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NEW MT5 Seriously Stuffed For Traders Platform

  • #41
  • Jun 12, 2009 3:32pm Jun 12, 2009 3:32pm
I'm glad to finally see a decent post.

  • #42
  • Jun 12, 2009 3:36pm Jun 12, 2009 3:36pm
The whole process could be easily automated, something like:

Inserted Code
extern double PriceLevelA = .........;
extern double PriceLevelB = .........;
extern double PriceLevelC = .........;
extern double PriceLevelD = .........;
extern double PriceLevelE = .........;
extern double PriceLevelF = .........;

: : : : : : : : : : : : : : :

int nedge_long_order_status  = 0;  // 0=not yet placed; 1=currently open; 2=closed
int nedge_short_order_status = 0;  // 0=not yet placed; 1=currently open; 2=closed

while (nedge_long_order_status < 2)   {

   if("price reaches level B" && nedge_long_order_status = 0)   {
     // place BUY order #1 (OrderSend....) and handle feedback/error messages from broker
     nedge_long_order_status = 1;
   }

   if("price reaches level D" && nedge_long_order_status = 1 && nedge_short_order_status = 0)   {
     // close BUY order (OrderClose....) and handle feedback/error messages from broker
     nedge_short_order_status = 1;
   }

   if(("price reaches level C" || "price reaches level E") && nedge_short_order_status = 1)   {
     // place BUY order #2(OrderSend....) and handle feedback/error messages from broker
     nedge_short_order_status = 2;
   }
  
   if(("price reaches level A" || "price reaches level F") && nedge_long_order_status = 1)   {
     // close BUY order (OrderClose....) and handle feedback/error messages from broker
     nedge_long_order_status = 2;
   }
}

This refers to the price levels in my previous diagram. It should replicate the nedge perfectly, using only BUY orders.
  • #43
  • Jun 12, 2009 3:55pm Jun 12, 2009 3:55pm
I'm not sure if this is relevant, but nobody seems to have mentioned it.

The change in order entry style for MT5 only brings it into line with 99% of other trading platforms for all forms of trading (stocks, futures and most forex). What MT4 does is to simulate separate orders, but underlying this one still has a single underlying position in the market, and this is how almost every other platform that I have used does things (but my experience is obviously by no means exhaustive). Obviously the mechanics of achieving the same order flow change, but the result remains the same.

Somewhere above it is mentioned that 'Traditional Martingale' (whatever that is?) is not possible, this is complete rubbish, traders the world over are scaling up, down, in and out of trades without the benefit of MT4, but I guess they are all using 'Non-Traditional Martingale' according to the author of that post.

Calling MT5 stupid names in large fonts and writing meaningless diatribes does nothing to change any of this and only betrays the naivety of the author. I would once again recommend newbs read the posts of hanover before trying to pick though any of the crap posted here.

Anyway, sod this, I'm of to Rarotonga for a week Ciao!
The breaking of a wave cannot explain the whole sea.
  • #44
  • Jun 12, 2009 4:55pm Jun 12, 2009 4:55pm
Quote
(any scenario at any given point is ultimately nothing more than a net position, and can be replicated by a single order)

Not true. There are scenarios when the market can be moving so fast that it can hit both your buy and sell orders and you can tp on the server for both before you have a chance to put in another order.

You can fix this by running orders in different accts, but that complicates things.
  • #45
  • Jun 12, 2009 11:38pm Jun 12, 2009 11:38pm
Quoting Craig
The change in order entry style for MT5 only brings it into line with 99% of other trading platforms for all forms of trading (stocks, futures and most forex). What MT4 does is to simulate separate orders, but underlying this one still has a single underlying position in the market, and this is how almost every other platform that I have used does things (but my experience is obviously by no means exhaustive). Obviously the mechanics of achieving the same order flow change, but the result remains the same.
Yes that is the whole point, there is a change that reduces functionality, rather than increasing it... and trader may as well trade on another platform because of the change. Opportunities that were are now not.

Quoting Craig
Somewhere above it is mentioned that 'Traditional Martingale' (whatever that is?) is not possible, this is complete rubbish, traders the world over are scaling up, down, in and out of trades without the benefit of MT4, but I guess they are all using 'Non-Traditional Martingale' according to the author of that post.
Yes you are right... Martingale has an ever increasing gamble that the trade will go in one direction where the gamble will eventually pay off.

However I don't think I need to clarify that I was answering this for sanzaru likely to be an MT4 user(and other readers who are presently using MT4), and that my answer probably should have said "in COMMON place for martingale trader using MT4" instead, as this the alternative question that Sanzaru alluded to.
I was only trying to relate my answer more closely to the topic of MT4 to MetaSTEALERTrader 5 changes that are appreciated or not appreciated more closely to the topic.

