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  • #61
  • Jun 16, 2009 3:22am Jun 16, 2009 3:22am
Quoting mike999
Now will that be the case with all MT5 brokers? I understand that US brokers have to follow the new NFA regulations. But will non-US brokers also have to foloow this new tool?
There has not been any other advertised / released for professional review notices, other than the one at http://www.fx1618.com/mt4/mt5-a.html .

There are a number of websites that have the same review with slightly greater / lesser detail, but all pretty much say the same thing. That MT5 brokers will only be able to hold 1 position open on a trade per instrument.

There are depth analysis improvements (which could be very good) and chart management improvements, but these have been done at the expense of trading profitability or functionality, especially if you pick the counter-trend trade. If you are based at USA brokerage you're stuffed any way because of the laws, which is why the big brokers there are allowing you to start up 2 accounts, or be registered at their non-USA base.

A summary of how MT5 brokers will affect your trading if you have been an MT4 trader is on the first post.

Trying to keep this first post updated. There is also a list of MT4 brokers from around the world that do not have these restrictions to profitability.
  • #62
  • Jun 16, 2009 3:27am Jun 16, 2009 3:27am
Why not switch to Oanda or an ECN? Posting this thread is of no consequence.
Economists have forecast 9 out of the last 5 recessions
  • #63
  • Jun 16, 2009 3:30am Jun 16, 2009 3:30am
Quoting markmm
Why not switch to Oanda or an ECN? Posting this thread is of no consequence.
The one really good thing about MT4 is the charting (I have found it to be better than Oanda), and now they have brokers that are or are developing ECN feeds.

I am not price action guru, and have relied upon certain MQL4 based indicators for some of my trading. It would be a shame to lose those.
  • #64
  • Jun 16, 2009 3:52am Jun 16, 2009 3:52am
Quoting aquaart
The one really good thing about MT4 is the charting (I have found it to be better than Oanda), and now they have brokers that are or are developing ECN feeds.

I am not price action guru, and have relied upon certain MQL4 based indicators for some of my trading. It would be a shame to lose those.
Ah ok the only other option would be trade station for charting, but it's not free.
Economists have forecast 9 out of the last 5 recessions
  • #65
  • Jun 18, 2009 2:59am Jun 18, 2009 2:59am
There is a way around this.... But I would doubt that this would occur cause it would make it harder for MT5 brokers.

That is a partial work around ...
At the take profit of the SELL orders, the take profit take 3 lots profit thereby opening up the overall long trade of 2 lots.
This would mean within every position, MT5 would have to have all take profit points mentioned in a summary of the overall position.

However having said this, it would mean that the MT5 broker would need to be able to distinquish between the counter trend trade that takes its profit and automatically adjusts to its original position, and the person who adds to their position (which would be another trade).

It would also mean that in the end, the MT5 broker would have to be giving the counter trend trader a free trade every time they did counter trend trading.

I would doubt that this would ever happen, they're not a charity organisation...

But it still does not override the stop loss pips needed from the sell trade.
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  • #66
  • Jun 20, 2009 3:13am Jun 20, 2009 3:13am
2 articles about MT5

Metatrader 5 and MQL 5 Development - questions and answers

More Forex Profits With New MT5 Expert Advisors
  • #67
  • Jun 22, 2009 3:47am Jun 22, 2009 3:47am
Quoting fibo237
2 articles about MT5

Metatrader 5 and MQL 5 Development - questions and answers

More Forex Profits With New MT5 Expert Advisors

Good links Fibo.

Here is what IBFX sent out, my words are in blue, IBFX’s black.

We now know that NFA rules have been introduced and that MT5 developers are helping MT5 brokers obey NFA rules. Hence what the NFA have done with these rules, the MT5 developers have done with the software.
Some people have thought that single position trading was initiated by the NFA and MT5 to help the newbie trader be protected.

However evidence below suggests quite the opposite. What it really has done exposed the newbie and professional trader alike to greater risk, if they are to employ any of the strategies that pick or use opposing trades / counter trends. Greater exposure to risk equals greater profits for the retail broker (because they are allowed to hedge your loses). Remember also that brokers are in themselves exempt from these NFA rules of trading.

“Recently the NFA (MT5) issued new (trading position recognition) regulations prohibiting traders from hedging (having long and short positions open on the same currency pair at the same time). We realize that said regulatory changes will affect the trading style of many customers. As a solution, IBFX’s MultiTrader 4 (Multi-platform MT5) allows users to easily manage multiple accounts at once; via this new trading tool you are able to go short in one account and long in another or vice versa!”
The message went further to explain margin implications by reminding IBFX clients, “Keep in mind when using this tool, you are now operating in two separate accounts, and thus, margin rules will behave differently. Formally, additional margin was not required when hedging open positions. Going forward, traders utilizing MultiTrader 4 (Multi-platform MT5) as a hedging tool will be required to post margin on both sides of the trade, thus increasing the risk of a margin call.”

