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Andrews Pitchfork (Median Line)

  • #661
  • Oct 29, 2009 8:10pm Oct 29, 2009 8:10pm
Peter, I know that the two charts you posted are different scales but...chart in post #641 = ChartA, chart in post #658 = ChartB

ChartA: When price crosses above the Median Line for the first time after P2, the next bar apperars to be much longer than the same bar in ChartB.

ChartA: When price makes the first push up towards the Upper Median Line and then crosses below the Median Line, the next bar appears to be much longer than the same bar in ChartB.

Couple of other examples but these are the ones that really jumped out at me.

Let me know if there's anyway I can help.

Quoting PeterE
yes, a serious pain in the u know what

when i said i spent all morning drawing, i was actually rebuilding the symbol, data and MLs from beginning, . . . . starting anew

FT rotates for me, its auto m.schiff, so not manual mouse moving

i started from scratch again this morning, deleting symbol etc etc, so cant compare to MT4 i'm afraid

but if it does it again i'll have to move onto ensign i think, its very time wasting rebuilding from scratch

i dont think the data feed is corrupt, i think its something to do with how FT is translating the...
Listen to the whispers.... You may learn something
  • #662
  • Oct 29, 2009 8:30pm Oct 29, 2009 8:30pm
thanks for helping scrutch

in chart at #658 you'll see tiny small range bars, these represent my Sat morn data (= Fri evening US), this chart didnt draw MLs correctly

in chart at #641, these tiny bars do not appear for some reason and the MLs have drawn correctly, making me think its how i'm collecting my data

but, this theory is confused by the fact that my latest EU chart also includes Sat data, but the MLs are good

what to do..............................


Quoting Scrutch
Peter, I know that the two charts you posted are different scales but...chart in post #641 = ChartA, chart in post #658 = ChartB

ChartA: When price crosses above the Median Line for the first time after P2, the next bar apperars to be much longer than the same bar in ChartB.

ChartA: When price makes the first push up towards the Upper Median Line and then crosses below the Median Line, the next bar appears to be much longer than the same bar in ChartB.

Couple of other examples but these are the ones that really jumped out at me.

Let me know...
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  • #663
  • Oct 29, 2009 9:19pm Oct 29, 2009 9:19pm
Quoting pips4life
Hey Scrutch...
To "argue" about it would indeed be as pointless as the chicken-or-egg argument.
I'm thinking this guy had something to do with it...

Quoting pips4life
I'm just choosing to go with the material as given on Tim Morge's site and his associate Greg Fisher. Having said that, I've never seen any material referring to "1/2 Shiff" before, and so if indeed there is some better definitive evidence as to which is the proper labelling that disagrees with mine, well then bring it on. I'm open to reviewing it and changing my mind if persuaded.
Ok, I'll see if you can be persuaded, although I don't write as eloquently as you...
My source is much like yours, student of Dr. Andrews, so both our research is derived from a *second hand* level, so to speak. My source material is probably more recent than what Tim Morge has and I have no idea if it differed from the earlier material. Gordon of Pitchfork Primer, was a student of Dr. Andrews in the early 80's, taking the Andrews course and attending seminars. I was mistaken about Jerome not naming his formation, Gordon said that he did name it. Jerome coined his formation the Schiff 1/2 ML, and had it's P0 anchor at the midpoint of P0~P1 on a vertical line at P0 time. Gordon couldn't find anything in his course or seminar notes about whether Andrews actually originated the Schiff himself or not, but Andrews did give this description (with an illustration) describing a rule. The first line is from Gordon and what follows is a direct quote from the material that Gordon received from Dr. Andrews:
* 0-1 Schiff 3-4 rule. The first pivot is a P0, and here's how he described it: *
"The Schiff ML line starts half way between P0 and P1, and divides the distance between P3 and P4. When prices move to new highs later and meet the extension of this new ML, it signals strong probability that a major trend reversal is about to start."
Listen to the whispers.... You may learn something
  • #664
  • Oct 29, 2009 9:53pm Oct 29, 2009 9:53pm
Quoting PeterE
thanks for helping scrutch

in chart at #658 you'll see tiny small range bars, these represent my Sat morn data (= Fri evening US), this chart didnt draw MLs correctly

in chart at #641, these tiny bars do not appear for some reason and the MLs have drawn correctly, making me think its how i'm collecting my data

but, this theory is confused by the fact that my latest EU chart also includes Sat data, but the MLs are good

what to do..............................
Well...you did say that with chart 641 you deleted all the symbols and started completly over...?
I think that the real short range bars are from Sunday (US) afternoon. I don't receive any data on Friday after 5pm Eastern and it doesn't start again until Sunday at 5pm Eastern. The small range bars most likely start at that time and run until 24:00 and then it begins building a new bar.