In Common MT4 Martingale Systems they normally have trades going in both directions, which then get scaled up and down accordingly. The Brokers, have a limited cash supply, but if they offered 0.01 lots for trading using lot sizing of maximum 50 and trade streaming was allowed these were the lots that could be traded for a gambler or martingale system user with huge money supply.
0.01, 0.02, 0.04, 0.08, 0.16, 0.32, 0.64, 1.28, 2.56, 5.12, 10.14, 20.28, 40.56, (2*40.56), (4*40.56), (8*40.58). Doubling beyond this would test most brokers cash supply (not the big wigs), it is also the real reason why brokers put in trading size limits.

However, because in MT4 they could trade in both directions (this is what swung the odds towards the trader), the direction going with the trend could also increase at trade by half as much, thereby significantly increasing the length before margin call was being called.

Hence when I said traditional, I should have said what is common place for MT4 which is probably what sanzaru meant.
The other wise in MT4 terms, is trend or break out trading.

However gamblers from casinos, only ever had the option of covering in one direction which is why eventually a gambler in casinos will lose more quickly. Red or black to swing the house into roulette wheel with a "stop loss" or "take profit" at the end of each spin. However that still left a large risk of 50/50 to the house. Hence to enlarge this chance of losing the introduction of the third single colour to reduce the 50/50 chance, this was also the likely introduction of house limits, this stopped people using Martingale.

However, in forex with MT4 with martingale in full swing there was no "stop loss" and only "take profit", that dramatically shifts that odds into the traders favour. Because they can minimilise the loss by having all take profits at the maximum trade size take profit point.

However, if they were really trying to look after the trader in MT4 to MetaSTEALERTrader 5 progression, what would have happened, is a move of an in built limit of closeness of trades being placed. For example if a trader were to to be limited to a 1 buy or 1 sell only in the opposing direction of other trades with a minimum of 15 points proximity, MetaSTEALERTrader 5 would not be taking back trade functionality, be looking after the counter trend trader, whilst inhibiting the martingale system users that are in common place with some MT4 users.

In other words they didn't do this because.....
And the reason that I am doing MetaSTEALERTrader 5 is to repeat time and time again, that MT4 progression to MT5 has actually taken away trade opportunity for the trader and potentially increased the costs of trading.

I think the answer has been described above... Although my original answer may have sounded naive, I was relating it to what sanzaru was alluding to.

Quoting Craig
I'm of to Rarotonga for a week Ciao!
Nice... Enjoy the islands...
  • #46
  • Jun 13, 2009 4:45am Jun 13, 2009 4:45am
Quoting Craig

Calling MT5 stupid names in large fonts and writing meaningless diatribes does nothing to change any of this and only betrays the naivety of the author. I would once again recommend newbs read the posts of hanover before trying to pick though any of the crap posted here.
Totally agree!
  • #47
  • Edited 11:16am Jun 13, 2009 10:03am | Edited 11:16am
Quoting hanover
The whole process could be easily automated, something like:

[code]
extern double PriceLevelA = .........;
extern double PriceLevelB = .........;
extern double PriceLevelC = .........;
extern double PriceLevelD = .........;
extern double PriceLevelE = .........;
extern double PriceLevelF = .........;

: : : : : : : : : : : : : : :

int nedge_long_order_status...
Thank you for the code...
Logic behind it works very well...
As you are well aware you will have made the coding so that exposure to excessuve risk is gone AND obeys the laws of trading as determined by MetaSTEALERTrader 5 or the NFA.

Thank you.


But you would also be well aware that despite your excellent logic, it cannot overcome the stop loss of the nedge losing pips on the original BUY order, simply because we are not allowed to run it.


Hence to catch your main goal of the long term BUY trade, given the scenario earlier in the thread, you do 1 of the following:

  1. 1 long term BUY trade and miss the intra-timeframe pips. (forefeit the short term SELL trade opportunity)
  2. 2 shorter term BUY trades, which involves prediction of re-entry if you are not around for the second BUY opportunity.
  3. 2 shorter term BUYs and 1 counter-trend SELL, which may make one of the shorter term BUYs less successful because of the stop loss / room to breathe need on the SELL order. (and requires three trades instead of the original two)

See how every single choice, requires something extra on behalf of the trader, or requires the trader to forego a trade.... This did not occur in MT4 but is now occurring in MetaSTEALERTrader 5 and therefore occurs with MT5 brokers.

Hence MT5 brokers / banks will benefit from MetaSTEALERTrader 5, while the trader may have some extra tools they only have the potential to lose / pay more money.