The MT5 broker will be forcing people to do the same things, if people use multiple EAs on the one currency, EAs alongside manual trading on the one currency, Martingale or Grid trading strategies, rebound resistance and support traders, and for all these trade styles to put it in the words of IBFX “thus increasing the risk of a margin call” if you were to continue using your strategies with separated accounts.
I can not even contemplate the idea that NFA would leave such a big whole in their rule book, if the rule was their to protect the traders.
Those that knew how to trade counter trends in MT4 could cover their risk well, but with an MT5 broker / NFA regulated broker are now exposed to greater risk.
  • #68
  • Jun 28, 2009 10:14am Jun 28, 2009 10:14am
Quoting fibo237
2 articles about MT5

Metatrader 5 and MQL 5 Development - questions and answers

More Forex Profits With New MT5 Expert Advisors
Hi Fibo,

I didn't realise that you were associated with MT5 development crew.

Will there be seperate releases of MT5 for NFA regulated and non-NFA regulated brokers?

That's meaning, will you be developing a platform that is capable of holding individualised positions for both long and short on the one instrument for non-NFA brokers?
  • #69
  • Jun 28, 2009 11:53am Jun 28, 2009 11:53am
hi aquaart,

appreciate your work on this thread. do u have more info on pronetfx?? the marketing on their website looks good but we all know it's misleading. this broker fits what i'm looking 4. as i'm a 1m trader who does short trades n scalps. thanks
  • #70
  • Jun 28, 2009 4:03pm Jun 28, 2009 4:03pm
Hi Aquaart. Why complicate simple things?
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  • #71
  • Jun 28, 2009 9:05pm Jun 28, 2009 9:05pm
Quoting viat
Hi Aquaart. Why complicate simple things?
Complication is about real trading rather than hypothetical scenarios that always work. Ones that always work show that counter trend trading can always be matched with simple trend trading. But when trades go wrong, counter trend trader in MT4 will come out on top... Hence the complication.


What you missed for the trend trade scenario is what you pointed out for the counter trend trader (the going to a loss)...

That is if the Sell goes to a loss, this would mean that the BUY at the BUY LIMIT is never entered for the trend trader. Hence the trend trader misses out on their long term BUY that he/she would want to remain in (if they wanted to pick up the intraday movements).


The losing points on the nedge part would be the equivalent to not being in the trade at all for the trend only trader.

As the BUY LIMIT (re-entry point, or t/p point for the counter trend trader) was not reached.

Hence the trend trader is now out of the BUY trade all together. While the counter trend trader with an MT4 broker (non-NFA) based platform is still in their long term trade objective.

This cannot happen with an MT5 broker.
  • #72
  • Edited 9:36pm Jun 28, 2009 9:20pm | Edited 9:36pm
Quoting winningfx
hi aquaart,

appreciate your work on this thread. do u have more info on pronetfx?? the marketing on their website looks good but we all know it's misleading. this broker fits what i'm looking 4. as i'm a 1m trader who does short trades n scalps. thanks
Sorry winningfx, I know nothing about http://www.pronetfx.com but are regulated in the United Arab Emirates, MT4 based and don't mind scalpers / news traders as they are ECN (says it in their demo). I have them in my list on the first post.

On the GBPUSD, 0.1 lot trade, gets $1.35 commission taken from it. So commission is about the equivalent of 1.35 pip round trip.
  • #73
  • Jun 28, 2009 9:34pm Jun 28, 2009 9:34pm
Quoting pnf-trader
The reason why MT4 EAs will not be working anymore is because of a different programming paradigm. They have implemented OOP, object oriented programming. Also, if the order execution has changed, this makes EAs incompatible.
OOP is a supplemental programming paradigm, not a different one. C++ is designed to be backwards compatable with ANSI C.

No, this was done for the brokers not the traders. If Metatrader welded their corporate headquarters shut for a decade, the world would be a better place for traders. As it is I have to spend vacation time figuring out workarounds.
  • #74
  • Jun 28, 2009 9:46pm Jun 28, 2009 9:46pm
Quoting rossiya
OOP is a supplemental programming paradigm, not a different one. C++ is designed to be backwards compatable with ANSI C.

