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(can) small accounts make a living ?!

  • #441
  • Jun 9, 2009 5:34pm Jun 9, 2009 5:34pm
Quoting pnf-trader

What I wanted to show is, even with small accounts you can make a living by trading. Start small, learn the rules of the market and stay focused.

You showed nothing, dream on!!
  • #442
  • Jun 9, 2009 5:41pm Jun 9, 2009 5:41pm
forgot to mention pnf-trader. Point and figure trading in forex means nothing. I tested this on forex tick data. I admit the graphs look good, means nothing in real trading
  • #443
  • Jun 9, 2009 5:59pm Jun 9, 2009 5:59pm
Quoting spekkiefx
forgot to mention pnf-trader. Point and figure trading in forex means nothing. I tested this on forex tick data. I admit the graphs look good, means nothing in real trading
Because it doesn't work for you, does mean what? Nothing.
P&F as is, is only a different type of chart. It's like as if you were saying "candlesticks don't work. Have tried it on 5min bars. Looks nice but it means nothing in real trading." - get the point? But don't want to start a discussion about p&f charts here.

I have posted some examples of traders that started out small and made it to successful fulltime traders, and I described my plan of becoming a successful trade with some motivational words. And what, beside some stupid comments, did you contribute to this thread?
  • #444
  • Jun 9, 2009 6:05pm Jun 9, 2009 6:05pm
Quoting pnf-trader
And what, beside some stupid comments, did you contribute to this thread?
No I haven't contributed. But let me contribute this. I have coded the "common" P&F rules on different TF. I run this on my tick by tick database. And guess what nothing!!
  • #445
  • Jun 9, 2009 6:23pm Jun 9, 2009 6:23pm
Quoting spekkiefx
No I haven't contributed. But let me contribute this. I have coded the "common" P&F rules on different TF. I run this on my tick by tick database. And guess what nothing!!
Oh, I see. The almighty tick data. So all my profits so far were pure luck, right?

Tick data may be useful if you backtest scalping algorithms. But I don't see that tick data brings any advantage for every trading method/system. Some traders. for example, are using moving averages in 5 minute charts profitably. If you take your tick data now and proove to those traders that their method cannot work, do you think they would mind your arguments?

I don't know why you use this thread to argue against p&f charts and not a p&f related thread, but you must have your reasons.

I am realy sorry to disrupt this great thread - it wasn't my intention. But I cannot say nothing to so much ignorance. Will be my last reply to this, though.
  • #446
  • Edited 6:43pm Jun 9, 2009 6:29pm | Edited 6:43pm
Quoting pnf-trader

I don't know why you use this thread to argue against p&f charts and not a p&f related thread, but you must have your reasons.
R u talking about your small account profit?

Don't take it personal, I was having a go at the charts not you!

Tick data does not lie, P&F charts do!!
  • #447
  • Jun 9, 2009 7:06pm Jun 9, 2009 7:06pm
What I wanted to show is, even with small accounts you can make a living by trading. Start small, learn the rules of the market and stay focused.[/quote]

I've had small accounts for years. I build them up, take money out, and meet the challenge of building them up again. By small I mean $100 in a micro account, get it up to $2000, pull out $1800 and start over. Sometime it takes two to three months to build an account, the last time the $100 went to $49 and now it is at $1700. I've blown up a few but never quit, just make a deposit. Your right about discipline, this is no business for a monkey brain. I've been trading live since 2004 and like you I've read every book, looked at every system and paid a lot of dues. Like you said, it takes knowledge (lots of it), wisdom (how to put the knowlege into practice) and discipline (the ability to be consistent in implementing your trading stratege every day). Best of luck!http://www.forexfactory.com/images/icons/icon14.gif
  • #448
  • Jun 9, 2009 8:11pm Jun 9, 2009 8:11pm
PNF, 99% of the stuff you traders believe in DOES NOT WORK, although you might attribute your profits to PNF charts, ever consider you just know how to trade and viewing the market on PNF just works for you kinda.

Candle Sticks DO NOT WORK!!!
Fib Lines DO NOT WORK.

About the only thing I've tested to work is SMA's and Envelopes with fixed % ranges, and yes there not perfect ofcourse.

Hey I wish I could find more, but really not interested in meaningless lines to make me feel happy, test with a accuracy above 50% or don't bother.
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
  • #449
  • Jun 9, 2009 8:15pm Jun 9, 2009 8:15pm
ASYI, even consider leaving $1000 in then running that to x's so $20,000 or do you get too emotional / scared playing with those kinda numbers ??

$49 to $1700 is nice work by the way.