You could try the 30 day free trial with Ensign and see if that would work for you, or use MetaTrader if you can find a MT broker you fell cozy with, or see if FT tech can help.

Put a P0 at the most recent bar showing above the ML to the left of your vertical pink arrow, P1 at the bar almost touching the 1/8 line (just to the left of your pink arrow) and P2 at the bar your far right diagonal pink arrow is touching. See how ugly that looks...I've been trading off this today, it's a minor energy point. Course I don't have all them little baby bars between things either. See how close it is to the chart I posted at #649
Listen to the whispers.... You may learn something
  • #665
  • Oct 29, 2009 10:41pm Oct 29, 2009 10:41pm
yes they are Saturday (US Fri arvo),
i'm in Aus, the data doesnt feed again until Mon, which is Sun for US

nevertheless, this hasnt been an issue using 20min charts, its only been since switching to day charts.

i'll need to figure out a way to get FT to construct just 5 bars/wk for day charts
  • #666
  • Oct 29, 2009 11:04pm Oct 29, 2009 11:04pm
Quoting Scrutch
See how close it is to the chart I posted at #649
Scrutch, your chart on #649 has Sunday bars. That means 6-bars-per-week, however, your lines look pretty good, and almost the same as my 5-day-per-week equivalent. It seems as if your daily 00:00 occurs at maybe 11PM NY ? I'm guessing by eyeballing your extra bars and comparing to my hourly bars which is tough to do with accuracy.

If you don't mind, please go to http://www.worldtimezone.com/index24.php and in the lower middle, note the time where it says GMT. Then look at your MT4 Market Watch window -- what time does it say? Finally, what time is it in NY?

For me, the answers at this moment are:
GMT = 04:02
Broker = 07:02
NY = 00:02

You don't have to say but if you don't mind, what MT4 broker is your charts? I might get a demo feed to work with and compare to my own (IKON GM, which I use for charts but this does not imply any endorsement).


Your most recent Andrews pitchfork has a different high point than I would expect. Are you off by a bar or did you choose the lower-high deliberately?
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  • #667
  • Oct 29, 2009 11:24pm Oct 29, 2009 11:24pm
i am converted, my charts now begin at 7am Aus (=5pm NY, which changes Sun i believe!!), so no baby bars and FT should cease rearranging my MLs.............back to trading
  • #668
  • Oct 29, 2009 11:36pm Oct 29, 2009 11:36pm
Pips


Attached is a pic (EU) of Go Markets in Aus

Charts start (DST) 18:00 NY; 17:00 non-DST Nov 1st
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  • #669
  • Oct 30, 2009 9:19am Oct 30, 2009 9:19am
Quoting pips4life
Scrutch, your chart on #649 has Sunday bars. That means 6-bars-per-week, however, your lines look pretty good, and almost the same as my 5-day-per-week equivalent. It seems as if your daily 00:00 occurs at maybe 11PM NY ? I'm guessing by eyeballing your extra bars and comparing to my hourly bars which is tough to do with accuracy.
Oki, thought all MT charts had six bars per week...see me post #650 where I replied to you. Yes, I did read the second paragraph but it just didn't dawn on me that this would make a daily-five-per-week chart happen. I looked at their site and see it's a UK based server and didn't figure that I would get the 5pm NY close by using that, although you did say that's what you prefer...? Care to elaborate...
Quoting pips4life
If you don't mind, please go to http://www.worldtimezone.com/index24.php and in the lower middle, note the time where it says GMT. Then look at your MT4 Market Watch window -- what time does it say? Finally, what time is it in NY?

For me, the answers at this moment are:
GMT = 04:02
Broker = 07:02
NY = 00:02
GMT = 11:30
ATC = 7:30
NY = 7:30
ATC is a NY based server and this gives me the 5pm start/stop bars, but not the 5 day charts for sure.
Quoting pips4life
Your most recent Andrews pitchfork has a different high point than I would expect. Are you off by a bar or did you choose the lower-high deliberately?
No, not off a bar, used the open (a few pips below the high) for this anchor. Andrews stated to move the P0 anchor to the start of the larger degree move down, even though this may not be the highest high/lowest low. I've just followed that same theory on the other anchors as well. I will use either the open/high/low/close for an anchor, just depends on which one makes the harmonics look the best. Then I may adjust anchors, as the move progresses, if I see a better place to reflect the vibration.

