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NFA - "No more Limit or Stop Loss orders"

  • #321
  • Jul 24, 2009 9:04am Jul 24, 2009 9:04am
Quoting ddaytrader
No, because that is FXCM policy, not NFA policy. NFA regulation simply says that offestting transactiona must liquidate open positions in FIFO order.

The problem here is not the NFA. The problem here is FXCM. And I will say it again, I am very happy trading with FXCM. But I do not believe that they needed to change anything other than to liquidate FIFO. Everything else should remain the same.
To clarify, stops and limits are still available with FXCM through OCO stop and limit entries. They just can't be attached to individual tickets since it would not be FIFO compliant.
  • #322
  • Jul 24, 2009 9:18am Jul 24, 2009 9:18am
Quoting ddaytrader
If I am correct, then your 1000 pip profit closes first. If you want to trade both long term and short term, you will need two different accounts.

Wow... if that the case, I need to go to Australia then, what the point of staying if you can't stay long enough in the profitable trade, without a profitable trailing stop loss. What do you say Mr. FXCM Representative?.

What FXCM/NFA was thinking anyway? Are you guys out of your mind to create such a rules.

No wonder the world of financial is in a lot of trouble now, but the world of technology keep progressing.
  • #323
  • Edited 9:37am Jul 24, 2009 9:25am | Edited 9:37am
Quoting Jason Rogers
To clarify, stops and limits are still available with FXCM through OCO stop and limit entries. They just can't be attached to individual tickets since it would not be FIFO compliant.
Jason,

Please explain to me why I can enter an order with either of my two futures brokers to go long or short a 6E (EURUSD) futures contract with an automatic stop loss and take profit limit order attached in an account that is also FIFO, but to do the same with FXCM is not FIFO compliant.

You and your firm are stretching credulity to the breaking point with your insistance that stop losses and limits automatically entered with an entry order are not NFA compliant.

Again, I do hope you will explain how FIFO compliance is possible on a futures contract but not a spot FX transaction.

By the way, I can have multiple entry orders, each with stop loss and limits, and the futures broker simply executes on a FIFO basis when there are multiple contracts entered at different levels. So, tell me again that stop loss and limit orders attached to an entry order are not NFA FIFO compliant.

Thank you,

ddaytrader
  • #324
  • Jul 24, 2009 9:27am Jul 24, 2009 9:27am
Well boys and girls, I have not posted for a while as this is a waste of time. FXCM keeps insisting that OCO are stops and limits, and keeps ignoring that these simply do not work for entry orders, they are only good if you enter at market and place it at that time....That is their position. Their software will be updated soon...For me it's time to move on. Thanks to all. Let's see in a month if they continue with their song and dance after traders that use entry orders go somewhere else.
  • #325
  • Jul 24, 2009 9:35am Jul 24, 2009 9:35am
Quoting wwwin
Well boys and girls, I have not posted for a while as this is a waste of time. FXCM keeps insisting that OCO are stops and limits, and keeps ignoring that these simply do not work for entry orders, they are only good if you enter at market and place it at that time....That is their position. The software will be updated this weekend...For me it's time to move on. Thanks to all. Let's see in a month if they continue with their song and dance after traders that use entry orders go somewhere else.
For now, I will likely still trade the yen crosses at FXCM, but once the change over occurs, all of my USD rates trades (EU, GU, UCAD, UCHF) will be conducted using futures until such time as FXCM joins the rest of the NFA regulated world and allows contingent oco bracket orders to be attached to an entry order.

Unfortunately, FXCM is big enough that it seems apparent that they are betting that the few traders who decide to trade elsewhere will have a negligible impact on their business and will be quickly recovered by new traders coming on board.
  • #326
  • Jul 24, 2009 9:57am Jul 24, 2009 9:57am
cftc.gov for info on market policies,also forex.com still has stops and limits,hope this helps.
  • #327
  • Jul 24, 2009 10:04am Jul 24, 2009 10:04am
Quoting ddaytrader
Unfortunately, FXCM is big enough that it seems apparent that they are betting that the few traders who decide to trade elsewhere will have a negligible impact on their business and will be quickly recovered by new traders coming on board.

Absolutely agreed.

