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Andrews Pitchfork (Median Line)

  • #801
  • Dec 15, 2009 1:36pm Dec 15, 2009 1:36pm
You need three picks to draw the Andrews...1 2 3 or A B C, or the way Andrews always named them...P0 P1 P2
Quoting big_pipin
ancor p0?...
If you want a Catalin formation here you would need to move your horizontal line up to the P2 price, then move your P0 upwards to the new intersection.
Looking at your chart (I don't have any data for BA) I don't think the 1/2 Schiff or the Schiff would contain price very well.
Quoting big_pipin
if price reacts to the median line, then isnt the fork valid? how would you re-draw my fork you said was incorrect?
Listen to the whispers.... You may learn something
  • #802
  • Dec 15, 2009 2:01pm Dec 15, 2009 2:01pm
Quoting Scrutch
You need three picks to draw the Andrews...1 2 3 or A B C, or the way Andrews always named them...P0 P1 P2


If you want a Catalin formation here you would need to move your horizontal line up to the P2 price, then move your P0 upwards to the new intersection.
Looking at your chart (I don't have any data for BA) I don't think the 1/2 Schiff or the Schiff would contain price very well.
whats a catalin formation? i did a google search and came up empty.
  • #803
  • Dec 15, 2009 2:09pm Dec 15, 2009 2:09pm
lol nm, thats a members name on the board .
  • #804
  • Dec 15, 2009 2:11pm Dec 15, 2009 2:11pm
Think the only place you're going to find it is on this thread. It's a formation that justcatalin (originator of this thread) presented. None of the other formations involve using P2 in the calculations for the P0 anchor, so it's a bit different than the original formations.

Quoting big_pipin
whats a catalin formation? i did a google search and came up empty.
Listen to the whispers.... You may learn something
  • #805
  • Dec 15, 2009 2:49pm Dec 15, 2009 2:49pm
SO I take it, Justcatalin's version of mod schiff forks isnt one that tim himself would use? I found this link on how to draw a true mod schiff fork, but i dont understand what its saying

http://www.linnsoft.com/tour/techind/pitchfork.htm
  • #806
  • Dec 15, 2009 3:22pm Dec 15, 2009 3:22pm
@ Big Pipin

I'm pretty new to this myself, but I think you need to consider price action or "market structure" as Tim Morge calls it.

By this, I mean, try to get the handle of your fork on a confirmed top or bottom.

How do you know it's confirmed?

Well, for a low, you look to see if you get a higher high and a higher low after it. If you get this confirmation, then you can draw your fork.

Any of the other more experienced forkers, please feel free to add comments/correct me as necessary!
  • #807
  • Dec 15, 2009 4:00pm Dec 15, 2009 4:00pm
Quoting big_pipin
The only problem i have with forks is that by the time you get a valid fork, its usually at the point of failure because the markets either at one extreme or the other.

To combat this, one needs to have more than one fork, which complicates the matter.
Big Pipin,

Think of median sets, a.k.a. pitchforks as a leading channel indicator. The median line represents the 50% retracement of the vector or frequency that is created by the space and distance of 3 alternating reversals ( or better changes of state) in price action on a chart. Note: the actual placement can be at the ends of a range, not necessarily the high or low point that's printed inside the range, the pitchfork measures both time and distance in it's angle, so the origination points of the fork are placed where they best encompass the price action between the 3 points.

As for a Modified Schiff (moving the forks handle 50% in both time and distance to the 2nd or B point) gives you the natural channel of the 3 points in question, and holds as much geometry as a normal median set, imho.

When a set is drawn it is expected that price will move inside the lines or channel/frequency , when price fails or exceeds the lines it gives clues to it's next intent.

Like any tool, it is as good as the user. I use forks everyday as they give the best targets and areas to watch.

fwiw,
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  • #808
  • Dec 15, 2009 4:05pm Dec 15, 2009 4:05pm
that purple schiff fork...for the bottom p3 line, i see price is trading inside it, but the p3 line isnt connected to price. is this allowed?
  • #809
  • Dec 15, 2009 4:48pm Dec 15, 2009 4:48pm
Quoting big_pipin
that purple schiff fork...for the bottom p3 line, i see price is trading inside it, but the p3 line isnt connected to price. is this allowed?
I just copied the lines and placed them, here's a better look at the m.schiff ( handle moved down and over 50%) and a 50% fib channel, that i normally use to draw schiffs
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  • #810
  • Dec 15, 2009 5:05pm Dec 15, 2009 5:05pm
Quoting auxesis
Big Pipin,

Think of median sets, a.k.a. pitchforks as a leading channel indicator....
This an excellent chart for me to learn.
Be like water.
  • #811
  • Dec 15, 2009 7:06pm Dec 15, 2009 7:06pm
how do you guys measure the 50% mark when making a schiff fork?.................. I dont think im doing mine right all the time, but even the "wrong" forks seem valid

heres what I do:

