(binned per thread starter's request) Behind Price-Orderflow

new big buy volume on asterics

Great battle on orderflow, who will win?
The highlighted box are trade > 100 lots.

I have to correct myself, today Market Delta doesn't work good with data.

Hey bud,

It doesn't matter too much.. You were not trading orderflow anyways, just market profile which is a whole other ballgame in itself.

You have fully wrong, market profile is another thing.

This is volume and traded contracts....

Cheers.

Lubo.

to use the same with Ninja, what is the best indicator? I already use at least 4 MT4, Ninja and a few more tools, i really can`t have one more software.

thanks in advance.,

i.e. Market Profile..It's what Market Delta is all about.

What tools does Ninja have to track order flow? TIA!

Hi Giraia,
Hi FXEZ,

In NinjaTrader u can use GomCD indicator, that is delta bars indicator u can find it here the lastet version (http://www.ninjatrader-support2.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4231&highlight=gomcd&page=22), and dValueArea indicator as volume at price indicator here. (http://www.ninjatrader-support2.com/vb/local_links.php?catid=1&sort=d&pp=15&page=3)

Lubo.

edit: The limitation is that GomCD works only in real time and doesn't plot historical values

As u like.

Cheers.

Lubo.

To much deception and mystics here......
Ill rest my case with these links;

(http://www.hartleandflow.com/5/technical-trading-articles/2007/05/cqg%e2%80%99s-order-ticker-in-75.html)

http://www.videos.traderslaboratory.com/video/635/Tape-Reading-Tutorial

And short text;

[Soultrader] 10:33 am: okay lets talk about the tape.. and feel free to ask any questions
[MrPaul] 10:33 am: k
[TinGull] 10:33 am: awesome
[Bfbusa] 10:33 am:
[Soultrader] 10:34 am: just going to tell you how I see the tape. its one of my serious edges in
trading and i recommend every trader to learn it
[Soultrader] 10:34 am: im going to be talking about the YM tape since this is the only contract I
trade
[TinGull] 10:34 am: and any book recommendations would be awesome too
[Soultrader] 10:34 am: sure
[Bfbusa] 10:34 am: I recommend we write a book
[Soultrader] 10:35 am: theres not many tape reading books available.. but make sure to read
everything u can on Jesse Livermore, Humphrey Neill, and Wyckoff
[Soultrader] 10:35 am: I want to write one one day
[Soultrader] 10:35 am: also that Russian author... Vladmir i think
[Soultrader] 10:36 am: the older books talk alot about the ticker tape
[Soultrader] 10:36 am: which is different from the time of sales.. but the concept is the same
[Soultrader] 10:36 am: all they ever did was look for support and resistance and block prints on
tape
[Soultrader] 10:37 am: okay ... the YM tape is alot easier to trade than the ES
[Soultrader] 10:37 am: 10+ lots I consider big guys.. and the tape moves alot slower in my
opinion
[Soultrader] 10:37 am: so I seperate the tape into two columsn