I'm very comfortable with the way I trade right now, with all the order facilities from my terminal. I can trade forex from all around the world and make money out of it. so if someone make me hard to trade here, I'll trade from somewhere else, as long as I still make money and certain rules that make sure my money is save, not the rules that make me hard to make money from this open and huge market. My money is more important than my broker.

If someone else think the broker is more important than his/her money than we shall see how long he/she can stay with the broker that make he/she to trade the way they want, not the way he/she want.

Thank you guys.
  • #328
  • Jul 24, 2009 10:07am Jul 24, 2009 10:07am
Quoting skyfolder
Wow... if that the case, I need to go to Australia then, what the point of staying if you can't stay long enough in the profitable trade, without a profitable trailing stop loss. What do you say Mr. FXCM Representative?.

What FXCM/NFA was thinking anyway? Are you guys out of your mind to create such a rules.

No wonder the world of financial is in a lot of trouble now, but the world of technology keep progressing.
Hi skyfolder,

First In First Out by definition requires that the first trade opened is the first trade closed. FXCM has to obey the rules, but we do not create the rules. The NFA asks FDM's for their feedback on new proposals, but it is their decision in the end if it goes through or not.

FXCM US will be compliant with the new FIFO rules. We understand that some traders trade multiple strategies exactly as you described. That's why FXCM UK and FXCM Australia is available so that you can continue to trading through a regulated entity as you always have been.

Jason
  • #329
  • Jul 24, 2009 10:19am Jul 24, 2009 10:19am
Quoting Jason Rogers
Hi skyfolder,

First In First Out by definition requires that the first trade opened is the first trade closed. FXCM has to obey the rules
But that still does not explain why it is that every other NFA regulated broker who has to adhere to the very same rules is able to provide contingent oco orders while FXCM alon finds that to do so would not be compliant with the NFA's FIFO regulations.

But I wil call the NFA right now to see if someone there can explain it to me, since FXCM refuses to own up to their insincereity.

The answer I am looking for, Jason, is this: FXCM does not want to make contingent oco orders available to traders who trade through its US based entity. I do not need FXCM to share the reason for not wanting to do so. But FXCM should simply and honestly admit that it is FXCM, and not the NFA, that has created this situation.
  • #330
  • Jul 24, 2009 10:37am Jul 24, 2009 10:37am
Quoting ddaytrader
But that still does not explain why it is that every other NFA regulated broker who has to adhere to the very same rules is able to provide contingent oco orders while FXCM alon finds that to do so would not be compliant with the NFA's FIFO regulations.

But I wil call the NFA right now to see if someone there can explain it to me, since FXCM refuses to own up to their insincereity.

The answer I am looking for, Jason, is this: FXCM does not want to make contingent oco orders available to traders who trade through its US based entity. I do not...
I don't think that they have said that contingent OCO violates FIFO. That would really the most ridiculous statement of this century. I think they said they are looking into suggestions to see which will be implemented. Basically, I think when they made the no stop no take profit decision, they did not think of all the functionatilty that would be lost that is not provided by OCO, example no trailings stops, no protection for entry orders. Frankly, I don't see how they will be able to continue with their current limited approach for long. Some people don't want to go offshore and some of these are not happy with the limited functionality. Something is got to give.
  • #331
  • Jul 24, 2009 11:20am Jul 24, 2009 11:20am
Quoting skyfolder
I'm holding my 1000++ pips long position for my long term trade, as my first opened position.
I'm also holding 100++ pips long position for my day trading, as my second opened position.

Both at the very same lot size. The second position is what I use to make my money on daily basis. With this FIFO rules, does it mean I need to close my 1000++ first?

Could someone give me the answer in a very simple manner.

Please forgive me guys I really confusing with all those financial term bcoz I'm from digital technology world which happen to trade...
There's a ton of confusion in this thread. Too many people have no idea what they are talking about.

Here is the deal with your situation, although the prices will be changed for simplicity's sake.

You have a 1 lot position open at, let's say 1.3000 on the EURUSD, in the money by 1000 pips.

You have a 1 lot position open at 1.3900 in the money by 100 pips.