1. I draw a fib retracement of the fork i want measured, then I draw a blue line through the fib.

2. Where the blue line and the green 50% fib line cross, is my 50% mark ( the black fork)

3. but sometimes I'll slide the p0 line over to where its vertically adjacent to the bottom on the trend being mesured ( the purple fib )

as you can see from this chart, both forks actually had bounces off their lines.
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  • #812
  • Dec 15, 2009 8:45pm Dec 15, 2009 8:45pm
just some thoughts, hand drawn warning line from the modified schiff, it may not be exact, but it shows the intended idea, also drew in what should be close to the original fork, you had a broken bottom median retest.
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  • #813
  • Dec 16, 2009 9:03am Dec 16, 2009 9:03am
The crossing of the P0~P1 line with the 50% fib will not divide time in half. If you do a mouse click on the trendline you have drawn between P0 and P1 you will see the grips. The grips are the little square boxes that show at the start, center and end of the line. You may have to double click to expose the grips depending on how your properties are set. Then just drag your Andrews P0 to the grip that is at the center of the P0~P1 trendline and you're done. Be aware that if there are an even number of bars between P0 and P1, spot on center will be between two bars and you are not allowed to place any MT4 objects between two price bars.

Quoting big_pipin
how do you guys measure the 50% mark when making a schiff fork?.................. I dont think im doing mine right all the time, but even the "wrong" forks seem valid
heres what I do:
1. I draw a fib retracement of the fork i want measured, then I draw a blue line through the fib.
2. Where the blue line and the green 50% fib line cross, is my 50% mark ( the black fork)
Listen to the whispers.... You may learn something
  • #814
  • Dec 16, 2009 1:33pm Dec 16, 2009 1:33pm
Quoting Scrutch
The crossing of the P0~P1 line with the 50% fib will not divide time in half. If you do a mouse click on the trendline you have drawn between P0 and P1 you will see the grips. The grips are the little square boxes that show at the start, center and end of the line. You may have to double click to expose the grips depending on how your properties are set. Then just drag your Andrews P0 to the grip that is at the center of the P0~P1 trendline and you're done. Be aware that if there are an even number of bars between P0 and P1, spot on...
i dont use mt4, this is esignal. as far as i know there is no way to measure the center of a line unless you measure it with a fib tool.
  • #815
  • Dec 16, 2009 3:13pm Dec 16, 2009 3:13pm
The way I used to do it in MT4 [before I got the excellent indicator for modifying median lines] was to:

1. Draw a rectangle taking in P0 and P1 in opposite corners, so that if P0 is in bottom left corner, P1 is in top right - and if P0 is in top left corner, P1 is in bottom right.

2. Then draw a trendline from opposite corners, thereby effectively finding the middle of this box.

3. That intersection [in the middle] is the point for the end of your modified schiff fork.

4. Remove the temporary trendlines!

I have shown in the attached chart how you could do it fairly easily.

However, much easier to switch to MT4 and use the aforementioned indicator.......
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  • #816
  • Edited 3:31pm Dec 16, 2009 3:19pm | Edited 3:31pm
I have never used esignal charting so not sure what the options are you have. There might be a couple of different ways you could do this though depending on the tools available. If you can draw ture circles then you could use two circles to approximate the center of the P0~P1 line...or...if you have a time fib available, you could use a regular fib and a time fib, where the 50% of both fibs cross would be the center. Just a thought, perhaps someone has done a better Andrews drawing routine for esignal.
Kind of strange there are no grips shown with your esignal...how are you able to drag your lines around without any grips showing?
Quoting big_pipin
i dont use mt4, this is esignal. as far as i know there is no way to measure the center of a line unless you measure it with a fib tool.
Edit: Looking on the site for esignal and doing a search I found this dialog box and the explaination that the modified button will change the angle of the formation...have you tried this?
Attached Image
Listen to the whispers.... You may learn something
  • #817
  • Dec 16, 2009 3:56pm Dec 16, 2009 3:56pm
I was trading forks off SPY (s&p 500 ets) tick charts. Anyone else trade off tick charts? I know tick charts is how tim trades mostly isnt it? except he trades futures.
  • #818
  • Dec 16, 2009 6:00pm Dec 16, 2009 6:00pm
I took this with a tiny position to practice........;-)

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Be like water.
  • #819
  • Dec 16, 2009 6:20pm Dec 16, 2009 6:20pm
Quoting Gt3rs
The way I used to do it in MT4 [before I got the excellent indicator for modifying median lines] was to:

1. Draw a rectangle taking in P0 and P1 in opposite corners, so that if P0 is in bottom left corner, P1 is in top right - and if P0 is in top left corner, P1 is in bottom right.

2. Then draw a trendline from opposite corners, thereby effectively finding the middle of this box.

3. That intersection [in the middle] is the point for the end of your modified schiff fork.

4. Remove the temporary trendlines!

I have shown in the attached chart...
Thanks for the hint, I know that many ML people use Ensign and I am considering it too. This is really a unique way of looking at the market. I know about that indicator. Will report...;-)
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Be like water.
  • #820
  • Dec 17, 2009 5:27am Dec 17, 2009 5:27am
anyone see tims new video on his site? very informative.
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