Now, a couple of questions for you:
What are you using to simulate the Gann Grid and how do you get the angles to line up with two different Andrews formations?
How are you ploting a label on your LML's, by hand or by code?
Any/all of the above have something to do with your object manager?
Listen to the whispers.... You may learn something
  • #670
  • Oct 30, 2009 9:20am Oct 30, 2009 9:20am
Quoting PeterE
i am converted, my charts now begin at 7am Aus (=5pm NY, which changes Sun i believe!!), so no baby bars and FT should cease rearranging my MLs.............back to trading
Listen to the whispers.... You may learn something
  • #671
  • Oct 30, 2009 11:57am Oct 30, 2009 11:57am
Scalping the AU this am...
At the moment the light blue formation is a what if, just dragging P2 until the PA shows respect for the ML. Been on both sides of this guy several times this morning and currently short again, time will tell.

The down sloper has the P0 = high of 10/21, P1 = low of 10/26 and P2 = second high of 10/27. Zoomed out to show the anchors but it compresses the chart so much you can't see what's happening.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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Listen to the whispers.... You may learn something
  • #672
  • Oct 30, 2009 10:08pm Oct 30, 2009 10:08pm
Quoting Scrutch
Oki, thought all MT charts had six bars per week...see me post #650 where I replied to you. Yes, I did read the second paragraph but it just didn't dawn on me that this would make a daily-five-per-week chart happen. I looked at their site and see it's a UK based server and didn't figure that I would get the 5pm NY close by using that, although you did say that's what you prefer...? Care to elaborate...GMT = 11:30
ATC = 7:30
NY = 7:30
ATC is a NY based server and this gives me the 5pm start/stop bars, but not the 5 day charts for sure....
Sorry, been gone all day but am now getting around to responding...

Most MT4 feeds do have an extra (usually Sunday) bar but that's not due to where they're based. The feed I'm using is also based in NY, yet it is completely their choice as to how they want to align the "00:00" start of a Daily bar to any timezone in the world. In my case, the GMT+3 alignment has the advantage that when it's 4:59PM EDT in NY, a Daily bar is closing at the bar time of 23:59. At 5:00PM EDT, a new bar forms. (Next week, my broker will shift to EST and the alignment will then be GMT+2. My broker will stay in alignment with NY 5PM year round).

The answers you gave for the times tell me that your MT4 broker time and NY ET time are identical (You said "7:30" and "7:30"). That means that you get a new Daily bar at midnight, NY! Of course on Sunday, you'll also get a new Daily bar whenever your broker starts up, and from what you said, that is Sunday 5PM ET; however that first bar-of-the-week will only be 7 hours long, then each day thereafter, you'll get a new bar until the last (6th) bar on Friday. That final Friday (4:59PM close) bar will only be (24-7=) 17 hours of trading data.

Given the time answers you gave, I don't see how this statement of yours can be true (except on Sunday only): "ATC is a NY based server and this gives me the 5pm start/stop bars..."

I hope this doesn't sound like an argument or any big deal. It's not. I hope I'm just pointing out some details for better understanding. I will also reiterate that while I use and prefer 5-bar-per-week charts, there's nothing that says your 6-bars-per-week charts are any less valid. Heck, Tim prefers using tick charts and that removes any absolute time reference from the charts entirely! Clearly they still work. (I wish MT4 had decent tick charts (and also range bars) because I would use them too).

My preference to 5-bars-per-week is for the evenness and simplicity and alignment with the natural trading calendar. Each Daily bar is 24 hours and there are 5 of them ( Some brokers may cut off an hour on Friday or Sunday and have a day of only 23 hours but hey, who cares). I like that a moving average does not overly weigh the extra bar in the calculation. It's just personal preference but I have not done any extensive comparison with other charts. My true preference would be to use whatever "works", that is, whatever helps frame the price action to give an edge in trading. Hence, I'm open to studying alternatives with the extra bars.



