Fractal Geometry....Trading?

Hi everybody.

I hope you won't mind me giving some links to find info on Drummond Geometry.
Also i hope i am not doing something not accepted.

There is a site called "4shared.com".
There you can find many pdf's on forex.

Search for "Breakthroughs in Technical Analysis - New Thinking from the World's Top Minds by David Keller" or just "Breakthroughs in Technical Analysis".

The first chapter of this book is a part of DG.

You can also search using the words "Drummond Geometry" but unfortunately
the results are not ,that something more we want.
However the site has a .rar file with lots of info ,even though you can't
download it that way.

Try this. Google the words "Drummond Geometry 4shared".

You will find a link to the 4shared site that has that .rar file of 65 mb.


And now the good stuff. You can use torrent downloading using p2p networks and programs. Info on sites like "rapidshare".
There you will find the full lessons of DG.

I personally did not download it ,because the sites require membership.
Not much money ,but i do not want to give my info. Allthough you may use p2p programs and maybe find what you seek.

P2P programs work like this. You permit others to download from a specified folder on your hard drive ,whatever you want to share and so you can also download what you seek ,from others.

What i do not know is how the sites "work".

Hope i helped.

thank you mrjtdude and tony for your replies.

now this system might be one of several that leads to consistent profits by consistent traders.

the thread starter might have made good money in his trading days, but he acknowledges that he is not sure if it would be profitabe in forex or any trading vehicle for that matter today.

my commonsense tells me: now before I fill my head will all kinds of complicated matter, I would want the thread starter to make a little backtest and assure himself that his material is still relevant today.

wouldn`t you?

no offence intended to tony

Yonnie: I hope you do not mind me sharing my thoughts on your post.

I understand and agree with your response ,as your personal opinion of handling your attention. You decide. What you say is very reasonable.

As for me ,i would really like to accumulate the amount of knowledge ,Tony wishes to offer ,anyway - anyhow.

Testing can be done in time ,adjusting and adapting to Forex.

I am all ears. Eyes. A freak of senses.
Better not see me. Bliah.

Hi Tony,

Please keep helping us, and much thanks again.
Question please Sir,

You say: "In a broad sense...in the area of the top curve (resistance or bull territory) is your logarithm. While in the bottom curve (suppot or bear
territory) is your expondential. But as the market goes from one to the
other, no matter what 'time period' you have to have a straight line or
inflection point. The Dot is the best indicator of them all.'

So, from what I'm starting to understand, one of the more important aspects of deciphering and deciding where to enter or exit a trade, is the relation between where the DOT was and where it is NOW, and how fast or slow it got to it's current location?
Of course where it will then go is of major importance in determing one's risk/reward ratio. The exit point is more important than the entry point. Does your trading method pre determine one's exit point and what one's R/R is?

And as they say in the restaurant ( trading) business; the key to success is location, location, and location.

And

"I've been working over 25 years
on it...and I still have to shake my head,'

So please continue your patient tutoring, no matter what others might pop up and say.

Cheers,

LR

[quote=yonnie;2958101]thank you mrjtdude and tony for your replies.

now this system might be one of several that leads to consistent profits by consistent traders.

the thread starter might have made good money in his trading days, but he acknowledges that he is not sure if it would be profitabe in forex or any trading vehicle for that matter today.

my commonsense tells me: now before I fill my head will all kinds of complicated matter, I would want the thread starter to make a little backtest and assure himself that his material is still relevant today.

wouldn`t you?



Yonnie: I don't know how many times I've given the cheapest
advice you'll ever get. This is what I've given on this forum some
time back and quite a few others. I've been flamed then...and I'll
be flamed here. "The cheapest advice you'll ever get is to stay
out of trading the markets. Why?...because you probably don't
belong in it". I had an account with RefcoFX. And you know
what happened to them? THEY WENT BELLY UP. I was making
money while I had an account with them...and when they went
bankrupt....ALL MY ACCOUNT WENT WITH IT. When I was trading
the commodities years ago...I lost thousands before I finally made
it. Was it worth it? NO. Anything I say here on this forum is only
an opinion. You have an inflated expectation. Anything you get
here on this forum is FREE. I'm gonna tell you something. I've been
on many forums...and some of the guys on those forums give some
brilliant advice. These guys were REAL TRADERS...who were giving
their time. A lot of them left the forums because of guys like you
who are looking for FREE advice. Why don't you take the advice
I give you...AND YOU BACK TEST IT. Why in the "hell" should I
back test something for you. I made mine....NOW YOU MAKE YOURS.
Odds are you will be seeking some other hobby. What I was trying to
explain outside the validity of the P&L is the risk is greater today than
it was years ago. You're looking for something for nothing...a free
ride to the bank. You ain't gonna get it. In the last election....the
millions who voted were looking for a FREE RIDE also. They're in for
a rude shock....
ciao,
Tony

thanks tony for your reply and I`ll leave you to it.