I plan a 10K account Max Size, so weekly anything over 10K goes to my bank account then under my bed where it's nice and safe Sadly I'm a long long long way off this dream
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
  • #450
  • Jun 10, 2009 4:07am Jun 10, 2009 4:07am
Quoting Turveyd
PNF, 99% of the stuff you traders believe in DOES NOT WORK, although you might attribute your profits to PNF charts, ever consider you just know how to trade and viewing the market on PNF just works for you kinda.

Candle Sticks DO NOT WORK!!!
Fib Lines DO NOT WORK.

About the only thing I've tested to work is SMA's and Envelopes with fixed % ranges, and yes there not perfect ofcourse.

Hey I wish I could find more, but really not interested in meaningless lines to make me feel happy, test with a accuracy above 50% or don't bother.
A lot of different methods do work, it's the people using htem that don't.

I'm sure using FIbs would be fine so long as you cut the crap ones quickly and then took 4 - 5 times the profit on the winners compared to the losers.
  • #451
  • Jun 10, 2009 6:42pm Jun 10, 2009 6:42pm
Quoting foredog
A lot of different methods do work, it's the people using htem that don't.

I'm sure using FIbs would be fine so long as you cut the crap ones quickly and then took 4 - 5 times the profit on the winners compared to the losers.

The method that you proved works there is maintaining a larger ratio of winning trade size to losing trade size (most people would say letting winners run but in some cases it's not necessarily trying to milk it to the last drop with trailing stops, just a matter of choosing sufficiently large targets that are still high enough probability to be hit before if/when the stop is hit).

Fibs are just one of the tools... I find a lot of people who use fibs, Murrey maths lines, daily pivots, round numbers, etc. are actually just giving themselves an edge from the fact that they have certain levels in mind for targets, entries and stops rather than choosing random prices. It's arguable that some of these price levels hold water with the market (self-fulfilling) but overall I think it's the fact that these traders (meaning the ones who use these tools and use them well) are actually just constantly finding good winning trade size vs losing trade size by using these areas as entries and exits.

I think it's a little hard to objectively categorize what tools "work" and which ones "don't work" (tools meaning things like chart types, fibs, etc). As foredog points out in his own example, many people successfully use fibs -- but objectively, that doesn't mean they either do or don't "work" in and of themselves, it just means traders like foredog know how to cut losses quickly and let winners run systematically by using these areas.

Making blanket statements by saying any of these tools completely "don't work" is a bit closed-minded and not looking at the whole picture. Trading isn't about entering trades and just sitting back till the market hands you a prize for picking a good entry, it's about managing that trade so you get out at a smaller loss than your average winner. (This doesn't even have to mean your stops are always smaller than your targets, I've known some scalpers in person who did very well simply because their sheer volume of winners largely overshadowed their losers even with a 1:2 reward to risk ratio on their stops -- the key is that their average winning DAY was still bigger than their average losing DAY and they always knew when to stop if they were on a losing streak that day especially with such a high advantage on per-trade odds. Not recommending anyone try to trade this way off the bat, but just some food for thought and if you can pull it off, it works very well).
  • #452
  • Jun 10, 2009 6:46pm Jun 10, 2009 6:46pm
Quoting foredog
I'm sure using FIbs would be fine so long as you cut the crap ones quickly and then took 4 - 5 times the profit on the winners compared to the losers.
Yep thats the same as any trade even trades picked at random though, easy to say hard to do !!

If Fib's give someone the confidence to get in, and they get out on the first sign of trouble and take 5x's the profit, then great, you can do exactly the same off some computer randomly generated lines with equal results.
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
  • #453
  • Jun 10, 2009 8:14pm Jun 10, 2009 8:14pm
Its not hard to make money in forex market unless you are not greedy. I wait for the 3EST If I see GBP/USD going up or down I Just open a 100k lot wait for 10 pips which take some time few seconds or min. And I m done for the day. So every night I make 100$ and I am happy with it. Think about people who works at Mcdonalds, gas station, 711. They need to work 10 to 12 hours to make 100$.
  • #454
  • Jun 11, 2009 6:26am Jun 11, 2009 6:26am
Quoting intrepid1
Its not hard to make money in forex market unless you are not greedy. I wait for the 3EST If I see GBP/USD going up or down I Just open a 100k lot wait for 10 pips which take some time few seconds or min. And I m done for the day. So every night I make 100$ and I am happy with it. Think about people who works at Mcdonalds, gas station, 711. They need to work 10 to 12 hours to make 100$.

For Average 10mins per day of work if you rarely take a loss, that would do me nicely!!