  • #48
  • Jun 13, 2009 11:08am Jun 13, 2009 11:08am
Buhu cry me a river...
  • #49
  • Jun 13, 2009 11:39am Jun 13, 2009 11:39am
Quoting pipmutt
Totally agree!
The initial purpose in calling it MetaSTEALERTrader 5 was to high light the extra pips / commissions that will be taken from the trader to be given to the MT5 broker, because of the change in counter trend trading opportunities.

Or
To highlight that if you feel that you can not do the above, trade opportunities with MT5 brokers which take full advantage of the intraday market will be reduced, unless you are able / willing to do the above.

Or
That manual traders will not be able to let EAs run free on the same MT5 broker's account. Again reducing trade opportunity for trader at any MT5 brokerage. It has since shown that traders using EAs to AID their trading will not be able to do this with the one MT5 broker's account. To be free with the EA they must have 2 sepearate accounts or seperate MT5 brokers.

Plus more....

Scenario

If your typed out trading method was deleted (or the written paper you had it on was taken from you) and this was done by someone against your will, it would be considered stealing.

By changing the platform, the MT5 developers have effectively stolen / eliminated / gotten rid of / deleted one of my methods of trading, if all MT4 brokers were to downgrade to MT5 brokers. One of my methods has just been deleted...

The riskiest method is my most profitable (normally), but because it is so risky I shouldn't use it without support of my other methods.

Although I realise this is a part of life, if this was done any other way (and I know it wasn't), it would be considered stealing. I do call it my tirade at the beginning of the thread.
  • #50
  • Edited 2:01pm Jun 13, 2009 12:09pm | Edited 2:01pm
Quoting pnf-trader
They implemented market depth also, so this pushes this platform more into the direction of a professional trading platform, don't you think?

I find it sad that some (many?) Metatrader brokers have such a bad image - and this will often be associated with the platform itself. I hope this will change in future and solid brokers like MB Trading, Deutsche Bank and others will offer this platform under fair conditions.
Market depth in FOREX is only relatively accurate.

The reason is, that the people who move the market with huge volumes, do not release the trading volume that they do, for analysis by others at that time that the trading is done. Because they know that this would help others earn money, which is their sole purpose. According to the euromoneyFX survey in May 2008, 79.61% of the 3.98 trillion dollars yearly was completed by 10 of the world's biggest banks. Hence without knowing their trading volume, analysis of traded volume is not good.

Because when your sole purpose is to make money, why would you give away your trade secrets on how you did it?

However, what market depth is likely to be of, is the MT5 brokers trading and their clients, or simply the number of trades completed (not volume of each trade globally). Who knows?

This type of market depth will be less accurate than a full analysis, but with a full analysis being out of the reach of us traders it is more accurate that what we presently have.

If you would like a list of MT4 brokers that have not downgraded to an MT5 broker, and therefore allow counter trend trading without the hassles, I have updated the first post of this thread with an MT5 broker free list. Here is MT4 broker list that allows counter trend trading.
http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=174626
  • #51
  • Jun 13, 2009 7:25pm Jun 13, 2009 7:25pm
if mbtrading figures out how to use, great. other wise i don't like any market maker as it is. the only other on mt i like is FXCM or nord markets. that's it.
  • #52
  • Edited 6:37am Jun 14, 2009 6:26am | Edited 6:37am
Quoting blazespinnaker
Not true. There are scenarios when the market can be moving so fast that it can hit both your buy and sell orders and you can tp on the server for both before you have a chance to put in another order.

You can fix this by running orders in different accts, but that complicates things.
Well yes the net position can normally be replicated, there are fast moving exceptions.

But in the end the net position as is done by MT5 brokers, does not matter, it is the change in balance and equity that matters.

What is not replicated at the end of the net postion for MT5 brokers, is a net balance, because to replicate the net position as a single position, requires a stop loss or take profit to have been issued on the opposing position. That is, your account balance is effected. Hence a single position as it will be for a trader with an MT5 broker is really a loss.

This means profit may be recognised too early or that a loss is recognised when it was not meant to have been.
  • #53
  • Jun 14, 2009 10:24am Jun 14, 2009 10:24am
Quoting aquaart
Well yes the net position can normally be replicated, there are fast moving exceptions.

But in the end the net position as is done by MT5 brokers, does not matter, it is the change in balance and equity that matters.

What is not replicated at the end of the net postion for MT5 brokers, is a net balance, because to replicate the net position as a single position, requires a stop loss or take profit to have been issued on the opposing position. That is, your account balance is effected. Hence a single position...
Why are u still here? Why do u still trade Forex?(I agree with many of your points BTW).
FF = Forex Faggots
  • #54
  • Jun 15, 2009 3:03am Jun 15, 2009 3:03am
Quoting 8fingers
Why are u still here? Why do u still trade Forex?(I agree with many of your points BTW).
Although there are many MT4 brokers out there that have used dodgey tactics... There are those that have been above board the whole time.

