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Let's talk future and solutions

  • #1
  • First Post: May 9, 2009 4:06pm May 9, 2009 4:06pm
"Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The Bankers own the Earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create deposits, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back again. However, take it away from them, and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear, and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But if you wish to remain the slaves of Bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create deposits." - Sir Josiah Stamp, President of the Bank of England in the 1920's.

So we can cry over spilled milk. Or we can find solutions.

I prefer finding solutions.

What could they be?
Not all sins are created equal
  • #2
  • May 9, 2009 7:17pm May 9, 2009 7:17pm
Quoting Jay Walker
So we can cry over spilled milk. Or we can find solutions. I prefer finding solutions. What could they be?
There really isn't anything us (traders) could do. Have you ever noticed the barrage of new regulations and rules set being introduce that are against how traders and investors make or move money? But NO new regulations for banks, bankers, brokers, investment houses .... etc.

As a civilian, there are many solutions we could take up in being against the banking system. One solutions would be to Do For Ourselves. Stop relying on free handouts and assistance, even if offered at an increadible discounted rate. Start saving and OWN EVERYTHING in your possession (such as your house) and not rely on "Credit" or borrowed funds. If you think about it, the idea of credit is crazy. Someone give you money, money you don't have and expect to be paid back, on time, with interest. If you are borrowing money, you've got a financial problem and I don't see that financially, strained person paying back money owed, with interest (at a high, over inflated interest rate in most cases).
  • #3
  • May 9, 2009 7:32pm May 9, 2009 7:32pm
Quoting Jhig
There really isn't anything us (traders) could do. Have you ever noticed the barrage of new regulations and rules set being introduce that are against how traders and investors make or move money? But NO new regulations for banks, bankers, brokers, investment houses .... etc.

As a civilian, there are many solutions we could take up in being against the banking system. One solutions would be to Do For Ourselves. Stop relying on free handouts and assistance, even if offered at an increadible discounted rate. Start saving and OWN EVERYTHING...
I partially agree with you.

My father could never have bought a house without credit. But he didn't borrow against it to get a car and a bunch of useless things. He paid it off within 14 years.

The idea is to use credit wisely. And to pay it off as soon as possible.

Maxing out credit cards at Best Buy and pay them off with a home equity loan is not a wise use and neither is borrowing to buy a giant SUV when it's used to go to Starbucks and back.
Not all sins are created equal
  • #4
  • May 10, 2009 11:27am May 10, 2009 11:27am
hi all,

let me just start off with this question 2 american traders here.

who owns the fed??? did u contribute 2 the presidential election campaign or 2 any political party?? do u have a powerful lobby group lobbying 4 your interests in congress???

well, the banks do!!!

obama maybe screwing the fat cats 4 their extravangance n perks. well, some1 had 2 take the rap 2 calm down the public. watch what happens when the crisis blows over!! the fat cats will want 2 regain the fat that they lost during the crisis. banks r in the business of making profits by screwing their customers. where do u think their multi-million bonuses come from? ever heard of the phrase" so, where r the customers yatchs"?? it's just like those fx bucketshops, ok.

go n read about the bofa takeover deal of merill lynch. there's a shocking relevation by it's ceo about the deal.

will we go back 2 the gold standard??? sure, if gold will be valued at a minimum of 10k per ounce. looking at the way the increasing money supply is growing day after day. i don't think 10k is enough!!!

why does your goverment condone all those banks n financial houses who lure u into debt?? spending future money that u don't have? wait, there's refinancing via your house with arm terms. ok, that's under the premise that the value of your house n your real salary keep rising too!!! i read that high school students who r still in school get credit card mails!!!

r u americans ready 4 inflation the weimar republic germany style!! or maybe u like the zimbawe model. with the way there're printing money, it is not impossible!!! r u ready when the us$ has been dethroned as the world's reserve currency?? r u ready 4 the dollar collapse?? when the central banks do not have any more reason 2 keep buying treasury bonds. like now, where the fed is printing money 2 buy it. your goverment is borrowing money from it's right pocket 2 put in the left pocket!!

some of u maybe concerned of the emergence n rise of china. but y?? u americans contributed 2 it in a big way!!

anybody who tells u 2 go into debt 2 b rich. tell them 2 go n take a hike. how many people do u know that r in debt up 2 their eyeballs n r rich?? with cold hard cash in their bank account 2 back them up??? those fancy doodads r what's killing them now. n how did the doodads come by?? by going into debt!! some will tell u that there r good debt n bad debt. nonsense. go into debt n soon u will find out someone owns u someday. the only debt u need is when u buy a house or take the risk of going into a business.

