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Andrews Pitchfork (Median Line)

  • #641
  • Oct 28, 2009 10:11pm Oct 28, 2009 10:11pm
thanks for the reply there scrutch, shall look into it

in the mean time have spent all morning messing about with EU chart, finally deleted the symbol and started from scratch (scrutch!), the chart below shows a very different picture, . . . and similar to yours
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  • #642
  • Oct 28, 2009 10:24pm Oct 28, 2009 10:24pm
AUD & EUR
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  • #643
  • Oct 28, 2009 10:32pm Oct 28, 2009 10:32pm
Spot on...
Peter, which software program are you using for these charts?
Quoting PeterE
thanks for the reply there scrutch, shall look into it
in the mean time have spent all morning messing about with EU chart, finally deleted the symbol and started from scratch (scrutch!), the chart below shows a very different picture, . . . and similar to yours
Quoting PeterE
scratch (scrutch!)...
Took 75% off just above the 1/8 line and cranked stop down nice and snug.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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Listen to the whispers.... You may learn something
  • #644
  • Oct 28, 2009 10:56pm Oct 28, 2009 10:56pm
lucky you, . . . . see, you dont want to be battling the technology as well

Quoting Scrutch
Took 75% off just above the 1/8 line and cranked stop down nice and snug.
i'm feeding esignal into Fibonacci Trader. I'd prefer to be using Ensign, but the transition is unplesant, so am resisting it, . . . . . until that day when FT makes me snap

Quote
which software program are you using for these charts?
  • #645
  • Oct 29, 2009 12:05am Oct 29, 2009 12:05am
Hi Scrutch, PeterE,

Good to see some serious discussion of PF issues and techniques.

With respect to the various start-of-day times, I haven't really found a way to use a given MT4 feed and synthesize different Daily bars. I know there are tools to synthesize non-existent timeframes, such as an M20, but to my knowledge, I don't know how to create an offline chart with a different start-of-day for a purely Daily chart. This would be very useful. Do you know of some method?

For me, I like the NY 5:00PM changeover for Daily bars, and so I use a data feed that creates those Daily bars. (e.g. IKON GM).

One thing to like about that NY 5:00PM time changeover is that there are exactly 5 24-hour daily bars. New Zealand/Australia start trading Monday AM perhaps 1-2 hours earlier but with such low liquidity, my broker ignores that data and starts up on Sunday, NY 5:00PM (chart time is Monday 00:00). And then on the other end of the week, Friday NY 4:59PM is the end of the 5th Daily bar-of-the-week (chart time is Friday 23:59).

Regarding the EU chart by PeterE that had such a different slope for a Modified Schiff (50/50 price & time), I have a guess as to why. While it
is true that the start-of-day time can shift any of the 3 PF points forward or backward by 1 Daily bar compared to another data feed, a much more important reason is that many data feeds have an extra Daily bar for Sunday. A datafeed with Sunday bars between PF points can significantly alter the slope of a long-term Daily PF. Peter, can you please comment on whether your feed has Sunday bars or not? If it does, that means 6-bars-per-week instead of the more natural choice of 5-bars-per-week. Either of these two reasons (Sunday bars, and/or 1 or more PF points shifting by a bar) could account for the different slope.

The PF that Peter ended up using, while not an official Mod. Schiff (or any other derived PF) on my datafeed, it obviously did have resonance and one could have drawn it and labelled it as an AP0 (Alternate Point of Origin) PF.


Attached is an hourly EU chart. The black Andrews PF is perhaps the beginning of a new major downward PF. Price has stalled at the ML. However, for the fun of it, I will point out the earlier orange Andrews PF and it's variation, the magenta Modified Schiff (50/50) PF. The orange PF clearly played a role in the past but was broken long ago. Price then appeared to be somewhat in alignment with the magenta Mod. Schiff. It wasn't strongly in resonance then and might have been ignored. Notice however how the parallels and mid-parallels of the Mod. Schiff and the orange Andrews are still playing a role in this latest downturn from the very peak to the present price action. Parallels do make a difference!


Kent (pips4life)


P.S.
Here's a couple of time tips...

I got fed up with keeping track of world ST/DT changes, and although there were some MT4 indicators that showed clock times, they were complicated to set up and were often wrong during at least one or two times of the year.

