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250 pips slippage on Currenex - ODL Securities

  • #41
  • Apr 15, 2007 8:54pm Apr 15, 2007 8:54pm
Wow!

Thats not good to here that it doesn't work. I hope it has some kind of guarantee on it.

DAMn!
and im really sorry for what happened to you and hope it can get solved.
That's definetely not fair on any level

Good luck
  • #42
  • Edited 9:25pm Apr 15, 2007 9:16pm | Edited 9:25pm
What happened to the PMs and 2 posts I wrote today?

EDIT: Okay, I see there was a trojan attack that removed the posts. Oh well, I was just saying hey to Trace and updating him on what I'm up to. It was too long to rewrite, so that's that!
  • #43
  • Apr 15, 2007 9:25pm Apr 15, 2007 9:25pm
Hey Sympatico,

FF got hacked. If you log in and click on "new posts" there is an announcement at the top explaining it...they rolled back the servers so all the posts after a certain time got deleted.

Hope that helps,
Nathan
  • #44
  • Apr 15, 2007 10:51pm Apr 15, 2007 10:51pm
I had some very similar thing as to the event you mentioned a few months ago, and I've kept the screen capture, I had a buying entry order with stop loss, and another selling order below certain price with a trailing stop, apprently the market suddenly plunged and instantly took out my buying order and hit the stop (instant lost) then my sell order was activated, although the price keep plunging, I had the trailing stop on it, but somehow that order was also closed with a $0 profit, (although for this to have happened, it must in that minute fall, hit and activate my trailing stop, then rise back up again, and hit the stop, but clearly that did not happened in the few minutes of that trade) I wrote an email asking for a written reply regarding the order details, kept getting an email back that I should ring instead, I haven't proceed further with the matter yet.. so yeah, if you had a stop loss on your order, I guess it will be taken straight out! (Instant Loss)

the company I use have the usual problems too, never fill your market order with the better price if the price goes in your favour, and always fill your order when it goes against you at your original price, freezes on busy times, slippage all the time even if you just try to close the trade, had a time where I was told "there is currently no price to trade" (I should've taken a screen capture) although they loudly advertise that you will always be able to trade even at the busiest time! Many times your entry order will appear to be processing, you cannot cancel it, and you don't know if it's gone through until 10-20 minutes, sometimes it will just lock up your opened trade, although you closed it, I had screen capture where this happened, I tried to close the trade, it locks my position, and not until almost 30 minutes later it closes it, at the new price! I've lost > $1000 with all these kind of problems, so I wish you have luck going further with your case, definately will be waiting to hear back how you go with your case! wish you all the luck!
  • #45
  • Apr 15, 2007 10:57pm Apr 15, 2007 10:57pm
Quoting Don4
I know this has nothing to do with ODL but check out these huge spikes on EFX feed, maybe around the same time of your mystery fill. They amazingly disapeared a little later. Check the times. This is for Eur/Usd and Gbp/Usd but still seems a little weird . I dont know if it affected any of there clients though.

http://www.forexfactory.com/attachme...1&d=1176687219

yeah apparently I see these spikes (the one similar to your EUR chart) every so often, all the time they will just disappear after you reload the chart in half an hour, I always wonder if these spikes will affect the price that brokers feed out?
  • #46
  • Edited 1:35am Apr 16, 2007 12:08am | Edited 1:35am
I'm sure you guys have been missing me.. LOL

This is the first time have come across this thread but because of the possible legal nature in this trade I'm going to have to keep quite for now.

I will say at this moment my side was canceled and if the other side wasn't that is just plane robbery because then you can question every other transaction ever placed.

Now as far as the mkt never being there I have discussed this, put up screen shots, of showing how this is possible and I did have a limit or to sell at the price mentioned.

Well that all I can say for now. I do hope to get my pips back.

Just for the recorded so far YTD I have probably have had over 4k pips taken back you don't even want to know what that comes out to in $ and cents...
  • #47
  • Edited Aug 25, 2007 3:49am Apr 16, 2007 12:18am | Edited Aug 25, 2007 3:49am
Quoting zek132
I would like to point out something else to you, in regards to why i think trades off the market should all be busted. Imagine you have a stop loss order 50 pips away from the current price for example, and for whatever reason liquidity is pulled and someone decides to buy/sells, and your order is taken out. Would you still insist that the trade is valid?

May be i'm missing something, please tell me what you think.
The short answer is yes, I would still consider it a valid trade. To understand why, we have to examine some of the mechanics of currenex and how they relate to the structure of the Forex market as a whole.

 As I pointed out earlier, when you’re trading on Currenex, you ARE the market. The complication comes in that Forex is a decentralized marketplace. Superficially we all consider EBS to be THE interbank market, but it really is no more valid an exchange then Currenex, FXall, Hotspot, or Reuters. All of these networks collectively constitute the interbank market and consequently the complete Forex market. EBS is just one spoke in that wheel.