go n watch the movie i.o.u.s.a.
  • #5
  • May 10, 2009 12:42pm May 10, 2009 12:42pm
Quoting winningfx
hi all,

let me just start off with this question 2 american traders here.

who owns the fed??? did u contribute 2 the presidential election campaign or 2 any political party?? do u have a powerful lobby group lobbying 4 your interests in congress???

well, the banks do!!!

obama maybe screwing the fat cats 4 their extravangance n perks. well, some1 had 2 take the rap 2 calm down the public. watch what happens when the crisis blows over!! the fat cats will want 2 regain the fat that they lost during the crisis. banks r in the business of making...
I welcome your opinions but English is my second language and will kindly ask that you refrain from using "texting code" or whatever it is called. "2 b rich", "n r rich" are examples of what I'm on about. I have to ask that if you want everybody to have an ice cube's hope in hell of understanding what you're on about.

Second, I have seen I.O.U.S.A. and believe it to be required viewing for everybody whether they are American or not. That's the reason I've seen it twice.

Now that we know what the problems are, what could the solutions be?
Not all sins are created equal
  • #6
  • May 10, 2009 2:51pm May 10, 2009 2:51pm
Hi Jay,
It is very, very depressing but I think although we can
talk future we cannot talk solutions.
Given that all world governments and especially all politicians are by nature corrupt and devoid of any moral
integrity the chances for any reform are zero.
This may sound too cynical but I used to have great hopes
and brave aspirations, but over the last 40 odd years, I
have seen them all reduced to submission.
Hate to be negative but welcome to the real world.
  • #7
  • May 10, 2009 3:46pm May 10, 2009 3:46pm
Quoting fenlander
Hi Jay,
It is very, very depressing but I think although we can
talk future we cannot talk solutions.
Given that all world governments and especially all politicians are by nature corrupt and devoid of any moral
integrity the chances for any reform are zero.
This may sound too cynical but I used to have great hopes
and brave aspirations, but over the last 40 odd years, I
have seen them all reduced to submission.
Hate to be negative but welcome to the real world.
Thanks for the welcome.

So are you saying that there is no solution? None at all?

What happened to a government of the people by the people?

To give you an example, a friend of mine is an old hippie. We've all seen the type, bitch about this, moan about that. One day, fed up with his antics, I told him that if he felt so strongly about some issues to either get elected or if some candidate has views in line with his, to help that candidate.

Well guess what, he not only became a voter for the first time in his life but for the first time, he volunteered to help a mayoral candidate.

Even if I disagree with his views, I applaud his initiative. At least he took some.

Seems like a lot of people are mining and complaining about the company store while still supporting it.
Not all sins are created equal
  • #8
  • May 10, 2009 6:20pm May 10, 2009 6:20pm
This country has never been runned by the People and has always been runned by Politics. Take the basic idea of the Presidency. The original job of the President was to be Chief-and-Commander of the Military, not the people (civilians). That's all! Somewhere down the line, the people gave up the rights to have a say in this country by electing a "official" to speak-out for them. Instead, elected officials speak-out on their own personal profit or political gain and could careless what the people had to say. Now that the damage is done and things have been the way they are for generations upon generations, I don't see thing ever going back to the people.

People can blame any politician on the current economic state, but it's the people to blame. Politics should be ranned like a business; not a "social club", which is what it is today. There shouldn't be "sides", such as Democrates or Republicans. There should be one group of people working for a common goal on what's best for this country. It's the people who continues to promote the segragation of political groups by allowing this to happen and shamming thoughs who oppose.

There isn't going to be change (the President's electorial creed) unless a Re-Structuring of Government happens first. If things continue the way they are, it going to get worst for the people, not government. So, change must start with the people. Then and only then will you see change happening within the country.

But I don't see that happening. For gosh sakes, we still haven't delt with racism ... which runs rampid in the southrn (& most northern) regions of this country. So, when people stop being followers and opt to be leaders instead, then we will see change in the economy, because the politicians and wall street may complain and put on a dog & pony show on how bad the economy is and how it's not exceptable, and change needed, they are the ones profiting off the pains and struggles of the people. If anyone doesn't think I''m right, prove me wrong.

Everyone is talking solutions. The President, politicians, wall street ... but have you really seen any action backing up their talk?
  • #9
  • May 10, 2009 6:32pm May 10, 2009 6:32pm
Quoting Jhig
Everyone is talking solutions. The President, politicians, wall street ... but have you really seen any action backing up their talk?
Then maybe it's time for me to move to France. Where people get to the streets when they're pissed off instead of just taking it without the courtesy of a lubricant.