The EURUSD is at 1.4000. Before NFA regulations (FIFO), you had two open positions, 1 lot at 1.3000 and 1 lot at 1.3900. Your total profit is 1100 pips. Are you following me?

With FIFO, your positions are netted. You don't have two separate orders for one lot each, but instead ONE averaged position for two lots.

In this example, you would have a TWO lot order that is averaged in at 1.3450 (the average between the two). So you have two lots that are in the money by 550 pips. This is identical to before, as you still are in the money by 1100 pips (2*550).

With FIFO, because your positions are netted, you don't close individual positions. There are no individual positions. If you wanted to close one lot, you could do so, however your averaged position is at 1.3450, so you would bank 550 pips on it. And then you would have one lot left that is still 550 pips in the money.

You could still do anything you could do before, the individual figures will look a little different, but the end result will be exactly the same.
  • #332
  • Jul 24, 2009 11:23am Jul 24, 2009 11:23am
Quoting ddaytrader
The answer I am looking for, Jason, is this: FXCM does not want to make contingent oco orders available to traders who trade through its US based entity. I do not need FXCM to share the reason for not wanting to do so. But FXCM should simply and honestly admit that it is FXCM, and not the NFA, that has created this situation.
Hi ddaytrader,

Not adding a functionality request immediately to the platform doesn't mean that FXCM does not want to make it available to traders. It isn't as easy as deciding to add something one day and the next day it's ready to go.

As relayed in our private message discussion a couple of day ago, I will do everything in my power, which included relaying this request to our CEO because I do understand your reasoning behind it. The requests do not fall on deaf ears.

Jason
  • #333
  • Jul 24, 2009 11:32am Jul 24, 2009 11:32am
Quoting Jason Rogers
Hi ddaytrader,

Not adding a functionality request immediately to the platform doesn't mean that FXCM does not want to make it available to traders. It isn't as easy as deciding to add something one day and the next day it's ready to go.

As relayed in our private message discussion a couple of day ago, I will do everything in my power, which included relaying this request to our CEO because I do understand your reasoning behind it. The requests do not fall on deaf ears.

Jason
Has a decision been made to add this functionality, or is still in the "Committee to Decide if a Committe Should be formed to Decide" stage?
  • #334
  • Jul 24, 2009 1:51pm Jul 24, 2009 1:51pm
Quoting smittens4212
There's a ton of confusion in this thread. Too many people have no idea what they are talking about.

Here is the deal with your situation, although the prices will be changed for simplicity's sake.

You have a 1 lot position open at, let's say 1.3000 on the EURUSD, in the money by 1000 pips.

You have a 1 lot position open at 1.3900 in the money by 100 pips.

The EURUSD is at 1.4000. Before NFA regulations (FIFO), you had two open positions, 1 lot at 1.3000 and 1 lot at 1.3900. Your total profit is 1100 pips. Are you following me?

With FIFO,...

Actually you don't get it, do you. I might have a plenty of long term trade through out the year from various position that no need to be netted. I only close a long term trade once in a long while and I do not need to close any other trade at any netted position whatsoever if the trade still profitable. I choose which trade to close at which position.

A daily basis trade is a trade which I'm in is only for a small profit and when I close it, just for 50 to 150 pips. I don't want my 1000++, 800++ trade to be closed half of it. What the point closing all those profitable trade while I still manage to get 50 to 150pips daily. That why we called it a long term trade.

I don't want my 1.3000 position to be changed to 1.3450. If you are the long term trader than you know what the different by changing that position. By the way do you think your opened long trade at 1.2500, 1.2600 and 1.3000 need to be change to some where around the top now by the broker?
  • #335
  • Jul 24, 2009 2:03pm Jul 24, 2009 2:03pm
Quoting skyfolder
Actually you don't get it, do you. I might have a plenty of long term trade through out the year from various position that no need to be netted. I only close a long term trade once in a long while and I do not need to close any other trade at any netted position whatsoever if the trade still profitable. I choose which trade to close at which position.