[jperl] 10:38 am: test
[Soultrader] 10:38 am: the left side represents all transactions.. while the right column
represents 10+ lots or more
[Soultrader] 10:39 am: im assuming all of you guys know how to setup this up on your platform?
[Soultrader] 10:39 am: all you need is price and size
[MrPaul] 10:39 am: yea
[jperl] 10:40 am: no
[Soultrader] 10:40 am: ok lets talk about litte guys vs big guys
[Soultrader] 10:40 am: Jerry.. what platform do you use?
[jperl] 10:40 am: platform?
[Soultrader] 10:40 am: trading software
[jperl] 10:41 am: IB
[Soultrader] 10:41 am: someone told me IB doesnt have a time of sales?
[MrPaul] 10:41 am: they do
[jperl] 10:41 am: it does
[MrPaul] 10:41 am: I thought initially they didn't
[jperl] 10:42 am: or at least my front end does
[MrPaul] 10:42 am: you have to use a third party software to access it
[MrPaul] 10:42 am: they don't offer it in TWS in real time
[Soultrader] 10:42 am: okay... well im not familiar with IB but in TS we can tweak the time of
sales window to show price and size only
[Soultrader] 10:43 am: i seee
[Soultrader] 10:43 am: im not sure I can help you with IB... i never used it
[jperl] 10:43 am: ok
[Soultrader] 10:43 am: okay back to little guys vs big guys
[Soultrader] 10:44 am: the real muscle is the right hand column known as the big guys
[Bfbusa] 10:44 am: ss ym 13
[Soultrader] 10:44 am: however, you can not disrespect the little guys
[Soultrader] 10:44 am: they will create momentum as they are usually late getting into the move
[Soultrader] 10:44 am: for example
[Soultrader] 10:45 am: lets say price ddeclines towards the previous days low.... first you will
see big lots or big guys stepping in
[Soultrader] 10:45 am: then you will see smaller lots like 10, 15 lots
[Soultrader] 10:45 am: then followed by single digit lots.. or little guys
[Soultrader] 10:46 am: this can fuel momentum and even a short covering can turn into a decent
rally
[Soultrader] 10:46 am: the big boys are prepared in advance to buy at certain levels so many
times u might see price drop below S1 a couple ticks and then reverse
[Soultrader] 10:46 am: they may be buying on the way down
[Soultrader] 10:47 am: okay.. with this in mind.. lets talk about timing entries
[Soultrader] 10:48 am: if youre good you can buy with the big boys...... but i try to enter before
the 10-15 lots come in and before the little guys start buying
[Soultrader] 10:48 am: so try to be the second group in
[Soultrader] 10:48 am: by the time the fourth group or little guys start buying.. im already
dumping half
[Soultrader] 10:49 am: sometimes you will see all red... but with no decline
[Soultrader] 10:49 am: this indicates strong support
[Soultrader] 10:49 am: someone is buying on the way down..
[Soultrader] 10:50 am: did i lose anyone?
[TinGull] 10:50 am: nope
[Soultrader] 10:50 am: okay good
[Soultrader] 10:50 am: lets talk about the flow of the tape
[Soultrader] 10:50 am: this is very important
[MrPaul] 10:50 am: k
[Soultrader] 10:51 am: when there is good flow.... there is good price movement.. when tape is
caught in traffic, you want to step aside
[Soultrader] 10:52 am: the flow confirms your position.. if you are long, you want to see tape
running fast and smooth
[Soultrader] 10:52 am: once it starts to stall, you want to be exiting portions
[Soultrader] 10:52 am: vice versa for shorts
[Soultrader] 10:53 am: its a very interesting thing to watch..... u can clearly see the tape hault
[TinGull] 10:53 am: like right now
[MrPaul] 10:53 am: yeah good point
[Soultrader] 10:53 am: yea no point trading right now
[MrPaul] 10:53 am: thats great
[Soultrader] 10:54 am: price will usually hault... spend a little time at a pivot and then you should
seee the right column turning green
[Soultrader] 10:54 am: this can indicate a reversal
[Soultrader] 10:57 am: okay lets talk about price rejection vs price acceptance
[Soultrader] 10:57 am: with the YM... if youre not careful itll fake alot of new traders out every
single time
[Soultrader] 10:58 am: because it likes to take out the lows or pivots by a few ticks and then
reverse
[Soultrader] 10:58 am: this is where I like to watch for price acceptance or price rejection
[Soultrader] 10:58 am: lets say the YM breaks above VAL.... make sure to check if there are big
lots coming in a few ticks above it
[Soultrader] 10:59 am: if you see 10+ lots on the buy side.... there is price acceptance
[Soultrader] 10:59 am: but if you only see the little guys buying and then all of a sudden 10+ lots
on the right column in red all over the place... this is a warning signal
[MrPaul] 11:00 am: ahh
[Soultrader] 11:00 am: takes a little practice but youll be able to judge supply vs demand from
tape
[Soultrader] 11:00 am: u can use this same concept to play breakouts
[Soultrader] 11:00 am: lets say price is hugging the VAL or VAH or any pivot
[Bfbusa] 11:00 am: out -10
[Soultrader] 11:01 am: and there are no sellers on tape but plenty of 10+ lots with no price
advancement
[Soultrader] 11:01 am: you can usually anticipate a breakout
[Soultrader] 11:01 am: its a powerful setup
[Soultrader] 11:02 am: watch price trade at the resistance... as if it was hugging it... watch the
tape and you should see more demand
[Soultrader] 11:02 am: you can usually get in before the breakout and feed it to the breakout
traders
[Bfbusa] 11:02 am: Jemes please save tranascript
[Soultrader] 11:02 am: yes im saving it no worries
[Soultrader] 11:03 am: okay lets talk about false moves
[Soultrader] 11:03 am: this is a hard one.. you need good tape reading skills and memory for this
[Soultrader] 11:04 am: lets say price advanced 20 points