Or bring the Guillotine to America...Now there's a thought.
Not all sins are created equal
  • #10
  • May 10, 2009 7:30pm May 10, 2009 7:30pm
http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/blogs/s.../unibomber.jpg
The trend always ends.
  • #11
  • May 11, 2009 4:28am May 11, 2009 4:28am
Hi Jay,
You say "what happened to a government of the people by the people" When did really ever happen and if so how long did it last. Once people rise to a certain level they become
above the law. Why is it that heads of various Banks, I/houses etc are not facing any jail sentences for destroying
the savings/pensions of millions of people. The only sanction appears to be a reduction of bonuses !! Although these Banks are effectively State owned.! Any bonuses should be cancelled until they have worked off the debt.
Of course this will never happen.
The dark side is that if the people were to stand up and
demand change - it would go only one way.
To the extreme right or left. Either option would probably
be worst than our present situation
  • #12
  • May 11, 2009 6:54am May 11, 2009 6:54am
a solution?
what about changing the whole economic model from a debt based , to a resource based ...
http://www.thevenusproject.com/
To Live is the rarest thing in the world , Most people exist , that is all
  • #13
  • May 11, 2009 7:09am May 11, 2009 7:09am
hi jay and all,

pure english, no problem. although it's not my first language either.

it is greed at it's finest display. why do banks invent so many products?? then try to suck you in with misleading advertising and sales tactics?? is it because they had your future and welfare in mind?? to make you money and for the welfare of your family??

have we forgotten that the banks and all the financial houses. are all business out to make profits?? so who do they make their profits from?? do they have your interest or their interest in mind??

SO, WHERE ARE THE CUSTOMERS YATCHS?

politicians only have 3 things in mind. election,power and money. forget what they say to get elected. how many make good on their promises after they're elected???

i'd like to say that it's not only about banks. it comes down to the core of human beings!! humans need to be above others. separate themselves from others with class!! then comes greed and power. once you tasted these, you will feel like a superman. highly addictive and destructive!! in the hands of lunatics, you will get a financial crisis or war!!

there is no real solution, unless humans can change themselves from within. but being humans, that's impossible. how many recession and wars have humans gone through?? then at a memorial they say words of condemnation and vow to change and never to repeat the mistake again???

there will still be recessions, crisis and wars happening years from now. the people and place may change but history repeats!!
  • #14
  • May 11, 2009 7:47am May 11, 2009 7:47am
i'm not promoting religion in any way. But I would suggest practicing the true islamic finance. This means interest free loans and banks share teh risk with the lendees in terms of business loans and other things.

I know not all 'islamic' banks follow what the holy book have asked the muslims to practice, but I think islamic finance as dictated in teh Quran would solve this financial shit.
  • #15
  • May 11, 2009 8:32am May 11, 2009 8:32am
well Jay,
It seems i am not the only one with very pessimistic views regarding human nature ! I wish it were not that way, but
you cant deny the obvious.
  • #16
  • May 11, 2009 9:04am May 11, 2009 9:04am
It seems that more people are interested in breaking free from the social system that has been in place since civilization began. Haven't people noticed that for the past 5000 years society has always been structured around oppressors and those being oppressed. We've been conditioned and lied to for centuries and we still continue to perpetuate this structure. In my opinion religion played a massive role in creating this structure but now the rich have taken over its reigns.

The solution lies in determining why humans psychologically can't recognize this. Even if some do there are still fewer who are motivated enough to do anything about it. Venturing into the unknown where chaos can result is enough to put most people off from even thinking about the implementation of a new social system.

Also on a somewhat related note, why are people chastised for not voting when sometimes the best course of action is not to choose where no candidate is adequate. Why would people assume that those who do not vote are just lazy, irresponsible or disinterested?
  • #17
  • May 11, 2009 10:21am May 11, 2009 10:21am
Quoting mjotic
It seems that more people are interested in breaking free from the social system that has been in place since civilization began. Haven't people noticed that for the past 5000 years society has always been structured around oppressors and those being oppressed. We've been conditioned and lied to for centuries and we still continue to perpetuate this structure. In my opinion religion played a massive role in creating this structure but now the rich have taken over its reigns.

The solution lies in determining why humans psychologically can't recognize...
Hey mjotic,
I totally agree with your views; don't get me started on the religious debate. Religon has no place in Government or Business. Not to knock or disrespect peoples religious views but a religion based government is structed on a One-Sided View. That in it self can hinder a country's value and economic state by playing with the notion of that old saying, "MY Way or the Highway", especially when a country (this country in particular) is SOOOO diverst in culture and religous views. One size, in fact, does not fit all.