A daily basis trade is a trade which I'm in is only for a small profit and when I close it, just for 50 to 150 pips. I don't want my 1000++, 800++ trade to be closed half of it. What the point closing...
Why do u waste ur time trying to argue with the simple minds?
  • #336
  • Jul 24, 2009 2:56pm Jul 24, 2009 2:56pm
Quoting ddaytrader
Has a decision been made to add this functionality, or is still in the "Committee to Decide if a Committe Should be formed to Decide" stage?
I have not heard a decision but I'm limited as far as what I can discuss about upcoming changes. I'm not supposed to make/break news . All I can say is that it has not been rejected.
  • #337
  • Edited 10:59pm Jul 24, 2009 10:41pm | Edited 10:59pm
Quoting skyfolder
Actually you don't get it, do you. I might have a plenty of long term trade through out the year from various position that no need to be netted. I only close a long term trade once in a long while and I do not need to close any other trade at any netted position whatsoever if the trade still profitable. I choose which trade to close at which position.

A daily basis trade is a trade which I'm in is only for a small profit and when I close it, just for 50 to 150 pips. I don't want my 1000++, 800++ trade to be closed half of it. What the point closing...

I get what you want. I understand how you trade. The problem is you don't understand that the end result is the same.

It's simple math, literally NOTHING will change if you don't change your strategy at all. The end result will be the same, always. You will make the same amount of money no matter when you are closing what trades. Hold your short trade for a day and close it out and hold the long trade for a year for all I care, it's not going to change how much you make. It will change how much each position appeared to make, but if this is seriously what you are bitching about, stop being a little girl and try to understand that basically every major market trades this way, and moving FX to trade this way is a good thing.

FIFO is literally nothing but an accounting change. You can still run your long term trade, you can do whatever you want, when all is said and done and all your trades are closed out where you wanted them to be closed out, the result is going to be the exact same amount of dollars.

Quote
Why do u waste ur time trying to argue with the simple minds?
Why don't you shut the fuck up since you clearly do not understand simple accounting principals or basic math? Actually, never mind-- reading your most recent posts, I see you are a hedger. It all makes sense.

Every thread that has dealt with FIFO and/or hedging is like a big red sign saying "I AM PUTTING MONEY IN THIS BUSINESS WHEN I CAN'T FIGURE OUT THE AVERAGE OF TWO POSITIONS. TAKE MY MONEY PLEASE" and it's no wonder that 95% or whatever bullshit figure is thrown around. It's also no wonder none of the posters who have been around for a while ever touch these threads with a ten foot poll.
  • #338
  • Jul 24, 2009 11:45pm Jul 24, 2009 11:45pm
Finally someone with a brain nicely put


Quoting smittens4212
I get what you want. I understand how you trade. The problem is you don't understand that the end result is the same.

It's simple math, literally NOTHING will change if you don't change your strategy at all. The end result will be the same, always. You will make the same amount of money no matter when you are closing what trades. Hold your short trade for a day and close it out and hold the long trade for a year for all I care, it's not going to change how much you make. It will change how much each position appeared to make, but if this is...
  • #339
  • Jul 25, 2009 12:20am Jul 25, 2009 12:20am
Quoting skyfolder
Actually you don't get it, do you.
Actually, it is you who is repeatedly failing to grasp the point.
If you can't grasp what smittens is trying to tell you I would strongly suggest you don't do anything else until you come to an understanding of this matter.
The breaking of a wave cannot explain the whole sea.
  • #340
  • Jul 25, 2009 4:22am Jul 25, 2009 4:22am
Quoting Jason Rogers
hi ddaytrader,

[font=Calibri][size=3]By not offering FXCM UK as an alternative, strategies requiring individual order management will not be available and nearly all MT4 expert advisors will have to be re-coded....
FXCM makes no money whatsever on each individual transaction. They make money when clients leave after losing money. The small print for FXCM uk weedles out of the FSA rules eliminating any protection the FSA would offer to UK traders, and for a US trader, by moving you would be giving up what little protection the NFA provides. Why anyone would want to trade with a slop bucket like FXCM these days when there are so many better options out there. (Interactive brokers are a great example) The CME e-micro futures are an excellent way to trade FX for the smaller trader with the added benefit of being traded on a centralised regulated exchange. And as for this order nonsense, welcome to the world of trading people, learning how to enter orders correctly and being responsible for knowing your net position is part of the game.
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