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NFA - "No more Limit or Stop Loss orders"

  • #301
  • Jul 18, 2009 4:23pm Jul 18, 2009 4:23pm
Quoting wwwin
PS. and while they are at it, let OCO stay and add contingent OCO. OK? Just do it.
PS2. Poor Jason, he is gonna be bombarded with questions, the FXCM Ambassador's job is not gonna be easy for awhile. He has to post what the position of FXCM's management is, whether or not he totally agrees with it or not. When is FXCM's NFA rule interpreter gonna throw the white flag. It's overdue.
I hope Jason realizes that many folks, such as myself, are upset because we want to stay with FXCM. However, we also want to keep out funds stateside. Therefore, the option FXCM has provided to transfer to FXCM UK is not an option at all.

I know FXCM has many critics and detractors, but until now, I was never among them. And my only criticism is the manner in which they have chosen to respond to these changing NFA regulations.

If they make auto or at least contingent oco available, I'll be happy again. If not, then I may have no other option but to move to a broker who does make such orders available, i.e. auto stop loss and limit or contingent oco. As it is, during the past few days I have moved back to futures for the majority of my EUR and GBP trades. For now I will only trade a few of the crossrates with FXCM in preparation for the disabling of stop and limit functionality.
  • #302
  • Jul 18, 2009 4:28pm Jul 18, 2009 4:28pm
Quoting wwwin
Very interesting stuff. Good find. As I stated many times on this thread...There had to be a better solution... and there is...now FXCM will have to scramble to provide full functionality minus just the hedging capability...MT5 style...If it looks like fish, and you smell it and it smells like fish...and then you taste it, and it tastes like fish, dam it is fish.
I was not gonna post on this thread anymore as it was getting me frustated, but this is one too good to pass up.
At least FXCM can no longer hide behind the excuse "the NFA made us do it," becasue the NFA in that notice basically reiterated the same points that we have been making here. Any person who understands English could see that what the rules say do not lead to the conclusion that FXCM has attempted to lead folks to believe they did.
  • #303
  • Jul 18, 2009 4:42pm Jul 18, 2009 4:42pm
Quoting ddaytrader
It is quoted in the doucment found in post #292 of tis thread by MLforexT.

The link can be found in that post....
Thanks for that, I found it. I bet there's a lot of brokers trying to get their heads around this, lol, I don't know how they've managed to make such a mess of the whole thing
  • #304
  • Jul 20, 2009 8:54am Jul 20, 2009 8:54am
Quoting ddaytrader
It is quoted in the doucment found in post #292 of tis thread by MLforexT.

The link can be found in that post. I can't remember on which page of the document it can be found, but that is where I found it.

What stood out to me is that is exactly what I have been saying - the fifo really does not require disabling the auto stop loss and limit feature, it just requires that when a stop loss is hit it is applied to that pair on a FIFO basis. So, that is exactly what FDM's can do. However, if I were an FDM taking the other side of my customers's...
billye is correct that it was an email sent to FDM's so you won't find it on the NFA's website. The message is important because the NFA is not banning the use of stops and limits. I think the title of this thread "NFA - no more limit or stop loss orders" is a good example of what concerned them.

Our original message sent to clients was poorly worded and OCO stop and limit entry orders will still be available to manage positions. We have gone to great lengths through our DailyFX forums and by email to explain how stops and limits will be used after July 31 when the FIFO rules go into effect.

I enjoy hearing your opinions ddaytrader, *snow*, and wwwin because I know they're honest and well intended, and I'll try to give the same in return.

-Jason
  • #305
  • Jul 20, 2009 10:40am Jul 20, 2009 10:40am
Quoting Jason Rogers
Our original message sent to clients was poorly worded and OCO stop and limit entry orders will still be available to manage positions. We have gone to great lengths through our DailyFX forums and by email to explain how stops and limits will be used after July 31 when the FIFO rules go into effect.

I enjoy hearing your opinions ddaytrader, *snow*, and wwwin because I know they're honest and well intended, and I'll try to give the same in return.

-Jason

Hi Jason,

What concerns me is this: OCO is fine, but I want to have contingent OCO orders available, whereby I can, for example, set a buy stop at 1.420, and if that is filled, then an OCO sell stop at 1.41 and a sell limit at 1.43 automatically become live orders without me having physically to press the "enter" button at the time the inital position is taken.

