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250 pips slippage on Currenex - ODL Securities

  • #21
  • Apr 14, 2007 12:03pm Apr 14, 2007 12:03pm
well you've peaked my interest. keep us updated, if you match these tickets with someone who got their trade cancelled, it's going to be a huge ordeal.

btw, you were trading 10 lots, right?
Relax and be happy.
  • #22
  • Apr 14, 2007 12:41pm Apr 14, 2007 12:41pm
I was trading 2 mil, part of the order got filled at 1.5435 and then rest at 1.5661. ODL have also told me that I was "lucky" as someone got filled at 1.6000 which is close to 600 pips slippage. I hope they were joking.
  • #23
  • Apr 14, 2007 1:48pm Apr 14, 2007 1:48pm
Quoting Sympatico
Is it not challenge enough to beat the market consistently? How can individuals - that don't have an army of lawyers on retainer - hope to navigate through all of these hidden land-mines?
Hey Symp, glad to see you are still alive and kicking. You are exactly right. Its hard enough to make money "fairly" w/o all the hidden traps these jokers set. Thats why right now I'm really down on spot fx. I don't have these issues trading index futures at all.

Good to see you.
Trace
TraceJ
  • #24
  • Apr 14, 2007 1:54pm Apr 14, 2007 1:54pm
Quoting Darkstar
I actually trade with odl on currenex myself. I have had MANY off market fills like this and ODL has taken my profit away on all but one of them. It's kinda bullshit that they do it and the reason I posted the link to Turbos post was so that Zek WOULD do something about it. They should either honor the market mechanics or they shouldn't. This willy-nilly, screw both parties is rediculous.

Zek, you should hit up Turbo for his trade ticket info and see if they match (if you want to cc me on both of them, so I have them in the event I ever find myself in your position, it would be appreciated as well ). If the tickets match and they still refuse to honor the trade, let us all know about it.

Ohh, and using market orders on currenex, durring news or otherwise, is plain bad business. Just don't do it.
I think Capitalforexpro are a more transparent broker for the Currenex platform than ODL. I have met with the guy who runs the institutional side of the business and he is very open about who are all their counterparties and the order flow process. May be worth contacting them and ask if their clients had similiar problems with off market fills.
  • #25
  • Apr 14, 2007 5:00pm Apr 14, 2007 5:00pm
Quoting tracej
Hey Symp, glad to see you are still alive and kicking. You are exactly right. Its hard enough to make money "fairly" w/o all the hidden traps these jokers set. Thats why right now I'm really down on spot fx. I don't have these issues trading index futures at all.

Good to see you.
Trace
Hello Tracej......which futures broker are you using? Is it IB?
Also have you got everything straightened out with IB regarding the FX issues? George is pretty dissapointed with them.
And I decided not to open with them...
Same Whore .... Different Dress
  • #26
  • Apr 14, 2007 6:38pm Apr 14, 2007 6:38pm
Quoting johnedoe
Hello Tracej......which futures broker are you using? Is it IB?
Also have you got everything straightened out with IB regarding the FX issues? George is pretty dissapointed with them.
And I decided not to open with them...
Hey, Yeah I'm using IB still. I haven't really had any major issues. The biggest problem I had was during 11-midnight CST the server resets cause it to go up and down 100 times but thats a pretty dead time anyway. I did have some slippage on gbp/jpy but I believe it was more of my fault and not having ButtonTrader setup right (it was doing market orders basically instead of limits). The platform is complex so that is why I use ButtonTrader. Thinking of switching to NinjaTrader though as it seems a little easier to use and has charts and some extra stuff BT doesnt.

As far as futures go - I haven't had the first problem with IB. Only with spot and their quirky interface. To be honest I'm thinking of ditching spot FX anyway. I really like trading in centralized markets where the brokers can't play as many games like they do in retail spot.

IB is going through a lot of changes right now and their customer service sucks but I think everywhere has their own set of problems.
TraceJ
  • #27
  • Apr 14, 2007 6:58pm Apr 14, 2007 6:58pm
Theres a very bad smell about this.

