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250 pips slippage on Currenex - ODL Securities

  • #101
  • Apr 24, 2007 9:17am Apr 24, 2007 9:17am
Quoting zek132
I just forwarded all of the details to currenex. They have said, as one would expect, that the trades are valid. That's exactly why i feel like we would be fighting a lost cause. The contact at currenex was very polite and understanding though.

Best regards,

Vlad
No doubt the trade are valid but the point is in fact not there.

The point is that that did not revert your trade while it seems they reverted the counterparty trade which is a total rip off !!!
  • #102
  • Apr 24, 2007 10:51am Apr 24, 2007 10:51am
Quoting Peter Pan
I just got a single-line reply from ODL that they will not disclose the counterparty of the trades as this is a "secret". Trades were done in the name of ODL, so they state to be the counterparty for regulatory and contractual purposes.

If a customer of a broker is dealing in the name of the broker, wouldn't that mean that the customer should finally be allowed to get all informations the broker has itself about his trades on a interbank market ?

PP
One of the big things about trading on FXall, Currenex, Hotspotfxi besides the 1pip spreads is it's anonminity
  • #103
  • Apr 24, 2007 1:28pm Apr 24, 2007 1:28pm
Zek:

Why FSA, not CFTC (U.S. gov. agency) and NFA? Who's FSA anyway? In UK?

Cheers,

PM
  • #104
  • Apr 24, 2007 2:05pm Apr 24, 2007 2:05pm
call up hotspotfxi and ask what they would do in this situation. i know they would give your funds back. and they would not have allowed turbo in at a fake price. this is the common sense difference in currenex vs hotspotfxi. i'm with two different currenex brokers unfortunately. another thing hotspot has over currenex is no second look. banks are not allowed a second look at our orders to refuse them. if banks put a price on the screen it must be executed. it's the way it should be.
It really is that easy.
  • #105
  • Apr 24, 2007 2:30pm Apr 24, 2007 2:30pm
This has been a real eye-opener of a thread.

Lesson #1:

The broker (who will remain nameless in this post ) pretty clearly got caught with their sneaky little fingers in the cookie jar. Once again the power of the internet and forums!!! Congrats to FF for making this sort of transparency possible.

Lesson #2: Ya gotta understand the orders you're placing. I place market orders ONLY when I can see market depth, etc. (but heck, I trade only on globex). Nice little play that turbo has (yeah, I've thought of it too....and obviously others have as well)....but it IS big news to me to hear that a majority of those plays get busted

.....and aren't we all dupes to think they get busted in both directions!

I'll trade spot when FXMarketSpace gets set up for retail (i.e., less than $20 million account)...and not a second sooner. But, needless to say, I'll STILL always keep in mind that a market order is a market order.
  • #106
  • Apr 24, 2007 3:15pm Apr 24, 2007 3:15pm
I hope this thread provides good experience for everyone who reads it. It has cetrainly tought me a lot.
  • #107
  • Edited 4:05pm Apr 24, 2007 3:46pm | Edited 4:05pm
Quoting THE FxORCE
call up hotspotfxi and ask what they would do in this situation. i know they would give your funds back. and they would not have allowed turbo in at a fake price. this is the common sense difference in currenex vs hotspotfxi. i'm with two different currenex brokers unfortunately. another thing hotspot has over currenex is no second look. banks are not allowed a second look at our orders to refuse them. if banks put a price on the screen it must be executed. it's the way it should be.
Have you traded on Hotspotfxi? Cause I have and have seen off market fills on it. I personally found the spreads tighter on Currenex not to mention you can do conditional orders.

Your assuming I just got some crazy fill out of the blue the fact is I had an offer there so just like if the bank put the price up or I put the price up it was executed.