Some of them I believe are:
GoMarketsaus.com
axisodl.com.au
odlmarkets.co.uk

Also the leverage is so much better (higher) than any other market.
  • #55
  • Jun 15, 2009 3:18am Jun 15, 2009 3:18am
Quoting aquaart
But you would also be well aware that despite your excellent logic, it cannot overcome the stop loss of the nedge losing pips on the original BUY order, simply because we are not allowed to run it.
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are 'not allowed to run'.

I was trying to illustrate how it was possible to catch the same pips, with the same margin consumption, and exposure to risk, by having only one buy order open at any given point, and with absolutely no on-going monitoring/screen time required....... by using an automated process. If MT5 doesn't allow you to run something along these lines, then I agree, it's a sad situation.

I wasn't attempting to be a smarta$$, or prove you wrong. If I've come across that way, then I'm sorry I posted in this thread. I hope that you can find another MT4 broker. Anyway, from what I've read about code incompatibilities between MQL4 an MQL5, MT5 is unlikely to gain international acceptance overnight.
  • #56
  • Jun 15, 2009 4:12am Jun 15, 2009 4:12am
I don't see the point of this thread. Metatrader is only good for one thing, free demo data and charting, live trading with them is for newbie account liquidation. Instead of crying about it just change brokers.
Economists have forecast 9 out of the last 5 recessions
  • #57
  • Jun 15, 2009 5:21am Jun 15, 2009 5:21am
Quoting hanover
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are 'not allowed to run'.
I was trying to illustrate how it was possible to catch the same pips, with the same margin consumption, and exposure to risk,
Quoting hanover
I wasn't attempting to be a smarta$$. I'm sorry I posted in this thread. I hope that you can find another MT4 broker.
My thank you's were genuine, they were not meant to be taken sarcastically in any way shape or form. Hence my update of the thread starter where I noted your coding and have used the website that you suggested to enhance this thread. I appreciate your input into this thread.
Do well, Hanover, and believe it or not I do read some of your trading posts and appreciated the multi time zone 4 hour aggregate indicator that you participated in making. You are a great contributer to these forums.
  • #58
  • Jun 15, 2009 5:59am Jun 15, 2009 5:59am
Quoting hanover
'not allowed to run'
With an MT4 brokerage,
A buy order would be allowed to run from A to F in your trade scenario.

With an MT5 brokerage,
To make up for this we would need to be able to run a BUY order from points D to E.
But this is not possible because this is the room that the SELL trade is allowed to move, hence, no BUY trade allowed with an MT5 broker because you can not have 2 positions at once.

That's all, no offence was intended.
  • #59
  • Jun 15, 2009 11:44am Jun 15, 2009 11:44am
Quoting aquaart
With an MT4 brokerage,
A buy order would be allowed to run from A to F in your trade scenario.

With an MT5 brokerage,
To make up for this we would need to be able to run a BUY order from points D to E.
But this is not possible because this is the room that the SELL trade is allowed to move, hence, no BUY trade allowed with an MT5 broker because you can not have 2 positions at once.

That's all, no offence was intended.
Now will that be the case with all MT5 brokers? I understand that US brokers have to follow the new NFA regulations. But will non-US brokers also have to foloow this new tool?
  • #60
  • Jun 15, 2009 3:19pm Jun 15, 2009 3:19pm
Quoting aquaart
With an MT4 brokerage,
A buy order would be allowed to run from A to F in your trade scenario.

With an MT5 brokerage,
To make up for this we would need to be able to run a BUY order from points D to E.
But this is not possible because this is the room that the SELL trade is allowed to move, hence, no BUY trade allowed with an MT5 broker because you can not have 2 positions at once.

That's all, no offence was intended.
No problem, it's just that I sensed your frustration and I didn't want to make things worse for you.

In the automated solution that I proposed (post #42), the buy order opened at B must be closed at D before the second buy order gets opened at either C or E (whichever is subsequently reached first). So there should only ever be one buy order opened at any given point in time, no matter what path price ultimately takes.

The workaround should catch exactly the same pips that the nedge does. But of course your nedge might operate differently, so the logic would need to be modified accordingly. I was merely illustrating one possible example.

Of course you could achieve the same thing manually, but that would mean monitoring the charts continuously, which I agree is a total pain in the a$$. Even though I don't nedge, I try to automate as much of my trading as I can, for the very same reason.
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