It seems likely that ODL have pocketed your loss (most likely from Turbo).

The fact you dealt at 1.5661 level, others at up to 1.60(allegedly) yet Turbo's deal is cancelled - all point to something nasty at ODL.

If ODL say the market dealt at 1.60, Turbo should be screaming why was his fill cancelled - they cant have it both ways - trades at that level are either vaild or not .


I know retail/institutional trading practices are different, but trades at off/non market prices(frowned upon and discouraged by the FSA), or mis-hits (eg you try to give a bid, but that bid is no longer there and you hit a lower bid) when giving/taking a price on EBS etc are often cancelled between banks .

Zek/Turbo/both should let ODL know you are contacting the FSA.
The FSA summarize their objectives with one overall aim "To promote efficient, orderly and fair markets and to help retail consumers achieve a fair deal"
  • #28
  • Apr 14, 2007 7:25pm Apr 14, 2007 7:25pm
wow. that's ridiculous.
  • #29
  • Apr 14, 2007 10:04pm Apr 14, 2007 10:04pm
Quoting zek132
I still think that any trade at a price at which the market never traded should not be valued. Because then you are not trading the forex market, you are trading some private playground. Bank, MM are all there partly to stop such occurances.
I think everyone should step back for a second and realize that being filled at 1.5661 isn't the problem. When the order was executed that was the best price available. Just because some charting service doesn't show price extending to that point doesn't mean that it wasn't quoted. Trading on currenex you ARE the market, so if you were filled at that price then thats what the market is. In short, there is no such thing as an off-market price on currenex.

Now in the interbank world, a trade like this would result in one party contacting the other and trying to arrange a giveback. If both parties agree that it should be reversed, then they do so. The winning party has the option of forcing the trade to be honored, but it won't win him any friends and more then likely he will find counterparties not wanting to deal with him. The interbank is all about relationships...

The problem here is that ODL is sticking the losers with the loss and reversing the winners gain. They pocket the losers loss and tell the winner it was an off market fill. Even if the trade ID's don't match, it is still shady that one winning trade at that price is reversed while a loser at the same price isn't. At a minimum, if ODL is going to be the party deciding which trades are reversed and which aren't, then they should be maintaining consistency in their decisions. The price was either off market, or it wasn't. They can't have it both ways.

NOTE:// Even if the tickets don't match, it would still be something to discuss with the NFA. I'm not sure what sort of authority they have in the matter, but they could at least call for ODL's records related to the transaction. Then even if the NFA doesn't have the ability to get your money back, they can at least give you enough of the details to make some sort of court action possible.
  • #30
  • Edited 10:21pm Apr 14, 2007 10:06pm | Edited 10:21pm
If you go thru turbo's entire journal, you will see several of these trades mentioned. It occurs more often than ppl realise. Sometimes they are reveresed on the winning side, and less often on both sides.

It is the perils of currenex trading, as someone said earlier, market order means best price available. And as bids and offers close to market are pulled out before news etc, best price is what is available. It is the nature of the beast.

I do agree though that if the transaction is cancelled on the winning side, it should also be cancelled on the losing side. Hope you are able to follow it up to a satisfactory outcome

Cheers,
K.


EDIT: Noticed Darkstar's post after submitting mine. His is the best and accurate reply so far.
  • #31
  • Edited 10:30pm Apr 14, 2007 10:19pm | Edited 10:30pm
Quoting Darkstar
I think everyone should step back for a second and realize that being filled at 1.5661 isn't the problem. When the order was executed that was the best price available. Just because some charting service doesn't show price extending to that point doesn't mean that it wasn't quoted. Trading on currenex you ARE the market, so if you were filled at that price then thats what the market is. In short, there is no such thing as an off-market price on currenex.
Hey Darky,

I do agree with you but as i've said earlier, a client of a brokerage firm is supposed to be trading on a forex market. Market at which there is a certain price level - interbank (which is reflected by EBS feed, because this is where the banks should be offsetting their trades in theory) If you allow trades to be taken at any price, this could lead to trading somethign other the the instument you are choosing. Another flaw in this logic is that, let's say, hypothetically, next price available is 10,000 point away for some reason. I buy/sell at 100:1 leverage and my balance goes into -100,000,000 $. Now, the trade is as you have said, at the next best price, but everyone is bankrupt including the broker (theoretically) Now i'm sure, if this was to happen, trade would be busted in no time. So i do not see why my case is much different. In the end it's all about trading the Forex market, not a market where a price can be anything the banks choose it to be - playground market. I hope you get my idea.