This has everything to do with liquidity. The spreads even go wider on the the majors on hotspotfxi than they do w/ Currenex in the middle of a major news releases.
  • #108
  • Apr 24, 2007 4:13pm Apr 24, 2007 4:13pm
Quoting THE FxORCE
call up hotspotfxi and ask what they would do in this situation. i know they would give your funds back.
Well of course they would TELL you that. What do you think they're gonna say, "Naw, sir, we'd screw you over like ODL does their customers... but please, come on over to us!"
Mr. Trend
  • #109
  • Apr 24, 2007 4:14pm Apr 24, 2007 4:14pm
Quoting Dopey
I think you have a serious thinking problem. Who really cares what "various people" have told you? If you're for real (I have strong doubts about your story), then you report them. You're going to swallow a 30k loss because of what "various people" told you? That defies all sensible thinking.
I can assure you, despite the fact that one might not think there are any big indie traders on this forum, this story is for real.
Mr. Trend
  • #110
  • Apr 24, 2007 7:23pm Apr 24, 2007 7:23pm
Quoting GetMeThere
This has been a real eye-opener of a thread.

Lesson #1:

The broker (who will remain nameless in this post ) pretty clearly got caught with their sneaky little fingers in the cookie jar. Once again the power of the internet and forums!!! Congrats to FF for making this sort of transparency possible.

Lesson #2: Ya gotta understand the orders you're placing. I place market orders ONLY when I can see market depth, etc. (but heck, I trade only on globex). Nice little play that turbo has (yeah, I've thought of it too....and obviously others have as well)....but it IS big news to me to hear that a majority of those plays get busted

.....and aren't we all dupes to think they get busted in both directions!

I'll trade spot when FXMarketSpace gets set up for retail (i.e., less than $20 million account)...and not a second sooner. But, needless to say, I'll STILL always keep in mind that a market order is a market order.

I also will only trade spot on FXMarketspace, no second look option for banks like you have on Currenex ,Hotspot and all the other multi-bank platforms.
On those platforms you have so-called anonymity but under pressure of the brokers, banks do ask the brokers to get certain traders kicked of the
platform or not to get executed against those clients.
You will ONLY have true anonymity and "hard" bids and offers (executable at all times when the orders are in the book) on FXMarketspace like you have with futures.
As an ex-bank trader on EBS and Reuters , I now trade currency futures....
  • #111
  • Apr 25, 2007 4:13am Apr 25, 2007 4:13am
i hear you Mr. Lang. the problem is with futures you cannot trade the way the poster wants to trade. people spend a small fortune every month to be able to trade numbers on Futures. our multiple liquidity providers are the inefficiency we need in forex to make funds.
i would like to know some of your tech systems used in futures. and i would agree that if i only traded technically i would definately be on futures right now.
it was noted earlier in this thread about a "second look". currenex employs this as a risk prevention measure for sell side only. it's funny how they can use that as they please. they accept the order that is 250 pips off market but they decline the order that is 0 pips off market because of volatility. i understand we can't have our cake and eat it too, but this is a display of unfair treatment.
i know how brokers work and if we all came to ODL explaining what they did wrong it is possible they would reimburse zek his off market trade. they see what negative publicity does to them. when i traded ODL a year ago and they treated me absolutley horribly i was called several times by my IB and ODL to say this is not their fault. they knew i was very upset with them for not executing after what i'd been promised and they made every effort to call me and email me to calm me down to avoid negative face time. believe me if they read this thread they will offer your money back to your account.
and i would definately threaten NFA/CFTC action ASAP. if anyone wants to argue with me....I trade numbers with advanced software and even if i send market orders my orders are sometimes cancelled by banks taking a second look at my orders. it's not fair that they should accept 250 pips of slippage in their favor but deny 10 pips in our favor.
i do believe this is a real issue so the people doubting that, please leave. your negativity is needed elsewhere.
It really is that easy.
  • #112
  • Apr 25, 2007 6:10am Apr 25, 2007 6:10am
Quoting THE FxORCE
believe me if they read this thread they will offer your money back to your account.
I think zek132 allready spoke with ODL CEO and he was aware of this, as i remember from a previous post
"Abandon all hope, you who enter here" La Divina Commedia, Dante Alighieri
  • #113
  • Apr 25, 2007 6:41am Apr 25, 2007 6:41am
Hey FxORCE,

I'm not sure what you mean when you say : "the problem is with futures you cannot trade the way the poster wants to trade. people spend a small fortune every month to be able to trade numbers on Futures"

I know a guy who does, he uses nothing else but an auto-clicker. It's true that you are unlikely to get in at a pre-spike price, but the aim of my trading, is not to do a quick trade on the spike, it try to trade the consequent move, and it's usually much bigger then the initial tick.