Don't tell the Mcdonalds or other staff this where would we spend our pips if they knew that!!
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
  • #455
  • Jun 13, 2009 5:18am Jun 13, 2009 5:18am
Quoting H. Rearden
Where I would apply rigidity, is in my money management. I have mentioned earlier how important it is to control risk - and rigidity in this context means there is no compromise on my downside.
H. Rearden
Dear H. Rearden!

In Your statement on march 27: 10.10 a.m. You bought EurJpy and it went against You.
10.12 a.m. You added to Your position, but it kept going against You.
10.16 a.m. You were down about 70p on Your first pos. and and down about 30p on the second. That looks more than Your daily 400 risk limit, and You added one more position?
Why?
Or what am I missing?

Regards,
M. Poirot
  • #456
  • Edited 2:34am Jun 15, 2009 2:19am | Edited 2:34am
Quoting M. Poirot
Dear H. Rearden!

In Your statement on march 27: 10.10 a.m. You bought EurJpy and it went against You.
10.12 a.m. You added to Your position, but it kept going against You.
10.16 a.m. You were down about 70p on Your first pos. and and down about 30p on the second. That looks more than Your daily 400 risk limit, and You added one more position?
Why?
Or what am I missing?

Regards,
M. Poirot
Good day, M. Poirot -

Yes, you are correct with the facts that this position was slightly higher leveraged than average. You might have also noticed that it happened on the 27th of the month and as far as I recall, the floating P&L for the period in question was already at approx. +10%. So if my daily risk limit of 4% was exceeded, it certainly did not worry me.

I believe someone else asked a similar question regarding the block of positions and my answer might have been that with experience comes more sophisticated risk taking in terms of knowing when you can stretch the rules a little bit in order to get more out of a trade, or in this case, to turn a bad trade around.

As you can see from the total monthly result, we ended up +13%.

I hope this answers your question.

H. Rearden
  • #457
  • Jun 15, 2009 10:08am Jun 15, 2009 10:08am
Thank You, for Your answer. So, it is basicly "the market's money" philosophy.
Regards,
M. Poirot
  • #458
  • Jun 15, 2009 3:17pm Jun 15, 2009 3:17pm
I hope some of you are old enough to remember seargent Friday, an old detective series of the San Francisco police. It started like: "There is a million stories in the naked city."
Sorry guys I got carried away, but I am an old dog who in a late stage in his life started forex less than a year, living ago in Canada. They wouldn't let me trade in Canada because of my age so I trade in the States. on a
$2500US account of which I still have 2300. So I am probably the guy you talk to. My burning question is, how much of a degree do you have to have in economics to be a professional trader?
Regards Csanyi
  • #459
  • Jun 15, 2009 4:25pm Jun 15, 2009 4:25pm
Quoting csanyi
My burning question is, how much of a degree do you have to have in economics to be a professional trader?
Regards Csanyi
Honestly, zero. Trading based on economics is for people who hold trades for months and years. Its also for armchair traders and TV commentators, who like to tell you after the fact why the market moved the way it did. So amusing. Intraday and swing trading has everything to do with price action. I've been perusing forums such as there for ten years plus now, and am so amused to see folks still convincing themselves that the market has to move this way or that because of such and such statistics, reports, or hearsay. Phooey. Then these very same folks are shocked when price breaks a level and continues to another until exhausted, completely defying their "logic".
There's always money in the banana stand.
  • #460
  • Jun 15, 2009 7:33pm Jun 15, 2009 7:33pm
Quoting csanyi
My burning question is, how much of a degree do you have to have in economics to be a professional trader?
Regards Csanyi

if u work 4 a bank or financial institution, then they may emphasize on your economic knowledge. pertaining 2 which currency the economic news has impact on. n u will be regard as a pro trader as long as u work 4 the above mentioned institutions. that's just the concensus on the street. because people will think that u must b good in order 2 trade 4 them.

on the retail trader side, just a bit of economic knowledge is ok imho. because not every price fluctuations r based on economic conditions. an international company may decide 2 convert billions of u.s dollars into another countries currency 4 operation purposes. the reason may not be economically pushed, just normal company dealings. but due 2 the huge volumne involved. the currency involved will move, unless it's respective central banks step in.

4 us retail traders, if u trade fx 4 a living. u r considered a pro trader. it's also much simpler 2 operate. buy if it goes up n sell if it goes down. stay away from major economic news releashes. no bosses 2 answer 2, that's the best. trade any way u like. except 4 no hedging n u gotta find a good n honest broker who can let u trade the way u want. thanks
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