Best regards,

Vlad

P.S fogot to say that EBS price was never anything close to those levels, and never could be, forex market is very tight even during the news.

P.P.S No matter how you look at it, what ODL is doing is outright fraud
  • #32
  • Apr 14, 2007 10:37pm Apr 14, 2007 10:37pm
I disagree with your arguement, but I understand your perspective.

The only adivce I would offer is that you build your case on the fact that one trade was reversed at that price while another was not. It's really all about getting your money back and that will give you the best opportunity for doing so. I honestly wish you the best of luck with this and hope you will keep us informed on the progress.
  • #33
  • Apr 14, 2007 11:01pm Apr 14, 2007 11:01pm
Thanks for your advice Darkstar. I'll keep this post updated.

I also forgot to mention, i've talked to my other Currenex broker, and they have had a similar situation also. Basically they've told me that if the banks are allowed to offer any price they wish, they would be effectively given quote: "a licence to steal". They've talked to their prime broker and trades of their clients have been changed from 1.5435 to 1.5400.

Anyway, i'm off to sleep now.

Best regads,

Vlad Zapletin
  • #34
  • Apr 14, 2007 11:15pm Apr 14, 2007 11:15pm
took a look at the NFA page and came up with this.......I was considering opening an account with ODL ,,,,, now I'm not too sure.
http://www.nfa.futures.org/basicnet/...06&contrib=NFA
Same Whore .... Different Dress
  • #35
  • Apr 14, 2007 11:48pm Apr 14, 2007 11:48pm
Quoting johnedoe
took a look at the NFA page and came up with this.......I was considering opening an account with ODL ,,,,, now I'm not too sure.
http://www.nfa.futures.org/basicnet/...06&contrib=NFA
You are not sure? Even after reading this?
That says it all really as to the type of broker they are.
  • #36
  • Apr 15, 2007 1:22am Apr 15, 2007 1:22am
Quoting johnedoe
took a look at the NFA page and came up with this.......I was considering opening an account with ODL ,,,,, now I'm not too sure.
http://www.nfa.futures.org/basicnet/...06&contrib=NFA
EEK! I should check that place more often.
  • #37
  • Apr 15, 2007 8:33pm Apr 15, 2007 8:33pm
To Darkstar,

I would like to point out something else to you, in regards to why i think trades off the market should all be busted. Imagine you have a stop loss order 50 pips away from the current price for example, and for whatever reason liquidity is pulled and someone decides to buy/sells, and your order is taken out. Would you still insist that the trade is valid?

May be i'm missing something, please tell me what you think.

Best regards,

Vlad
  • #38
  • Apr 15, 2007 8:35pm Apr 15, 2007 8:35pm
I know this has nothing to do with ODL but check out these huge spikes on EFX feed, maybe around the same time of your mystery fill. They amazingly disapeared a little later. Check the times. This is for Eur/Usd and Gbp/Usd but still seems a little weird . I dont know if it affected any of there clients though.

http://www.forexfactory.com/attachme...1&d=1176687219
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  • #39
  • Apr 15, 2007 8:42pm Apr 15, 2007 8:42pm
Hey ZEK,

If im not mistaken isn't there an option on currenex called esp protection alert that solves the slippage problem. If it moves certain pips or if it takes to long to click it will advise you. And you can then either cancel or place the order.
Let me know if you were using that and if im correct.
As of right now im studying how currenex works. It is definetely very complex

Hopefully that is an option
  • #40
  • Apr 15, 2007 8:46pm Apr 15, 2007 8:46pm
I wasn't using the ESP, but another guy i know had it on, and he still got slipped, but i'm not sure what happened there.
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