 The thing that ties them all together is arbitrage. When a bank is providing you a bid on currenex it’s because he sees an opportunity to sell on EBS at a better price. Another bank is offering on EBS because he sees an opportunity to buy on Reuters for a profit. In this way all the submarkets are kept approximately in line with each other, but they will all be definitively unique at any given point in time. If there weren’t these opportunities for intermarket arbitrage, the Forex market would probably be 1/10th the size it is today. The reason for this is that there are no true market makers on the interbank.

 That is an important distinction that separates the Forex market from say an equity exchange. On the NYSE for example, each stock has a specialist who is responsible for providing a bid and an offer at all times. In fact they are federally obligated to do so. But in Forex, nobody is required to provide you a market. Ever! The liquidity you see on Currenex or EBS is solely at the whim of the participants in the market to transact. If tomorrow morning every bank in the world decided that they didn’t want to participate in foreign exchange, they could permanently pull their all orders and there isn’t an effin thing anyone can do about it.

 Of course that isn’t a realistic possibility, but it highlights the point of the problem were discussing. During news events there is a substantial risk of loss to any bank providing a market. Thankfully there are also substantial opportunities for profit or the market would seize up during the event. But you have to understand that it is solely this opportunity for profit that compels a bank to bid when everyone and their brother wants to sell. If they don’t see an opportunity to profit, then guess what; no bid will be forthcoming. The bank isn’t screwing you when they decide not to buy, their just refusing to be screwed.

 So knowing all this, how does it end up with you sitting on an unexpected $26k loss? For that we have to tie it all back to order mechanics.

When a bank is under no obligation to buy, has no desire to buy, and yet you still want to sell, you have to be willing to accept the next best bid. That bid may be 2 pips away or 200 or 2000. The question is, how badly do you want to sell? Using a market order you’re in effect saying I don’t gave a crap what the bid is, just fill my sell order now! In all honesty, you received exactly what you asked for. You may not have known that you would be filled so far away, but that doesn’t alter the fact that you received what you wanted.

 This is all common knowledge (or at least it should be) but it still doesn’t explain why you were filled at a rate so dramatically different from what was seen on EBS. The simple truth is that each submarket will have different levels of open interest in the book. On EBS there must have been substantial existing orders to sell at 1.5375. On Reuters there may have been orders at 1.5390. On FXall they may have been at 1.5360. None of these price levels was the “true” or “real” peak of the move because as I pointed out earlier, they were all equally valid. Currenex probably had orders in this area as well, but not in sufficient size to consume all of the buy interest that you and all the other market participants needed.

And that’s the real crux of your problem. If and when there is more interest to buy at a given price point then there is open sell interest to sate it, the offer moves to the next available block of open sell interest. In your case that sell interest was located at 1.5661. The broker didn’t move your fill there and neither did the banks. That just happened to be where enough open interest existed to cover your “fill me at any price now” order. And because currenex is just as valid a component of the interbank market as EBS, Reuters, or FXall, your fill was valid.

So yes, even when a stop order (which is nothing more than a market order that executes when price reaches a certain point) that I put in is filled 100+ points below the lowest point shown on EBS, I would still have the same opinion about its validity. I most certainly will do my best to get that fill reversed, but if at the end of the day my counterparty says no, then that’s what I have to live with. Its part of the risk I assumed when I chose to participate on the interbank.

However, I want to point out again that this is not the same thing as what is potentially going on at ODL. ODL is potentially telling your counterparty that they have decided to reverse the trade and are pocketing your money. In my mind that’s just plain BS. I can accept my loss, but my loss better damn well go to the guy who earned it through placing his order in the market. ODL didn’t fill you (and save you from taking a potentially larger loss), the guy who had his sell order at 1.5661 did. Either he should get your money or it should be given back to you. Anyone else getting those funds constitutes outright theft.
  • #48
  • Apr 16, 2007 12:59am Apr 16, 2007 12:59am
Quoting johnedoe
took a look at the NFA page and came up with this.......I was considering opening an account with ODL ,,,,, now I'm not too sure.
http://www.nfa.futures.org/basicnet/...06&contrib=NFA
Well not counting the problem at hand and only going off what the NFA has above.

You might want to double check all your brokers... LOL
Maybe you haven't noticed but the NFA is on a major FX Crack Down/Clean Up.

