergence?
Here are my currently trade
Catalin
Thank you catalin and porfirio, at last good realistic examples again. catalin from where did you draw that downward sloping blue ML ? ( where was your P0, P1 and P2 ? ). How do you decide which fork to use ? On eurusd, how did you find confidence to buy so early, although this larger fork was not extensively retested ?

porfirio . thank you, i was looking at RSI for confirmation too, seems to be a clever way to do it, please send any examples if possible.
Thank you both of you !

eurusd : I am trying to look at it with all sorts of possible angles, just to practise....should be jan04, not dec04
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Be like water.
  • #878
  • Jan 4, 2010 6:52am Jan 4, 2010 6:52am
msmarple here are the chart with some explications
I hope is useful.
On NZD/USD i mark 1, 2 ,3 starting point for my fork then i use schiff fork
Catalin
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  • #879
  • Jan 4, 2010 9:20am Jan 4, 2010 9:20am
is consolidation over
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  • #880
  • Jan 4, 2010 10:05am Jan 4, 2010 10:05am
Quoting justcatalin
msmarple here are the chart with some explications
I hope is useful.
On NZD/USD i mark 1, 2 ,3 starting point for my fork then i use schiff fork
Catalin
Thank you, I understand better. Phheeew, needs a lot of experience, but much more " framework " of the market than just fibs.

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Be like water.
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