good luck everybody

Mgh: I will assume that you have the MetaTrader chart and you have
the P&L envelope, Dot and even the pivot point line. I assume that you
know what is an active and a reactive trade movement. So...what I will
try to help you with is... what the P&L dogma rules are. You are always
gaging the "close" and where it's location is in relation to the DOT. If
the market closes above the Dot...it is in an up market. If the market
closes below the Dot...it's in a down market.

quote:___________________________________________________________________________
So, from what I'm starting to understand, one of the more important aspects of deciphering and deciding where to enter or exit a trade, is the relation between where the DOT was and where it is NOW, and how fast or slow it got to it's current location?
__________________________________________________________________________________
Not quite. There are 5 kinds of trades...and I had mentioned them in
my other post. 1) trend 2) trend ending 3) congestion entrance
4) congestion action 5) congestion exit. You'll have a an indication
in the distance between the Dots by it veering from it's straight line.
You should be able to figure out this as to how powerful the Dot is.
If it veers up it means a number of things. If it veers down it means
something else. Turn to the MetaTrader chart...check back at the
date 08.03 to 08.05. You have a straight line and then it veered down.
On that same day, the 'high' became a Fractal (Dotted Line). On 08.06
the market closed below the Dot...and this is where the P&L is the
master of all trading guides. It's here where no one else comes anywhere
near what Charles Drummond came up with. You have at the very top...
on 08.05 a Fractal (Dotted Line)...then on 09.06 the market closed
under the Dot. The 'high' of that 'day (09.06) becomes the HALO...
and at the 'low' of that 'day(09.06) becomes the BLOCK. The Halo at
1.44316 and the Block at 1.43293. The Dotted Line (Fractal) at 1.44437
and the Halo at 1.44316 become your Resistance points....and the
Block at 1.43293 is your Support. The next day...the market made a
huge dip...way past the Block. It was a trend down (after 3 days)
below the Block. The trend ended on 08.12 at 1.40857...and on that
day a lower Fractal (Lower Dotted Line) as well the close went above
the Dot. A 5-9 (low of 08.11 to high of 08.12 stopped the high of
next day which was to become Dotted Line (Fractal). But now the
market is up....so the 'close' over the Dot had the HALO and the
BLOCK just the opposite of that on 'day' 09.06. If you didn't use my
Cross...and you had gone long...you would have had to take a loss.
Each time a 'close' is past the block....the first time: be careful. Most
of the time with EurUSD...the market will flip into a 'congestion'.
But this time it didn't do it...instead is became a 1-2-3 Swing type.
The EURO/USD is indeed a real tough market to trade. If you were
trading this market and you took the last Fractal as your P3 point....
then this is how you judge your entry, target point and your stop
point. From P1 which is at the High of 08.05 (Fractal high) to P2
08.12 (Fractal low) (down trend) has a difference of 362 pips. That
is 1.44473-1.40857=361.6, Your P3 is: 1.43267 on 08.13. Now you
subtract 3616 from 1.43267....cuz it's downtrend the formula is
P3-(P1-P2)=TP.....thus 1.43267-3616= 1.39651. Your TP is 1.39651.
Now for our entry point (EP). You take 1/4 of the distance from P1
to P2. Since the distance was 361.6 pips, you divide 361.6 by 4
which equals 90.4.......and you subtract this from P3. Thus: 1.43267
minus 904 is: 1.42363. So your entry is 1.42363. Your Stop Point is
one or two pips above P3 ......1.43267 + 1 or 2 pips...1.43468. So
here it is: TP=1.39651
EP=1.42363
SP=1.43468 or 1.43469
The critical price is 1/2 the distance betwee EP to TP.
CP=1.41007 The market is in control until you get
1.41007. When you get to 1.41007
move your Stop to EP at 1.42363.
Once the market gets to P2 or 1.40857 minus 1 which will be
your window at 1.40856, you move your stop to your Trailing
Stop. You take 1/4 of the distance from P2 to p3. In this instant
it would be P3-P2/4= 1.43267-1.40857/4 = .0241 So you would
add .024 to your TP (we're in down trend) to the lowest point
the market had gone . If the lowest point was above your TP
then you would take that Stop Out...no matter you have a profit.
We want a 3 to 1 win/loss. Your Entry to Target divided by Entry
to SP.........2712/1105= 2.4543. That's bit a gamble. I wouldn't
take it.You do all this before you take a trade. If it was a bit
closer to 3 to 1....or the fractions were closer like 2.7 or 2.8.
But a 2.5 is not worth it. Better to sit on your hands on this one.
Anyway that's it.....
ciao,
tonyj

Tony,

WOW, thank you soooo much for your clear dialectic explanations of your P&L parameters, method, system...