[Soultrader] 11:04 am: but during the entire 20 point move... you hardly see any big lots coming
in
[Soultrader] 11:05 am: one sec... watch tape now.... its running faster
[Soultrader] 11:05 am: its not the greatest looking tape but improvement from before
[Soultrader] 11:06 am: anyways.... getting back to my point, if you seea lot of single lot traders
moving price, expect a reversal
[Soultrader] 11:06 am: dont jump in with longs
[Soultrader] 11:06 am: time your entry for a short setup
[Trading Room]: Gordon G. has entered at 11:06 am
[Gordon G.] 11:07 am: gm
[MrPaul] 11:07 am: gm
[Soultrader] 11:07 am: gm
[Soultrader] 11:07 am: i guess we all missed that r2 piovot trade
[Soultrader] 11:07 am: nice 30pts right there
[MrPaul] 11:08 am: it's continuing the trend from yesterday
[MrPaul] 11:08 am: late yesterday
[Soultrader] 11:08 am: anyone have any questions on tape?
[MrPaul] 11:08 am: do you ever see large lots comming through and then a swift reversal?
[MrPaul] 11:08 am: as in equally larger lots absorbing the move
[Soultrader] 11:09 am: you mean large lots on the ask and then a reversal?
[MrPaul] 11:09 am: or is that rare?
[MrPaul] 11:09 am: yeah
[Soultrader] 11:09 am: its rare
[MrPaul] 11:09 am: ok
[Soultrader] 11:09 am: one thing though
[Soultrader] 11:09 am: now that you mentioned it
[Soultrader] 11:09 am: sometimes you can spot out a 100lot trader
[Soultrader] 11:09 am: or even a 80 lot trader
[Soultrader] 11:10 am: what happens is i like to follow this guy... kina like follow the leader
[Bfbusa] 11:10 am: .
[Soultrader] 11:10 am: but then..... u see 80 lots being sold 2 ticks later
[Soultrader] 11:10 am: what does this tell you? this trader thinks hes wrong
[MrPaul] 11:10 am: ahhh
[Soultrader] 11:10 am: i have seen many reversals take place just from this information
[Soultrader] 11:11 am: its pretty amazing
[Soultrader] 11:11 am: just very hard to catch unless you are starting at tape
[Soultrader] 11:11 am: im pretty glued to the tape for the first 60 minutes
[Soultrader] 11:12 am: oh i forgot.. lets talk about bracketing tape
[Soultrader] 11:12 am: now this is for scalpers
[Soultrader] 11:13 am: some of you are familiar with how i start bracketing tape looking for short
term resistance and short term support
[Soultrader] 11:13 am: test
[TinGull] 11:13 am: .
[TinGull] 11:14 am: 115 lot
[TinGull] 11:14 am: holy cow
[Soultrader] 11:14 am: lets say price trades at $5, $5, $6, $6, $7,$6, $5, $7, $5.......... the short
term bracket is $5-$7
[Soultrader] 11:14 am: i have the 115 lot in white
[Soultrader] 11:14 am: meaining?
[TinGull] 11:14 am: no idea
[TinGull] 11:14 am: mine was in blue
[TinGull] 11:14 am: no idea what the blue means either
[Soultrader] 11:15 am: blue as in ask?
[Soultrader] 11:15 am: hahaha
[TinGull] 11:15 am: I have them come through as red and green
[Soultrader] 11:15 am: TS is playing games with us now
[TinGull] 11:15 am: and every sooften blues come through
[TinGull] 11:16 am: what does the white mean?
[Soultrader] 11:16 am: anyways.. i covered pretty much the basics of tape
[Soultrader] 11:16 am: white means in between, which makes no sense for YM
[MrPaul] 11:16 am: yeah what does white mean i see it as inside 768.90 etc
[TinGull] 11:16 am: thats what I think the blue means too...which always confused me with it
being inside of a dollar spread
[Soultrader] 11:17 am: wrines was asking the same question.. no one had an aswer
[Soultrader] 11:17 am: well perhaps that 115 lot was sold at the bid
[Soultrader] 11:18 am: cause it was at 12258 and now we are at 47
[Soultrader] 11:18 am: and i dont think a 115 lot is stupid enough to buy smack at the weekly
pivot resistance
[Soultrader] 11:18 am: who knows though
[Trading Room]: matdog has entered at 11:19 am
[TinGull] 11:19 am: nice to know
[Soultrader] 11:20 am: anybody have any questions?
[Soultrader] 11:20 am: i think im out of things to say
[matdog] 11:20 am: i am late sorry
[Soultrader] 11:20 am: i might get inspired
[Soultrader] 11:20 am: gm matdog
[MrPaul] 11:20 am: i'm chewin on the info
[Soultrader] 11:20 am: no worries i saved a script
[Soultrader] 11:20 am: ill post it in the forums
[Soultrader] 11:21 am: and you can ask questions if u want anytime
[TinGull] 11:21 am: and as soon as my new computer comes that can handle the data inflow
nicely, I'll be chewin on it more to
[Soultrader] 11:21 am: in intraday trading.. tape reading is an serious edge
[matdog] 11:21 am: nice. thanks Soul.
[Soultrader] 11:21 am: because not many traders are tape readers
[Soultrader] 11:21 am: its the purest form of information
[MrPaul] 11:22 am: certainly an edge
[MrPaul] 11:22 am: thanks Soul
[MrPaul] 11:22 am: im sure i'll have more questions
[jperl] 11:22 am: any good reads on this subject
[Soultrader] 11:22 am: in poker.. you can spot a mans tell
[matdog] 11:22 am: does tape rading works all the time?
[Soultrader] 11:22 am: in trading.. you can judge supply vs demand just from tape
[Soultrader] 11:23 am: serious serious edge
[Soultrader] 11:23 am: tape reading will work everytime and will never cease to work
[Soultrader] 11:23 am: every other tool may stop working sometime
[Soultrader] 11:23 am: but tape you can always rely on
[Soultrader] 11:24 am: jperl..i highyl recommend reading Humprhey Neil's "Tape reading and
market tactics"
[Soultrader] 11:25 am: and also the russian author.. let me look it up
[jperl] 11:25 am: ok thanks
[Trading Room]: Gordon G. has left at 11:25 am
[Soultrader] 11:26 am: its called techniques of tape reading by vadym graifer
[Soultrader] 11:26 am: actually not sure if hes russian
[MrPaul] 11:26 am: cool, everybody go click my ads so i can buy some tape reading books