Quote
No, not off a bar, used the open (a few pips below the high) for this anchor. Andrews stated to move the P0 anchor to the start of the larger degree move down, even though this may not be the highest high/lowest low. I've just followed that same theory on the other anchors as well. I will use either the open/high/low/close for an anchor, just depends on which one makes the harmonics look the best. Then I may adjust anchors, as the move progresses, if I see a better place to reflect the vibration.
Good points. I usually prefer to apply a consistent standard to see how that plays out. Usually that's using the actual highest high(s) and lowest low(s). Sometimes I can see it works better to use the 2nd (P1) and 3rd(P2) points to encapsulate the widest area. You are the first to bring to my attention the possibility of shifting each point by a bar or so to mark the start or end of the energy of a move. I'll keep that in mind... We agree that observing the resonance of a fork is essential, and I too will move it around to see if something else works better.

(More comments in my next post)
  • #673
  • Oct 30, 2009 10:54pm Oct 30, 2009 10:54pm
Quoting Scrutch
Now, a couple of questions for you:
What are you using to simulate the Gann Grid and how do you get the angles to line up with two different Andrews formations?
How are you ploting a label on your LML's, by hand or by code?
Any/all of the above have something to do with your object manager?
I couldn't stand how clumsy and limited MT4 is with respect to Pitchforks (and other areas), so over the last couple of years, I wrote my own "P4L Object Manager" that performs a huge number of tasks, among them the drawing of pitchfork variations (Schiff, Mod. Schiff, PR3 (i.e. Catalin's), A/R's and a bunch of others -- 10 so far. It also draws parallels, mid-parallels and quarters (what you call 1/8ths) or thirds (1/6ths??). These are not Gann Grid objects but rather Fibo-Channels with appropriate values for the levels, that align using the same slope and pitch as the pitchforks. One draws the Andrews and the rest are done by program. All objects move trivially when you adjust the original Andrews PF, and the reason you may have thought it was a Gann Grid is because one can draw any number of Andrews PFs and add pars/mids/quarters for whichever ones you want. (2-3 is a practical limit for clarity). My last posted chart had 3 and the crossings do indeed resemble Gann Grids -- but they're not.

It has not been posted anywhere. Uh, not sure what I'm gonna do with it (apart from using it of course). Send me a PM.
  • #674
  • Edited 10:02am Oct 31, 2009 9:45am | Edited 10:02am
Quoting pips4life
Most MT4 feeds do have an extra (usually Sunday) bar but that's not due to where they're based. The feed I'm using is also based in NY, yet it is completely their choice as to how they want to align the "00:00" start of a Daily bar to any timezone in the world. In my case, the GMT+3 alignment has the advantage that when it's 4:59PM EDT in NY, a Daily bar is closing at the bar time of 23:59. At 5:00PM EDT, a new bar forms. (Next week, my broker will shift to EST and the alignment will then be GMT+2. My broker will stay in alignment with NY 5PM...
Did not know that a NY server would use different times than EST/EDT...interesting.

Quote
The answers you gave for the times tell me that your MT4 broker time and NY ET time are identical (You said "7:30" and "7:30"). That means that you get a new Daily bar at midnight, NY! Of course on Sunday, you'll also get a new Daily bar whenever your broker starts up, and from what you said, that is Sunday 5PM ET; however that first bar-of-the-week will only be 7 hours long, then each day thereafter, you'll get a new bar until the last (6th) bar on Friday. That final Friday (4:59PM close) bar will only be (24-7=) 17 hours of trading data.
Understand this, but as I mentioned before...thought all MT platforms had six day weeks.

Quote
Given the time answers you gave, I don't see how this statement of yours can be true (except on Sunday only): "ATC is a NY based server and this gives me the 5pm start/stop bars..."
In retrospect, I should have not made this statement...what I was trying to imply was that I could easily look to the 17:00 bar to see where the start/stop was, even though it shows the wrong date. Sheeeez, anybody can do that regradless of what time their server uses...