Lights are flashing and bells are going off in my head, finally
It's like when I grasped my first understanding of geometry, ages and ages ago.
Still, many questions swirl around my mind, words or acronyms(?) like HALO, BLOCK ( stick being the Halo as the head when the 'close' crosses the DOT, the Block being the 'tail'. Put on the ( Top Hat) and you can go anywhere.... and lines 5-2 and 5-9... The '5-9 (low of 08.11 to high of 08.12 stopped the high of
next day which was to become Dotted Line (Fractal).

'I drew a trend line from low of 08.11 to high of 08.12 and couldn't get it to touch the high of 08.13, and don't know what a line 5-9 is, and how it stopped that movement high of 08.13 at 1.4326? But if I draw a trend line from low of 08.10 to high of 08.12, that works, but still don't know what a line 5-9 is.

Also, watching a tick chart is like entering another dimension for me. Running the time scales is important for confirmation if I understand correctly, of course that makes sense for S/R.

Yes I have MetaTrader, and know active and reactive trade movements. I know a little about trading, earned my Series 3 in Chicago in 1994 traded for many years before that. Got so good at losing money I should have a title. And my wife deserves anything and everything for still believing in me. INCREDIBLE...

You spent alot of time and put in alot of work to so gracefully answer my questions

I'll digest your explanations, and apply it to some charts over the next few days to make sure I'm grasping your P&L explanations.
I have printed out all of your post, 18 pages so far, lots and lots of info, maybe life changing info at that......

No doubt I'll have some more questions.

Tony, you R DA MAN

Cheers and thank you again!

LR

PLEASE TAKE NOTE:

Be very careful with what I write in this forum. It is impossible for
me to explain the 'whole picture'. I do not have the time nor the
space as short as it is in this "post". The market is more complicated
than any of the past gurus ever mentioned. THEY'VE BRAIN WASHED
ALL OF US. It's taken more fifty years to find this out...and unless
you've the capital to suffice an adequate Money Management you
are a Tom Thumb midget being thrown to the chickens. I've in the
past have mentioned this one advice....a very CHEAP ADVICE: DO
NOT TRADE IN ANY MARKET. WHY? BECAUSE YOU PROBABLY DON'T
BELONG IN IT. And that will be the cheapest advice you'll ever get.
Now that you know the 'cheapest' advice, the odds are that you may
still want to challenge that advice. SO BE IT.....the odds are that you
will end up with cauliflower ears and being a punch-drunk. Again...
you now know that and can at least avoid the ears and the punchy
part. Again...be CAREFUL what I write. It can go both ways.
I can never offer nor is there a HOLY GRAIL. But I did offer you the
HOLY CROSS. The Cross and the Dot (P&L Methodology) is a benedicite
that is about the close you'll ever get to the Holy Grail. And it's free.
Again....be careful with this free advice. You won't get the whole story.

The Cross can only appear on the DAILY. You should be able to get
the 'whole story' by looking at it. The Dot and along with it the envelope
is another part of the whole story. It's up to you now to figure it out.
It does mean that you have to use your mind and know how to read the
chart. Again....KNOW HOW TO READ THE CHART. You learn how to read
the chart by knowing how to read the 'tick' or "pip". I'll always refer to
it as the "TICK". The tick is the only truth. Now 'damn it'...get this down.
The "TICK" is going to appear in all the time frames. Don't listen to all
the crap being put out by the 'so call' experts....that it is nothing but
NOISE. Yes...it's going to be difficult to get all this under your belt.
But once you understand all the various tricks and this true naif of the
market, the rest is a piece of cake. No matter in what "time frame"
of the market...the "tick" is there. If you look at the 'yearly'...the
tick is there. Most of the charts offered by your forex broker has
at least the monthly. So you have the 'tick' to the monthly. Try to
think of the 'time factor' as 'STEPS' going up. Going up from the 'tick'
to the 'monthly'. Now the 'tick' is in all the 'time frames' and even if
you are looking at your Daily...look at where the 'close' is at this
instant. That 'instant' is the TICK....this is the only 'truth'. Now
use your head...for Christ Sakes....look at where that 'tick' is in
relation to the RANGE. Then 'from there' look back at the past ranges.
But it's in the 'tick' range where it all begins. Which way is the 'tick'
running? Is it running from the lower left going up to the upper right?
Is it going fairly straight or is it bouncing around like some punch-drunk?
Or is it going from the upper left (tick frame) down to the lower right?
Now compare the 'tick' with the next step up...the 'minute'. Keep going
up the ladder...it will change. I'm going to stop here. If I keep on going I'll end up with an Fourier Series...because the gurus probably didn't know of such a thing.
ciao,
tonyj