So... I rewrote a clock indicator, "P4L Clock.mq4", and fixed all those problems. It works for any broker feed, from any user's computer regardless of your local timezone, and it correctly displays the various market timezones. It handles each markets' independent ST/DT changeover dates, and also highlights when a particular market is open using a different color. Go to this thread:
Quoting pips4life
New very cool CandleTime and session time Clock indicators
I also like the following web page for world time zones:
http://www.worldtimezone.com/index24.php
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  • #646
  • Oct 29, 2009 12:22am Oct 29, 2009 12:22am
hi Kent,

good to have a few more forkers starting to contribute to the conversation, was feeling quite lonely

yes i do include sunday, but discovered my chart was messed up because the data wasnt feeding properly. this has now been rectified

thanks for all the bits of info

Peter

Quoting pips4life
For me, I like the NY 5:00PM changeover for Daily bars, and so I use a data feed that creates those Daily bars. (e.g. IKON GM).

One thing to like about that NY 5:00PM time changeover is that there are exactly 5 24-hour daily bars....
  • #647
  • Oct 29, 2009 1:22am Oct 29, 2009 1:22am
Quoting PeterE
hi Kent,

good to have a few more forkers starting to contribute to the conversation, was feeling quite lonely
Glad to keep you company. What will keep my interest the most, I have to say, is folks giving posts about some fresh trade opportunities as they happen. It's frustrating to see perfect fork bounces well after the fact when it's no longer quite as safe and as high a probability as it was.

Quote
yes i do include sunday, but discovered my chart was messed up because the data wasnt feeding properly. this has now been rectified
Sunday bars will definitely change the slope. That doesn't mean it's wrong compared to 5-day-per-week charts, just different. It would be interesting to study more in depth the relative resonance of each feed. I'll probably stick with 5-day-per-week charts for the most part. Another potential difference I forgot to mention would be cash-forex vs. futures. The prices are very similar but do vary enough to change the forks somewhat. With your E-signal feed, you might be getting futures (???).



Here's a Daily EU with long term Andrews (black) and it's Mod. Schiff (magenta), then a more recent Andrews (orange), Mod. Schiff (purple) and Schiff (50% price) (LightSlateGray).

Price is currently holding about the Schiff ML which heretofore has not been all that significant for determining major swings. Some minor ones, yes, but other forks have been more relevant.

However, the same forks on an hourly chart have slightly different slopes and intercepts with price. Sometimes it's useful to look at PF's on both Daily, H4, H1, ... charts because there are slight (legitimate) variations.

FYI, I use the canonical definitions for the PF names. Given an Andrews with points 1, 2 and 3, a true "Schiff" is at the 50% of price between 1 & 2, at the time of 1. A true "Modified Schiff" is at 50% of price AND time between 1 & 2. Y'all have been using the name "Schiff" for what is truly a "Mod. Schiff" variation. I know, however, that the vast majority of software tools say "Schiff" for the 50/50 PF, but somewhere in the past, someone made a mistake in nomenclature and it's messed up the definitions. My basis is the original Andrews material and then followup discussions with Tim Morge and Greg Fisher. You can keep calling them whatever you want, but I thought I should explain that I'm going to be using the definitions described here in this paragraph.
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  • #648
  • Oct 29, 2009 2:26am Oct 29, 2009 2:26am
Posting interesting/pending set-ups is difficult in real time when trading intraday, but if I see anything and have the time I’ll let you know.

re 5 day week charts, yes I do get a little price bar at start of week, I take it for a fib zone indicator I use

no my esignal is spot

and yes, when I say Schiff I actually mean mod Schiff

look forward to sharing some trades

Peter
  • #649
  • Oct 29, 2009 9:46am Oct 29, 2009 9:46am
Not so much luck...pivot for 10/28 was expected. Long now, expecting yesterdays high to be taken out...confirming yesterday as a pivot.
Quoting PeterE
lucky you, . . . . see, you dont want to be
battling the technology as well
...hhmmmm Thought the transition was painless but there is a ton of stuff in the charting package to keep one busy...and Howard updates this thing once or more times a week.

Quoting PeterE
i'm feeding esignal into Fibonacci Trader. I'd prefer to be using Ensign, but the transition is unplesant, so am resisting it, . . . . . until that day when FT makes me snap
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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Listen to the whispers.... You may learn something
  • #650
  • Edited 10:25am Oct 29, 2009 9:59am | Edited 10:25am
I have not found a way to incorparate this into MT4...would be very interested in this. Perhaps there is a way and one needs to start a discussion thread on this...?
Quoting pips4life
Hi Scrutch, PeterE,

Good to see some serious discussion of PF issues and techniques.