[Soultrader] 11:26 am: hehe
[MrPaul] 11:26 am: lol
[jperl] 11:26 am: I have the Graifer book....I don't see much discussion of tape reading in that one
[Soultrader] 11:27 am: the only real way to learn tape though is to stare at it
[matdog] 11:27 am: Soul, how do you think Chris Schumacher's CD, Techniques of Tape
Reading
[Soultrader] 11:27 am: yea... its hard to find good tape reading books
[Soultrader] 11:27 am: maybe ill write one
[Soultrader] 11:27 am:
[Soultrader] 11:27 am: im not familiar with it matdog
[MrPaul] 11:27 am: i
[MrPaul] 11:27 am: i'll buy one*
[Soultrader] 11:27 am: hehe
[Soultrader] 11:28 am: tape reading is a very hard topic to talk about.. its alot easier to show
visually
[TinGull] 11:28 am: more videos!
[matdog] 11:28 am: I agree.
[Soultrader] 11:29 am: i think Humphrey Neill's book was the originating book that got me
hooked on tape reading
[Soultrader] 11:29 am: haha yea ill make more tape reading videos... its just that my TS keeps
freezing when recording live lately
[Soultrader] 11:29 am: might need more ram
[MrPaul] 11:29 am: do you find the placement of the tape right next to the chart better than
having somewhere else?
[MrPaul] 11:29 am: just do to the ease of darting over from candle to price?
[Soultrader] 11:29 am: yea i like it close to my chart
[MrPaul] 11:30 am: okay
[Soultrader] 11:30 am: yea.. i rely on tape and TICK heavily so I keep them on the same monitor
[Soultrader] 11:30 am: i dont have to move my head
[Soultrader] 11:31 am: i used to just stare at tape and it made no sense
[Soultrader] 11:31 am: after 1 month it still made no sense
[Soultrader] 11:31 am: 2 months... no sense
[Soultrader] 11:31 am: by my 3rd and 4th month.. i was seeing clues
[Soultrader] 11:32 am: test
[Soultrader] 11:32 am: it took me 6-10 months to really understand tape to use it as aan edge
[Soultrader] 11:32 am: im still learning everyday