This is a reasonable gunctionality for retail trading customers to expect, and it is not at all diffficult to offer it.

So, the question is, why is FXCM not budging on this matter?

Again, as you noted, I am not a "disgruntled" loser who is "blaming FXCM" for my losses. Far from it, I have had an excellent experience with FXCM, with only two minor trade issues relating to FXCM Deal Station. The one time it actually caused me a loss FXCM credited my account for the amount of the loss. I am singling FXCM out only because you folks are my broker, and I want to stay with FXCM.

I do hope FXCM changes its policy direction on this and offers some form of OCO that will be comparable to the auto stop loss and limit functions.

Thank you,

ddaytrader
  • #306
  • Edited Jul 21, 2009 1:05am Jul 20, 2009 11:34pm | Edited Jul 21, 2009 1:05am
Quoting Jason Rogers
Our original message sent to clients was poorly worded and OCO stop and limit entry orders will still be available to manage positions.
You’re correct. I guess FXCM was too eager to send out the first email.

In result, poorly wording:


“A major new National Futures Association (NFA) rule goes into effect on August 1, 2009. This rule affects all U.S. regulated Forex Dealer Members. Forex traders will no longer have the ability to place stop-loss or limit orders. Nor will traders be able to modify or close trades from the “Open Positions” window. As these features will be removed, all stop-loss and limit orders held on FXCM LLC accounts at the close of trading on July 31, 2009, will be deleted.”


All we did was quoted you guys. Which is the reason for the name of this thread.

Like I said before, until FXCM gets their stuff straight in the U.S…. I will be trading with another broker. I don't have the time for this.

An email from a MAJOR FOREX BROKER should be treated like a trader placing his or her execution order, according to his or her trading plan... or it can result in losses.


Thank you for your help, you have been very kind with your responses.

* SNOW *
Money Talks - Wealth Whispers . . .
  • #307
  • Edited 10:07am Jul 21, 2009 10:06am | Edited 10:07am
Quoting * Snow *
Like I said before, until FXCM gets their stuff straight in the U.S…. I will be trading with another broker. I don't have the time for this.* SNOW *

Last night before I went to be, I set an order to sell GBPUSD, with an auto stop loss and profit limit. The result was a 93 pip profit, all while I slept with no need to monitor the computer. This trade will be unavailable to me in a little more than a week.

The first US based broker who again makes it available to me will get an account and the bulk of my trades.

I hope that it will be FXCM. But hope grows dim ...
  • #308
  • Jul 21, 2009 10:49am Jul 21, 2009 10:49am
Quoting Madmax1952

Thanks OBAMA and all you SOCIALIST MF's
Idiot.

NFA is self regulating for the benefit of it's broker members!

To all those who seem to think NFA rules are somehow connected to the "new crazy communist government" that's trying to take away your freedoms of the america you used to love! Get a grip, stop being idiots.

NFA is self-governing. It was all their ideas. They give their member brokers what they want and ask for. They work for the brokers , not for us.

This is true capitalism boys. The brokers have to right to squeeze every penny out of us. You are supposed to applauding how the brokers are able to live their american dream, that you too believe you will have.

no more hedging.....because we were making money
no more stop loss.....because we were making money
no more modifying open orders......because we were making money
no more individual open orders.....because we were making money
first in/ first out execution........because we were making money

all this will cause us to close our positions more often, and cause us to pay spreads more often.

it is a facade these brokers put on their websites, pretending to "help" us achieve success...but its the same as a casino giving perks.....

so stop blaming any "socialist" government tactics....brokers want to make more money....simple as that....they are capitalists.....they are taking away our trading freedoms because it benefits them.....got it now?
  • #309
  • Jul 21, 2009 11:22am Jul 21, 2009 11:22am
Ya, that sounds about right, the big fish get bigger and the small fish get eaten for breakfast, lunch and dinner :-( The only way we can stand up to these bullies is if we all unite! Then we will have leverage and everytime they come up with some self vested rule or regulation we can say, wait a minute your gonna try and do what??? I don't think so, because if you do we will boycott every broker that goes along with you and if you don't change your unjust rules we will boycott you!!! What we need is for someone to start a non profit organization call FTU(Forex Traders United). An organization created by traders looking out for the rights of traders. That's the only way we will stop these greedy bullies from taking advantage of us. Anyone want to start it?
  • #310
  • Jul 21, 2009 1:47pm Jul 21, 2009 1:47pm
Thierry, can you please send me a private message or write me an email to rodgutie @ gmail. I would like to ask you a couple of things. Thank you.