With respect to the various start-of-day times, I haven't really found a way to use a given MT4 feed and synthesize different Daily bars. I know there are tools to synthesize non-existent timeframes, such as an M20, but to my knowledge, I don't know how to create an offline chart with a different start-of-day for a purely Daily chart. This would be very useful. Do you know of some method?
That pretty well sums it up...
Quoting pips4life
For me, I like the NY 5:00PM changeover for Daily bars, and so I use a data feed that creates those Daily bars. (e.g. IKON GM).
One thing to like about that NY 5:00PM time changeover is that there are exactly 5 24-hour daily bars. New Zealand/Australia start trading Monday AM perhaps 1-2 hours earlier but with such low liquidity, my broker ignores that data and starts up on Sunday, NY 5:00PM (chart time is Monday 00:00). And then on the other end of the week, Friday NY 4:59PM is the end of the 5th Daily bar-of-the-week (chart time is Friday 23:59).
Listen to the whispers.... You may learn something
  • #651
  • Oct 29, 2009 10:17am Oct 29, 2009 10:17am
Kent...Gonna have to disagree with this but don't want to start a "was it the chicken or the egg that came first" discussion, just my personal observance.

Jerome Schiff (Andrews student) originaly drew the formation placing the P0 anchor at the mid point of P0~P1 price at P0 time. He never really gave it a name as far as I can tell. Dr Andrews argued that to be dynamically correct the P0 anchor needed to use both time and price so he drew this formation with the P0 anchor at the midpoint of P0~P1 price and time, and coined it as the Schiff formation, out of respect for his student. In some of Dr Andrews printed material there were very few examples of the formation that Jerome had originaly drawn. On a few of the examples that are shown, they are referenced as a 1/2 Schiff. So out of respect for the original authors, I use these descriptions. Perhaps in some later Andrews material the names have been swapped or it happend much later.
Quoting pips4life
FYI, I use the canonical definitions for the PF names. Given an Andrews with points 1, 2 and 3, a true "Schiff" is at the 50% of price between 1 & 2, at the time of 1. A true "Modified Schiff" is at 50% of price AND time between 1 & 2. Y'all have been using the name "Schiff" for what is truly a "Mod. Schiff" variation. I know, however, that the vast majority of software tools say "Schiff" for the 50/50 PF, but somewhere in the past, someone made a mistake in nomenclature and it's messed up the definitions. My basis is the original Andrews...
PnS...Nice charts
Listen to the whispers.... You may learn something
  • #652
  • Edited 4:08pm Oct 29, 2009 2:58pm | Edited 4:08pm
Yes, I mean re the data feeding through properly . . . . its an expression, not to be taken literally

Quoting Scrutch
Not so much luck...pivot for 10/28 was expected.
ensign does sound good, I look forward to joining you . . . . one day

Quote
..hhmmmm Thought the transition was painless
Gents/ (Ladies?), I’m glad you are both posting here, you sound like seasoned forkers, and i look forward to trading with you, assuming you stick around
  • #653
  • Oct 29, 2009 4:22pm Oct 29, 2009 4:22pm
Still a bit confused here, if you're using eSignal for data source now and you will use eSignal data for the new charting package, what's the difference...?
Quoting PeterE
Yes, I mean re the data feeding through properly . . . . its an expression, not to be taken literally
Listen to the whispers.... You may learn something
  • #654
  • Oct 29, 2009 4:29pm Oct 29, 2009 4:29pm
my current software is Fibonacci Trader, i feed esignal into this

i intend at some point to make a change to Ensign software and feed esignal into this

FT seems to have a few bugs, sometimes it doesnt translate the data so well, as the E-U day chart demonstrates

so a change to ensign i would hope will be the difference

Quoting Scrutch
Still a bit confused here, if you're using eSignal for data source now and you will use eSignal data for the new charting package, what's the difference...?
  • #655
  • Oct 29, 2009 4:39pm Oct 29, 2009 4:39pm
Aaahhhh, IC
I really don't think you will have any problems with the feed, at least on the Ensign side. I had a bit of problems with the eSignal data but it was not any fault of the Ensign software. This was a couple of years ago and I'm sure they have all the problems sorted out by now. I switched to IB feed at that time as that's my broker and the data is free...end of my problems.
Good Luck
Quoting PeterE
my current software is Fibonacci Trader, i feed esignal into this

i intend at some point to make a change to Ensign software and feed esignal into this

FT seems to have a few bugs, sometimes it doesnt translate the data so well, as the E-U day chart demonstrates

so a change to ensign i would hope will be the difference
Listen to the whispers.... You may learn something
  • #656
  • Oct 29, 2009 5:37pm Oct 29, 2009 5:37pm
CADUSD daily
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  • #657
  • Oct 29, 2009 5:47pm Oct 29, 2009 5:47pm
Quoting Scrutch
Kent...Gonna have to disagree with this but don't want to start a "was it the chicken or the egg that came first" discussion, just my personal observance.

Jerome Schiff (Andrews student) originaly drew the formation placing the P0 anchor at the mid point of P0~P1 price at P0 time. He never really gave it a name as far as I can tell. Dr Andrews argued that to be dynamically correct the P0 anchor needed to use both time and price so he drew this formation with the P0 anchor at the midpoint of P0~P1 price and time, and coined it as the Schiff formation,...
Hey Scrutch...