Regards

Great Post, and Great Platform CQG, unfortunately is very expensive.

Price Order Flow shouldn't be a mystery.

developing the pattern recognition skills to utilize POF with PA and VSA takes long hours of study to properly master, so it isn't a magic bullet either.

The information below provides a good foundation.

I originally tried pasting this guide to reading price order flow in this post but it was too small to read so I removed it. Here's the link instead. http://www.lind-waldock.com/education/ewire/archives/703/feature02.shtml



.

... appears to be here: http://www.lind-waldock.com/education/ewire/archives/703/feature02.shtml

However, this doesn't really relate to forex does it? The only problem is getting access to FOREX orderflow, not necessarily how to read it.

You need to have it in your hand before you can use it.

Bid/Ask Size is also important.

You don't need to sign up for an expensive service to get this information, but you do need a feed that is linked to the larger market orders, such as an ECN or esignal, which are both within reason.

(on MBT bid ask size information is not contained in the Market Depth panel, it is contained in the Watch List panel and can help to identify more precise entries.)

For some more background on the basics of how this works I recommend reading these 2 posts by Dark Star.

http://www.forexfactory.com/showpost.php?p=90124&postcount=4
http://www.forexfactory.com/showpost.php?p=90118&postcount=3

I also recommend reading Harris' Market Microstructures for Practitioners
(the snippet pasted into this post is from the book)

http://books.google.com/books?id=Rd9hDRR1Yx4C&pg=PA287&lpg=PA287&dq=dealer+tactics+trading+market+microstructures&source=bl&ots=XaxIbDMVTL&sig=S60N3w3nwUkU-f0mzl3kJQOglvM&hl=en&ei=Bk_HSvmROtiPkQWq8YDcBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#v=onepage&q=&f=false

I know this book has been mentioned on this thread previously. It is very thorough, and will give you all the information you need to understand the mechanics of price order flow, so I thought was worth a bump.

I would also recommend reading Wykoff's Day Trader's Bible, which has some excellent practical techniques for tape reading.

I was posting in 2 parts, so answered your question in my second post. You can get the orderflow information from an ECN broker.

skfx uses MBT. It is listed in his profile as his preferred broker along with Onanda.
You need a live account, not demo.

Yes, this relates to Forex.

Fudomyo,

My post was a link to the source of your information as the jpg you posted is too pixilated (is that even a word?) to read.

Having missed the part about your posts being in 2 posts, I presumed you were only posting that article with no sources of where to get orderflow information, as many others have done so before you in this thread.

My apologies for jumping to conclusions.

Having purchased an esignal feed some time back for testing purposes, I can't see anything in it that relates to orderflow. I presume that as I purchased the most basic package which seems to be an aggregate of broker data, perhaps you would be so kind as to direct me (us) to which package of esignal we should look for.

no need to apologize.

With esignal, the basic charting package doesn't include GTIS Forex or Forex Depth. these are add-ons.

I'm currently using MBT (which is quite good), but have been talking with esignal about which add ons I need. I will share my information with you when I have more, but I have heard their data feed is quite good from a couple of traders I trust, so plan on signing up for these this month.

The GTIS volume tick data is also supposed to be very reliable as well.


.

I thought as much as. Will have to fork out some more funds for these then.


Yes, please do share. I already have their basic charting package which is much 'cleaner' than my broker (Alpari UK) whom I only use to place trades. Seems a little easier to draw SR better with esignal, probably because of the cleaner data.

Thanks for your input this far...

Darkstar about MBT. The Esignal tape does not contain traded size.