Quote
I hope this doesn't sound like an argument or any big deal. It's not. I hope I'm just pointing out some details for better understanding. I will also reiterate that while I use and prefer 5-bar-per-week charts, there's nothing that says your 6-bars-per-week charts are any less valid. Heck, Tim prefers using tick charts and that removes any absolute time reference from the charts entirely! Clearly they still work. (I wish MT4 had decent tick charts (and also range bars) because I would use them too).
Not taken as an argument...taken as information. I used the tic charts and range bars a lot when I was trading the indices. With the right tic chart the harmonics with the Median Lines were sweet.
Quote
My preference to 5-bars-per-week is for the evenness and simplicity and alignment with the natural trading calendar. Each Daily bar is 24 hours and there are 5 of them ( Some brokers may cut off an hour on Friday or Sunday and have a day of only 23 hours but hey, who cares). I like that a moving average does not overly weigh the extra bar in the calculation. It's just personal preference but I have not done any extensive comparison with other charts. My true preference would be to use whatever "works", that is, whatever helps frame the price action...
My idea of the five day week data comes from the observation of the amount of good/bad hits I get crunching cycle data...the five day week (edit: with the NY 17:00 start/stop) has a much higher rate of accuracy. On predictive drawing tools, I have not made an extensive study...might be a good project for the future.

Quote
Good points. I usually prefer to apply a consistent standard to see how that plays out. Usually that's using the actual highest high(s) and lowest low(s). Sometimes I can see it works better to use the 2nd (P1) and 3rd(P2) points to encapsulate the widest area. You are the first to bring to my attention the possibility of shifting each point by a bar or so to mark the start or end of the energy of a move. I'll keep that in mind... We agree that observing the resonance of a fork is essential, and I too will move it around to see if something else...
Cool...so we are both still learning......when the learning ends, then it's over.
Listen to the whispers.... You may learn something
  • #675
  • Oct 31, 2009 10:10am Oct 31, 2009 10:10am
Quoting pips4life
I couldn't stand how clumsy and limited MT4 is with respect to Pitchforks (and other areas), so over the last couple of years, I wrote my own "P4L Object Manager" that performs a huge number of tasks, among them the drawing of pitchfork variations (Schiff, Mod. Schiff, PR3 (i.e. Catalin's), A/R's and a bunch of others -- 10 so far. It also draws parallels, mid-parallels and quarters (what you call 1/8ths) or thirds (1/6ths??). These are not Gann Grid objects but rather Fibo-Channels with appropriate values for the levels, that align using the...
Interesting that they are based on Leonardo and not WD...
But if the divisions are by eights, or a derivative of eights, doesn't that lean a bit more towards WD...?
Listen to the whispers.... You may learn something
  • #676
  • Nov 1, 2009 2:24am Nov 1, 2009 2:24am
i'm probably a little one-eyed but have found esignal to give the best Fx feed - although i havent tried them all obviously

free feeds such as IB and MT4 wont be giving you every tick, which can mean sometimes price may not reach the ML where you would like your limit order to get filled

having said that, to draw definitive conclusions would require significant testing..............which data feed resonates best with the same ML sets across numerous feeds, as well as which feeds spawn the best ML sets; not to mention the effects data collection times has on bigger tfs

i raised this at the MG forum a while back, no one was interested; i guess in the end it doesnt really matter, most ML sets drawn correctly will eventually offer trades, even with free data


Quoting Scrutch
I switched to IB feed at that time as that's my broker and the data is free...end of my problems.
  • #677
  • Nov 1, 2009 8:32am Nov 1, 2009 8:32am
Quoting PeterE
i'm probably a little one-eyed but have found esignal to give the best Fx feed - although i havent tried them all obviously
I don't remember if I traded any 4x when I first started using the IB data feed. Eventually Ensign offered free 4x feed with FXCM as the provider.
Quote
free feeds such as IB and MT4 wont be giving you every tick, which can mean sometimes price may not reach the ML where you would like your limit order to get filled
My objective was to trade the indices when I started used IB's data and it seemed to be spot on, better than eSignal...at the time.

Quote
having said that, to draw definitive conclusions would require significant testing..............which data feed resonates best with the same ML sets across numerous feeds, as well as which feeds spawn the best ML sets; not to mention the effects data collection times has on bigger tfs

i raised this at the MG forum a while back, no one was interested; i guess in the end it doesnt really matter, most ML sets drawn correctly will eventually offer trades, even with free data
Listen to the whispers.... You may learn something
  • #678
  • Nov 2, 2009 8:59am Nov 2, 2009 8:59am
Easing into long postion...expecting a move upwards...
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  • #679
  • Nov 2, 2009 11:45am Nov 2, 2009 11:45am
15MIN EU
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"GIVE ME 3 POINTS IN SPACE IN TIME AND WATCH ME CREATE MAGIC."
  • #680
  • Nov 2, 2009 12:04pm Nov 2, 2009 12:04pm
A bit longer term perspective...
Quoting kapital
15MIN EU
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Listen to the whispers.... You may learn something
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