Best regards,

Vlad
  • #114
  • Apr 25, 2007 11:03am Apr 25, 2007 11:03am
Quoting THE FxORCE
i hear you Mr. Lang. the problem is with futures you cannot trade the way the poster wants to trade. people spend a small fortune every month to be able to trade numbers on Futures. our multiple liquidity providers are the inefficiency we need in forex to make funds.
i would like to know some of your tech systems used in futures. and i would agree that if i only traded technically i would definately be on futures right now.
it was noted earlier in this thread about a "second look". currenex employs this as a risk prevention measure for sell side only. it's funny how they can use that as they please. they accept the order that is 250 pips off market but they decline the order that is 0 pips off market because of volatility. i understand we can't have our cake and eat it too, but this is a display of unfair treatment.
i know how brokers work and if we all came to ODL explaining what they did wrong it is possible they would reimburse zek his off market trade. they see what negative publicity does to them. when i traded ODL a year ago and they treated me absolutley horribly i was called several times by my IB and ODL to say this is not their fault. they knew i was very upset with them for not executing after what i'd been promised and they made every effort to call me and email me to calm me down to avoid negative face time. believe me if they read this thread they will offer your money back to your account.
and i would definately threaten NFA/CFTC action ASAP. if anyone wants to argue with me....I trade numbers with advanced software and even if i send market orders my orders are sometimes cancelled by banks taking a second look at my orders. it's not fair that they should accept 250 pips of slippage in their favor but deny 10 pips in our favor.
i do believe this is a real issue so the people doubting that, please leave. your negativity is needed elsewhere.

We, bank traders ,used to call retail forex (including currenex,hotspot,etc...) the wild west :0)
Banks will fill you ONLY when it suits them so you are trading at much higher spreads than the displayed ones. Remember they are market makers and want to keep their order book balanced at all times. You are trading with a handicap.
Only FXMarketspace wil be a complete level playing field for ALL, liquidity providers and liquidity takers.
FXCM even widens the spread on their currenex outfit and still claim they offer interbank spreads. :0)
Stick with futures, the slippage you will have with futures is natural not because some banks decide they don't want to fill your order immediately.
I have done the test by sending orders at the same time to futures and currenex,hotspot with 100 lot orders for the EUR/USD and on average I had the best fills on futures , on average 2.5 pips better
  • #115
  • Apr 26, 2007 10:31am Apr 26, 2007 10:31am
i greatly appreciate your insight but you are just barely missing my point because i did not explain well.
we are relying on inefficiencies in the forex platforms. futures does not have inefficiencies. every tick is accounted for.
actually i apologize; you stated what our intentions are in your post. we are trying to get that first tick cause it's very high percentage move. you are playing the retrace and then the remaining move. well sometimes the first tick is bigger and sometimes the aftermath is bigger. just depends.
i would like to know what your friend's fills are using the autoclick. if they are only a few pips worse than pre prices and he's going in with a few mio then i will move to futures tomorrow. futures are way better than forex spreads even where i'm at. i'm on a big currenex hub so i never see more than 1 pip eurusd except at numbers and then 3 pips is outlandish. something everyone here needs to understand is that liquidity is provided by someone during numbers. no bank supplies this liquidity. it is chop shops that have created software to scalp numbers and they end up on top somehow.
could you tell me where exactly the liquidity will come for reuter's FXMarketplace? is it all internally matched? if so that means banks will be running algos to bring people into the market as well as chop shops and hedge funds. sure prices will be tighter but i truly think it's just more evolved than our forex platforms. it's what is to come for forex traders. i'm sure EBS is just as tight and liquid.
your thoughts?
and thank you for taking the time to enlighten me/us.
It really is that easy.
  • #116
  • Edited 12:34pm Apr 26, 2007 12:21pm | Edited 12:34pm
Sorry, I overlooked your point, was just trying to make my point.