[quote=Thierry89;2850965]Yes exactly, in bankruptcy, your deposit is protected up to €70 000 in France and £48 000 in England. [/quot
  • #311
  • Jul 21, 2009 2:19pm Jul 21, 2009 2:19pm
Quoting 4xbiz-surfer
Ya, that sounds about right, the big fish get bigger and the small fish get eaten for breakfast, lunch and dinner :-( The only way we can stand up to these bullies is if we all unite! Then we will have leverage and everytime they come up with some self vested rule or regulation we can say, wait a minute your gonna try and do what??? I don't think so, because if you do we will boycott every broker that goes along with you and if you don't change your unjust rules we will boycott you!!! What we need is for someone to start a non profit organization...
I'll stop re-loading for that brother! When do we ride?
FF = Forex Faggots
  • #312
  • Jul 21, 2009 2:41pm Jul 21, 2009 2:41pm
I guess as soon as a few people that have the motivation time and resources get together and do it! With the power of the internet and online petitions a massive grassroots movement could spread like wildfire quickly. I'm not currently in a position to do it myself or I would, however I have plenty of great ideas to get it started, if anyone is interested let me know.
  • #313
  • Jul 21, 2009 4:38pm Jul 21, 2009 4:38pm
Quoting sleepypipCDN
Idiot. [b]

no more hedging.....because we were making money
I cannot see how hedging helps you make money. In general using hedging orders brings absolutely the same results as using normal (non-hedging) orders/positions. In fact using hedging at some brokers is in the interest of the broker, not the client. For example there are some companies that take margin for each hedge position (in the same instrument) instead of for the net one or they apply interest to each position instead of for the net one. However, I am against banning hedging, but still I respect companies that provide the option to choose whether you trade using hedging orders or normal ones.
  • #314
  • Edited 10:33pm Jul 21, 2009 5:29pm | Edited 10:33pm
Can somebody explain to me how two different brokers could reach a so diametrically opposed interpration of the same rule? One or the other has got to be wrong...you cannot reconcile the interpretations.


SALT LAKE CITY— July 20, 2009—Interbank FX (IBFX.com), a worldwide provider of online foreign currency (Forex/FX) trading, announced today a solution for NFA Compliance Rule 2-43 affecting all NFA regulated Forex brokers.

Using our proprietary backoffice solutions, Interbank FX will allow our Meta Trader 4 platform to remain 100 percent compliant, while retaining order functionality and flexibility for customers trading. The MT4 platform will continue to function as our customers have experienced over the last several years. This includes the ability for customers to use fully functional Expert Advisors, Stops Losses, Take Profits, Trailing Stops and Limit Orders without making any needed adjustments.

“Certain US competitors have decided that their solution to the new FIFO rules are to move their customers overseas, rather than being compliant,” said Todd Crosland, Chairman and President of Interbank FX. “At Interbank FX, we have embraced the NFA’s efforts to help protect customers and provide a seamless solution without any changes to their current trading strategies.”

The only modification for customers will be their daily and monthly account statements, coming directly from the proprietary Interbank FX backoffice system using NFA FIFO offsetting procedures. The FIFO rule takes effect beginning July 31/August 1, 2009.

 

  1. Does FIFO apply to all of my trades?

  1. First in / First out applies ONLY to trades of the same size.

  1. Will my Expert Advisor still work?

  1. All of your Expert Advisors will continue to work with all of your pre-programmed stops, limits and trailing stops.

  1. Will I still be able to use Stops and Limits, Trailing Stops and Take Profits?

  1. Absolutely – With the IBFX solution, you won’t have to make any changes from the way that you are trading currently. No need to make any adjustments to Stops and Limits, Trailing Stops or Take Profits.

  1. Will I still be able to close any of my orders of the same currency pair in any order?

  1. Yes, with the IBFX solution, your trading will still be fully functional without any changes to your current trading strategies.