And it's a shame that the majority is based on a "heard" mentality. This country has created a civilzation of sheep that would rather "bhaah" than act upon an injustice (though the proper channels, of course) that weighs down it's people.

As fenlander has said,
Quote
It seems i am not the only one with very pessimistic views regarding human nature ! I wish it were not that way, but you cant deny the obvious.

and I wish it wasn't that way ... but, it is what it is.
  • #18
  • May 11, 2009 11:25am May 11, 2009 11:25am
despite everything bad that has been happening in our world ,
I believe we all have a better future waiting ,
cause we destroy to rebuild ,

ah reminds of a song by Lennon , Imagine ...
To Live is the rarest thing in the world , Most people exist , that is all
  • #19
  • May 11, 2009 12:29pm May 11, 2009 12:29pm
While most people have been basically complaining about how bad we humans are, or the banks, or politicians or oppressors, nobody really talked about the future and solutions. So I'll take a stab at it.

First, let's talk about what the 'problem' is. The real problem is that we are witnessing the largest credit bubble pop in the history of mankind. We can all bitch and moan as to why we built up the credit bubble, but the fact remains that it was created and it is popping.

What that means is that asset prices across ALL classes will be deflating. In general this isn't the worst thing in the world, but it is really horrible now because people, companies and governments doubled down on their inflated asset values by borrowing against them. OOPS!

So as people got rich by inflating the price of assets and then borrowing against the inflated prices, they will get poor / go out of business as their loans are unpaid, and their asset prices deflate.

Second, let's talk about what is being done to 'solve' this problem. Clearly Bush tried to semi-inflate our way out of the problem, and Obama just jumped on the bandwagon and put the 'inflate our way out it' car into overdrive. Let's just print money by providing a guarantee to bad debt, giving people money we dont' have, deficit spending, TARP, PPIP, GM bailout, etc. etc.

Third let's talk about a) will this work, and b) what is going to happen if it doesn't. Well I for one don't think it will work. If we really get to some inflationary point, then our creditors will just raise their interest rates adn the game will be over. Further, the fundamentals of the economy aren't changing. Earnings aren't really increasing to make up for any inflation. Savings rates are WAY up, just means that the federal debt is making up for the consumer debt of the past. What happens when Obama stops spending borrowed money? Will consumption return? I dont' think so.

So, what do we do? Personally, go to cash, trade to make some money, get out of debt and wait. Most people worry about inflation, but don't think about the benefits of deflation. Sure your house price goes down, but so does everthing else. Oil is down 66% from its peak! So is corn, wheat, cotton, etc. Sales are everywhere and the dollar is strenthening.

We may have a flash of inflation this year or next. But afterwards, bring on the deflation train! The dollar will get stronger, and the buying power will be great. Look for longer term investments in 2011-13. Small businesses should be selling for 1-2x cash flow instead of the normal 3x. Cap rates on apartment buildings should be at 10-12% instead of 4-6%. And those with dollars will have plenty of opportunity.

The long term solution, to avoid this problem in the future, is to let institutions fail, get the gov't out of deciding who will 'win' and 'lose' economically, and let the market work. All else just extends and makes the problem wors. Watch 2010 and 2011 be terrible, terrible years as people realize that any gains in 2009 were manipulated, phantom, gains and the economic emporer has no clothes
  • #20
  • May 11, 2009 7:30pm May 11, 2009 7:30pm
Quoting fenlander
Hi Jay,
You say "what happened to a government of the people by the people" When did really ever happen and if so how long did it last. Once people rise to a certain level they become
above the law.
They certainly may have that impression. But the truth is nobody is above the law. Be it man's law or the laws of physics...those pushed over the cliff fall down. Who will it be?

Quoting fenlander
Why is it that heads of various Banks, I/houses etc are not facing any jail sentences for destroying
the savings/pensions of millions of people. The only sanction appears to be a reduction of bonuses !!
I agree with you. So what will it be? Will people bend over and take it? Will they even pass the lube? And for how long before people wake up and say "Wait a minute...something isn't right!"

Quoting fenlander
Although these Banks are effectively State owned.! Any bonuses should be cancelled until they have worked off the debt.
Of course this will never happen.
If you believe it will never happen, you're right. And if you believe the opposite, you're right too.

Quoting fenlander
The dark side is that if the people were to stand up and
demand change - it would go only one way.
To the extreme right or left. Either option would probably
be worst than our present situation
Less Mussolini, more Gandhi. Does everything have to go through extremism?
Not all sins are created equal
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