You'll get no "argument" from me on definitions, but perhaps a brief attempt to persuade you. I based my definitions on some historical evidence, and also on arguably the most authoritative current resource on Medianlines which would be Tim Morge.

Here's a brief summary and some links if interested:
===================
A. One pitchfork is 50% of Price AND 50% of Time from Pt 1 to Pt 2.
B. One pitchfork is 50% of Price from Pt 1 to Pt 2, at same Time as Pt 1.

From this hard-to-read graph from the Andrews material, it would seem that the original "Schiff" was definition B (50% Price). That would make the "Modified Schiff" the A (50/50) definition:

http://www.medianline.com/ar18.html

See the following thread, including a definitive statement from Greg Fisher who now uses the name "Schiff" to describe type "B" (50% Price), and "Modified Schiff" to describe type "A" (50/50). He even stated that some of his older material had mistakenly labelled the 50/50 style as "Schiff" but he now consistently refers to that style as "Modified Schiff".

http://www.marketgeometry.com/forum/...read.php?t=443


You could also review an earlier discussion in this thread starting around post #145 (page 10). There was some back-and-forth opinions stated.
http://www.forexfactory.com/showthre...=76597&page=10


This whole topic of which label belongs to what is not likely something that can be proven either way. People have heard stories and retold them, and perhaps like the game "telephone", the message gets subtly changed each time in the retelling. For example, I heard exactly the story you said about the student named "Schiff" who came up with the "50% Price" style. But unlike your version, my version suggests that style was indeed called "Schiff". In my version, Andrews is indeed credited with suggesting a variation which would be 50% of both Price & Time, and "out of respect" for his student, chose to call that "Modified Schiff".

My story version makes sense to me, but that doesn't make it absolute truth. Yours could be truth instead. To "argue" about it would indeed be as pointless as the chicken-or-egg argument.

I'm just choosing to go with the material as given on Tim Morge's site and his associate Greg Fisher. Having said that, I've never seen any material referring to "1/2 Shiff" before, and so if indeed there is some better definitive evidence as to which is the proper labelling that disagrees with mine, well then bring it on. I'm open to reviewing it and changing my mind if persuaded.


Mostly I'm just telling the readers of this thread what definitions I'm using for my charts and why...
  • #658
  • Oct 29, 2009 6:03pm Oct 29, 2009 6:03pm
opened up EURUSD daily and it has lost the plot again,
very frustrating and time consuming rectifiying these bugs,
ensign is looking closer
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  • #659
  • Oct 29, 2009 7:08pm Oct 29, 2009 7:08pm
Whoa...this is serious. A few questions:
1) You mentioned that you spent all morning drawing you last chart with this formation. When you are using a formation other than the standard Andrews, does Fib Trader rotate it for you or do you have to roate it with your mouse.
2) Do you have MetaTrader installed? Can you open up a chart in MT and the same chart in FT to compare the high/low prices? Much easier if you have multiple monitors. This would confirm bad price data.

Quoting PeterE
opened up EURUSD daily and it has lost the plot again,
very frustrating and time consuming rectifiying these bugs,
ensign is looking closer
Gotta run for a bit but will be back in an hour or so to continue this. Is there any way you can determine if the data is corrupt or if the formation has been slightly rotated, moved or changed?
Listen to the whispers.... You may learn something
  • #660
  • Oct 29, 2009 7:44pm Oct 29, 2009 7:44pm
yes, a serious pain in the u know what

when i said i spent all morning drawing, i was actually rebuilding the symbol, data and MLs from beginning, . . . . starting anew

FT rotates for me, its auto m.schiff, so not manual mouse moving

i started from scratch again this morning, deleting symbol etc etc, so cant compare to MT4 i'm afraid

but if it does it again i'll have to move onto ensign i think, its very time wasting rebuilding from scratch

i dont think the data feed is corrupt, i think its something to do with how FT is translating the info into chart form

i'm inclined to blame FT because i've had quite a few difficulties with it, such as MLs disappearing all on their own (which is intriguing the first 2 or 3 times, . . . . . then it becoms a pattern), which makes me think its all FTs fault


Quoting Scrutch
Whoa...this is serious. A few questions:
1) You mentioned that you spent all morning drawing you last chart with this formation. When you are using a formation other than the standard Andrews, does Fib Trader rotate it for you or do you have to roate it with your mouse.
2) Do you have MetaTrader installed? Can you open up a chart in MT and the same chart in FT to compare the high/low prices? Much easier if you have multiple monitors. This would confirm bad price data.


Gotta run for a bit but will be back in an hour or so to continue...
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