  1. How will this affect my daily statements?

  1. Interbank FX Official Statements will come directly from Interbank FX’s proprietary back office system using our FIFO offsetting and accounting procedures. These statements will be accessible through a client’s Web Site Login. You will still be able to pull an Unofficial Trade Journal using the Trade Journal feature within the IBFX website. You will also be able to produce Unofficial Trade Journals using MetaTrader 4 as your Trade Manager.

  1. Does this NFA rule apply to all U.S. based brokers?

  1. Yes, this rule affects any broker in the U.S. that is a member of the NFA. Other brokers have attempted different approaches to this new ruling. We at Interbank FX strive to make trading in the forex market as simple as possible for our clients, all the while in full compliance with the NFA.

  • #315
  • Jul 21, 2009 10:49pm Jul 21, 2009 10:49pm
Quoting 50_Pips
I cannot see how hedging helps you make money. However, I am against banning hedging, but still I respect companies that provide the option to choose whether you trade using hedging orders or normal ones.
Me too. I personally can't make hedging work, but apparently someone thinks they can, so, like you, I'm against banning it. If only 5% or retail traders are making money, the bucketshop brokers still want to go after those guys too...
  • #316
  • Jul 22, 2009 2:44am Jul 22, 2009 2:44am
Quoting ddaytrader
Last night before I went to be, I set an order to sell GBPUSD, with an auto stop loss and profit limit. The result was a 93 pip profit, all while I slept with no need to monitor the computer. This trade will be unavailable to me in a little more than a week.

The first US based broker who again makes it available to me will get an account and the bulk of my trades.

I hope that it will be FXCM. But hope grows dim ......
I'm in the same situation. :S

The current functionality of the FXCM platform is exactly what I need and am making consistent money with it and my trading methodology. Unfortunately come July 31 I will no longer be able to trade with the new platform functionality so am in the process of signing up with a new broker (still U.S. based). I'm not going with IBFX but if they can keep functionality the same then I'm sure FXCM could have done better than the unusable solution we've been offered. It's a shame because I've had a good experience with FXCM and would have liked to remain loyal, but I guess as traders we need to continually adapt to the conditions.

I am proud of FXCM for giving a subtle middle finger to the NFA by encouraging customers to transfer to the UK division. No matter how many pointless laws are implemented, most retail traders are still going to lose. "The government that is best is the one that governs least."

My 2c anyway.
  • #317
  • Jul 24, 2009 3:59am Jul 24, 2009 3:59am
Can anyone actually give me a link to the regulation of the NFA that says it will prevent the usage of limit or stop orders?
  • #318
  • Jul 24, 2009 7:22am Jul 24, 2009 7:22am
Quoting 50_Pips
Can anyone actually give me a link to the regulation of the NFA that says it will prevent the usage of limit or stop orders?
No, because that is FXCM policy, not NFA policy. NFA regulation simply says that offestting transactiona must liquidate open positions in FIFO order.

The problem here is not the NFA. The problem here is FXCM. And I will say it again, I am very happy trading with FXCM. But I do not believe that they needed to change anything other than to liquidate FIFO. Everything else should remain the same.
  • #319
  • Jul 24, 2009 8:47am Jul 24, 2009 8:47am
I'm holding my 1000++ pips long position for my long term trade, as my first opened position.
I'm also holding 100++ pips long position for my day trading, as my second opened position.

Both at the very same lot size. The second position is what I use to make my money on daily basis. With this FIFO rules, does it mean I need to close my 1000++ first?

Could someone give me the answer in a very simple manner.

Please forgive me guys I really confusing with all those financial term bcoz I'm from digital technology world which happen to trade in forex. FIFO for us is First In First Out.
  • #320
  • Jul 24, 2009 8:55am Jul 24, 2009 8:55am
Quoting skyfolder
I'm holding my 1000++ pips long position for my long term trade, as my first opened position.
I'm also holding 100++ pips long position for my day trading, as my second opened position.

Both at the very same lot size. The second position is what I use to make my money on daily basis. With this FIFO rules, does it mean I need to close my 1000++ first?

Could someone give me the answer in a very simple manner.

Please forgive me guys I really confusing with all those financial term bcoz I'm from digital technology world which happen to trade...
If I am correct, then your 1000 pip profit closes first. If you want to trade both long term and short term, you will need two different accounts.
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