Currenex,hotspot,etc.... DON'T like traders taking advantage of the inefficiencies of the platforms when there is not enough liquidity at the other side of your trade; lagging quotes due to slow updating, off-market quotes,etc....
Fimat, one of the prime brokers for currenex was know to welcome a lot of
automated systems which banks HATE, after a lot of banks left Fimat because of those automated systems, Fimat changed policies and now is
very strict for automated systems taking advantage of "stale" quotes like they call it.
As long there is matching liquidity at the other side of your trade (banks make money of the spread and don't want to hold a net position), you are welcome to trade those inefficiencies.

Banks have at all times an eye on the order flow and if your trade doesn't debalance the equilibrum between buy and sell orders, they will accept your order, if it does debalance the order book, you will have to wait till it fits causing the delays.
Banks want to make money with the lowest risk possible, matching buyers and sellers for the spread and orders they cannot offset immediately, have delays in execution.
During news, banks pull most of their liquidity ; the more volatile the markets, the less liquidity will be available. We, as traders, need especially
during those times liquidity the most.
You would be surprised how much automated systems and so called sniper traders haven been kicked of those platforms.
The average trade done on currenex by the banks is ONLY 1.6 million despite the fact that most banks quote minimum 5 to 10 million on currenex, if banks get hit by big trades, they break down that big order and execute it in parts if that suits them best. That's why currenex has the slice order function to execute bigger trades in smaller parts.
Even on EBS is the average trade only 2 million.


On FXmarketspace orders are internally matched just like with futures
You can read more about FXmarketspace > see attachement.
For the moment it is only available through prime brokers, you will need
some patience before you can trade on FXmarketspace just like you can
trade on currenex now through a second tier brokerage like ODL,Capitalforexpro,etc.....

Hope things are clearer now
Attached File(s)
File Type: pdf fxms_launch.pdf   116 KB | 590 downloads
  • #117
  • Apr 26, 2007 12:21pm Apr 26, 2007 12:21pm
FxFORCE,

I totally understand you inefficiecies theory, however, as i've said previously, that's not how i'm trying to trade. You will find that if you trade on Currenex, you are not very likely to get in close to the pre-release price, because banks are not stupid, and auto-click services simply are not fast enough.
It's true that often, news reports are only good for that quick spike, that is why I do not trade every report, and that is why i do not trade small deviations. As a rule of thumb, big report + big deviation will more often then not provide great trading opportunities.

A friend of mine who started to trade futures, does use auto-click, and so far he's trading 500k at a time, or so, he;s still testing, i'll be joining him soon...

Back to ODL, initially i was on their "Retail" currenex, It looked fishy straight away, unlike with my other broker, ODL "Retail" had only 2 bids/offers (as opposed to 10-15), and we were able to get in, more or less before the spike. After a few profitable trades they've given me an "institutional" currenex account. Bids/Offers looked completely different, back to 10+.

This makes me suspect that ODL Retail, is Bucketshop on Currenex, this is just speculation though.

Best regards,

Vlad Zapletin
  • #118
  • Apr 26, 2007 12:37pm Apr 26, 2007 12:37pm
If you want to trade the news with futures, why trade FX-contracts? With the exception of EuroFX and Yen liquidity is dire, especially if you want to trade several mils a click like a poster above. Have you ever looked into bond or interest-rate contracts? Im doing the odd trade in the Euro-Bund, liquidity in those contracts is just another world. Im not a newstrader, but i bet you would get much better executions there then in FX-futures. Just doesnt make much sense to me to choose a future-market with mediocre liquidity for news-trading.
  • #119
  • Apr 26, 2007 12:48pm Apr 26, 2007 12:48pm
Yes, i will also be trading Bond, t10 for the us, liquidity is HUGE!!!! hundreds of millions...
  • #120
  • Apr 26, 2007 2:18pm Apr 26, 2007 2:18pm
For any who doubt the story, I had someone with the wherewithal "make inquiries" at ODL--and the feedback I get is that the story as related in this thread is true and accurate.

WillLang: thanks for your input. I've always been aware of the "wimp" mentality of banks (what they REALLY want is to get the money without having to work for it---GEEZ, I hate banks and bankers!).

I'm really excited about the prospects of FXMarketSpace. I've heard from some hopeful second-tier broker friends that they may be up and running for "retail" size in 2-3 months.
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