No, this was done for the brokers not the traders. If Metatrader welded their corporate headquarters shut for a decade, the world would be a better place for traders. As it is I have to spend vacation time figuring out workarounds.
So just to clarify for a hack programmer, MQL5 would be backwards compatible with MQL4 if metatrader developers were wanting to make it so????
  • #75
  • Jun 28, 2009 10:08pm Jun 28, 2009 10:08pm
Quoting aquaart
So just to clarify for a hack programmer, MQL5 would be backwards compatible with MQL4 if metatrader developers were wanting to make it so????
Yes, there is no excuse in regards to language compatibility. Of course they changed the API and worse the meaning of some API calls. They could have kept OrderClose() by renaming it OrderClose4(). But no, they're tossing it. In fact there are many legacy function names in MT4 at present, so that old scripts from 2005 compile. Now suddenly they need to break all the EAs.

I know they've done some kind of native binary compilation for MT5 for speed considerations. But again that's an implementation detail which should have no bearing on an abstracted language like MT4/MT5. Personally I can get speed from hardware but there's no way I can simply work around the damage Metaquotes is imposing with MT5. It will require new trading strategies, new accounts and new code. All this in the middle of a recession. They just pour salt on the wounds.
  • #76
  • Jun 29, 2009 12:05am Jun 29, 2009 12:05am
Quoting aquaart
Complication is about real trading rather than hypothetical scenarios that always work. Ones that always work show that counter trend trading can always be matched with simple trend trading. But when trades go wrong, counter trend trader in MT4 will come out on top... Hence the complication.


What you missed for the trend trade scenario is what you pointed out for the counter trend trader (the going to a loss)...

That is if the Sell goes to a loss, this would mean that the BUY at the BUY LIMIT is never entered for the trend trader. Hence the...
If your BUY LIMIT was not reached you continue be in long after BUY stop(imaginery stop loss for you nedge short counter trade) is reached.
No additional spread.
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  • #77
  • Jun 29, 2009 3:38am Jun 29, 2009 3:38am
Quoting aquaart
Hi Fibo,

I didn't realise that you were associated with MT5 development crew.....
Sorry, I'm not associated with MT5 development crew.
  • #78
  • Jun 29, 2009 4:21am Jun 29, 2009 4:21am
What a lot of nonsense there is in this thread.

There isn't anything you can do in MT4 that you won't be able to do in MT5 (assuming Metaquotes have implemented it correctly). FIFO accounting cannot cost you money.

Market buy with TP/SL is replaced by Market buy order + OCO Stop/Limit sell order
Limit buy with TP/SL is replaced by Limit buy order + If done OCO Stop/Limit sell order.
Stop buy with TP/SL is replaced by Stop buy order + If done OCO Stop/Limit sell order.

Everything works exactly the same except there is no hedge and therefore no additional margin and swap costs that hedging introduces. There is no problem having multiple EAs with different strategies or having EA and manual at the same time. It really doesn't change anything. In fact it's slightly more flexible.
  • #79
  • Jun 29, 2009 8:08am Jun 29, 2009 8:08am
Quoting euclid
What a lot of nonsense there is in this thread.

There isn't anything you can do in MT4 that you won't be able to do in MT5 (assuming Metaquotes have implemented it correctly). FIFO accounting cannot cost you money.

Market buy with TP/SL is replaced by Market buy order + OCO Stop/Limit sell order
Limit buy with TP/SL is replaced by Limit buy order + If done OCO Stop/Limit sell order.
Stop buy with TP/SL is replaced by Stop buy order + If done OCO Stop/Limit sell order.

Everything works exactly the same except there is no hedge and therefore...
Sourced from... See post #3

My sources are is the first promotional material used.

1 position only through out your entire trading on one instrument.

In other words, if you place a BUY trade with t/p (Market buy order + OCO Stop/Limit sell order) and then place a SELL trade with t/p later (Market SELL order + OCO Stop/Limit BUY order) then you will be left the resulting overall position.

Two trades are amalgamated into one position.

Previously each trade held its own individual position. As a result if for example the SELL trade didn't make it and went to its stop loss, the position for those pips would have been neutral. Just like it would with your thought line...

However the difference then becomes that for the new system you would have to setup a new BUY stop order at the SELL stop loss. However, because you needed a new BUY limit at the SELL's t/p you have not placed those trades unless you could do an OCO with the BUY STOP at the SELL's s/l. (This BUY STOP is also where the additional trade is)

This requires OCO ability and also increases the complexity of trading. MT5 developers have not hinted at an OCO ability.

With MT4 brokers you could just remain in the long term BUY trade, how much easier is that?

Many times easier is my answer.
  • #80
  • Jun 29, 2009 8:12am Jun 29, 2009 8:12am
Quoting viat
If your BUY LIMIT was not reached you continue be in long after BUY stop(imaginery stop loss for you nedge short counter trade) is reached.
No additional spread.
But with a seperate position for the first BUY trade you never exited your position.

Hence the new pending BUY that becomes the market BUY is where the additional spread / commission is that you pay with an MT5 broker. Why??? Because in MT4 the original BUY position (which is a trade in MT4) goes all the way through...
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