But in my option the NFA is a joke when they do something about RefcoFX then we'll have something to talk about.

example: every fcm must submit there sites and all material to the NFA for them to see but the NFA never give approval only "oks it"

If you check out the fines that fxcm and gain (forex.com) have gotten is just make the NFA another silly government agency doing nothing but trying to look like it doing something.
Such things like $0.00 commission, guaranteed no slippage just didn't pop up on forex.com or fxcm yesterday they been on their sites and every other broker since fx went retail and where taking close to 10years ago and the NFA is just now getting to it give me a break...
  • #49
  • Edited Apr 17, 2007 1:00am Apr 16, 2007 1:19am | Edited Apr 17, 2007 1:00am
Quoting zek132
P.S I've talked to my other broker (ADM) and they have said that such a deal should be busted. And also another broker i've talked to has informed me that thier clients who got filled at 1.5435, after a talk to the banks, had their fills changed to 1.5400. However ODL refused to talk to the banks on my behalf, which makes me even more anxious,
just for the recored I was was also filled at 1.5435 and 1.5421. both of these where canceled as well

My limit on the trade was sitting at 1.5440
  • #50
  • Apr 16, 2007 1:27am Apr 16, 2007 1:27am
Quoting Monaco
I think Capitalforexpro are a more transparent broker for the Currenex platform than ODL. I have met with the guy who runs the institutional side of the business and he is very open about who are all their counterparties and the order flow process. May be worth contacting them and ask if their clients had similiar problems with off market fills.
On Currenex the FXtrades are all linked I know this cause ghostpipper was a victim of mine a few weeks ago and hes not on ODL but using some other broker to access Currenex. In this case his broker busted his trade and ODL as well did mine. Not that I was happy about it because like Dark as detailedly pointed out it was then and is now a fair trade. and that why I don't use mkt orders.
  • #51
  • Edited 2:14am Apr 16, 2007 1:39am | Edited 2:14am
Quoting J12etnies
Hey ZEK,

If im not mistaken isn't there an option on currenex called esp protection alert that solves the slippage problem. If it moves certain pips or if it takes to long to click it will advise you. And you can then either cancel or place the order.
Let me know if you were using that and if im correct.
As of right now im studying how currenex works. It is definetely very complex

Hopefully that is an option
ESP only works if your manually clicking the button I have feeling in all my off mkt fills the person on the other side was using one of the many auto news clickers (rss, muse, secret weapon)

I sure a lot of readers are saying emmm now it starting to make a little more sence well the bad fills that is... LOL
  • #52
  • Edited 2:42am Apr 16, 2007 2:33am | Edited 2:42am
Quoting Darkstar
The short answer is yes, I would still consider it a valid trade. To understand why, we have to examine some of the mechanics of currenex and how they relate to the structure of the Forex market as a whole...
I don't print many posts. I did it with this one.
  • #53
  • Apr 16, 2007 2:43am Apr 16, 2007 2:43am
you sugest to use stop/limit orders to don't get caught in such trades
"Abandon all hope, you who enter here" La Divina Commedia, Dante Alighieri
  • #54
  • Apr 16, 2007 2:51am Apr 16, 2007 2:51am
Quoting semar
you sugest to use stop/limit orders to don't get caught in such trades
The problem is more with trying to place a MKT order the exact second the news release is coming out.
  • #55
  • Apr 16, 2007 6:38am Apr 16, 2007 6:38am
Turbo, what was the size on 1.5435 which they busted you ?
I got filled at ODL at this level.....

thanks
PP

Quoting turbokaos
just for the recored I was was also filled at 1.5435 and 1.5440. both of these where canceled as well

My limit on the trade was sitting at 1.5440
  • #56
  • Apr 16, 2007 8:14am Apr 16, 2007 8:14am
Quoting Peter Pan
Turbo, what was the size on 1.5435 which they busted you ?
I got filled at ODL at this level.....

thanks
PP
I had a limit at that price for my sell 5661. I think you got hit there as a sell
  • #57
  • Edited 5:15pm Apr 16, 2007 12:57pm | Edited 5:15pm
Quoting Darkstar
The short answer is yes, I would still consider it a valid trade. To understand why, we have to examine some of the mechanics of currenex and how they relate to the structure of the Forex market as a whole...
Okay fair enough. But using limit/stop orders have the exact same potential problem: getting filled at the next best price once the server carrying your order initiates a market order to satisfy your price point. Perhaps it's very slightly less delayed because it only has one trip after market order initiating rather than the two (client platform to server + server to market).

Also, your explanation does not explain "spikes" and "reversals", which should either not exist or should be considered valid...
  • #58
  • Apr 16, 2007 5:15pm Apr 16, 2007 5:15pm
Quoting Sympatico
Also, your explanation does not explain "spikes" and "reversals", which should either not exist or should be considered valid...
I have no idea what you mean.
  • #59
  • Apr 16, 2007 5:20pm Apr 16, 2007 5:20pm
Well, all i have to say is that i'm now moving into the futures market. I just don't want to deal with this forex b/s anymore. I might open a small account with some retail broker to do a trade every now and then.

Turbo is keeping his order, although that only happened after he spoke to ODL directly.

Also, just so you know, people from ODL have read this post.

Make up your own mind.

Best regards......
  • #60
  • Apr 16, 2007 8:49pm Apr 16, 2007 8:49pm
Quoting zek132
Well, all i have to say is that i'm now moving into the futures market. I just don't want to deal with this forex b/s anymore. I might open a small account with some retail broker to do a trade every now and then.
Simple solution: trade CME futures. Regulated market, no BS. Same price dynamics as the spot market.
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