Mgh: In giving you an idea of how to get your Tp (target price), Ep
(entry price) SP (stop price) etc in post to you. I suggested not
taking the trade because I didn't like the 3:1 win/loss . So I would
have sat on my hands. But had the trade been taken.....there would
have been a 194 pip win. The market right now is going on up...at the
moment. Now you do this one....where the last high (P1) was 1.43267
9.08.13, where it was also a Fractal (Dotted Line). The last low was
at 1.40446 (P2) 9.08.17 also a Fractal low (lower Dotted line), You have
to wait for the P3 to develope..once it shows, your EP (entry price) is
1/4 the distance from P1 to P2. P1-P2/4 = EP. Right now at this moment
the market has hit the Dot. Get your Cross in ....
Will see what you do now.....and following up with the rest. good luck.
caio,
Tony

Tony,

I think I'm on the right track now, thank you Sir.

P1 is 1.43267 P2 is 1.40446, so 1.43267 - 1.40446 = 282.1
Waiting for P3, then will add if we're in an up trend or subtract if we're in a down trend, so P3-(P1-P2)=TP
Then for EP 1/4 of the distance from P1 to P2, ( 70.5) which will be subtracted from P3 if we're in a down trend.
Is my cross in the correct place now? And, do I move my cross every day after the new open?

I understand what the 'TICK' is now and what kind of punches it throws. I should be ready to enter the ring within a week or so, if I don't get sucker punched first.

Tony, this is getting exciting, and your kind and generous help is VERY much appreciated Sir.

Cheers,

LR

Mgh: Yes...you're on track. And yes....you shift over on the Cross each
day. It's your "View From the Bridge". You have a view of what is going
on now...and you know what happened in the past. Left of the vertical
cross is the past...and to the right is what is going on today. Let your
mind look at both sides...and let it be told all the stories. I shouldn't
have to suggest not a thing. The Cross is a stool pigeon....it is your
mouth piece. You keepa you hands in you pocket...you knowa me...eh?
ciao,
tonyj

Gotta keepa my hands otta my pockets, r day goona shoot mea for sure
5-2,5-9 that ain't a no baloney meatloaf sandwhich thada ? But I ain't gonna be pulling no trigger Mister, r I be suckered punched for sure, thada one.

Cheers,

LR

Just wanted to say thank you for all your help - I will be studying this all weekend to try & get a "handle" on it.

Thank you Tony,
Now the market is here, and I'm waiting for P3. I know this sounds stupid, but, after 3 closes beyond the Dot, well, that makes a trend, so follow the Dotted Line? But doesn't 3 closes beyond the Dot possibly signal a reversal? So my stupid question is, how to determine if one fades or jumps on board?
There's ocean spray on by Bridge window, so the view isn't clear. Have not grasped the 5 kinds of trading for this yet: 1 trend run, 2 congestion, 3 trend reversal, 4 congestion entrance, 5 congestion exit. And, without knowing what 5-2 and 5-9 is, the fog remains.

Thanks again,

Cheers,

LR

Tony,


Just as soon as there is a dotted (line) for the last high, I'll use the formula you so kind provided to calculate the EP, SP, TP, CP and R/R ratio.

Thank you Sir,

LR

Hi Tony,

If 09.08.21 turns out to be P3:
Then:
P1= 1.4326
P2= 1.4044
P3= 1.4376

TP= 1.4094
EP= 1.4306
SP= 1.4379 (I added an extra 2 points for the spread)
CP= 1.4200
R/R= 2.85

The trading platform I use doesn't have 5 decimal points.

Thank you Sir for your help.

Cheers,

LR

Hi Tony
Thanks for your great thread and your explanations about Drummond geometry.
I think that I understand the main concepts, please continue our education first of all about Drummond lines (5-1, 5-2, 5-9, 6-2, 6-6, ..) and your development ( version ) of Drummond geometry.

arado

Hi Mgh

I think Tony will give us more about the P1, P2, P3 pattern(123), but as I see P1 is allways the last High or Low (Higher High, Lower Low) of a trend, and therefore 1.4044 is the last low of the retracement of EURUSD and might be a P1 of the continuation of the main long trend( and 1.4376 may develope the P2).

Arado

Hi Arado,

Thanks for the heads up on the 1,2,3 and how 1.4376 might be the new P2. I'm up in the Bridge waiting for the fog to clear.

Cheers,

LR