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Intraday Point and Figure Trading

  • #21
  • Feb 21, 2009 1:18am Feb 21, 2009 1:18am
  •  Yuppie
  • Joined Jun 2007 | Status: ̿ ̿ ̿̿'̿̿\̵͇̿̿\=(•̪●)=/̵͇̿̿/'̿̿ ̿ | 2,727 Posts
Quoting pnf-trader
You draw a 10 pip box and 2 box reversal, 24/5 by hand?
Which timeframe do you use to get the data from and do you use close values or high/low of each closed bar...

I get the data from the tick-chart.

Attached is a trade I took a while ago. The main chart is there to show the candle representation. I wasn't watching this. I constructed the PnF from the tick.

Interesting point: I got out of this trade for a few pips as price drifted along sideways after entry (break above .30 level). A PnF chart abstracts out time and so had I followed PnF only here I might have stayed in for what was ultimately a 200 pip move with little pullback.


Magnus
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  • #22
  • Feb 21, 2009 6:18am Feb 21, 2009 6:18am
Quoting Angler
It should not matter what timeframe you use to plot the charts if the plot is done on a tick by tick basis....
If your chart is based on tick data then you're right. But it's also possible to make a chart out of end of day values. This was the method they used for trading stocks - taking a look in the newspaper and update the chart. At least, that's what i've read in different books on point and figure.


Quoting Angler
with some of them if you use an hour chart you can watch the (say "X") column rise and print a few X's but if in that same hour the price drops back down those "X's" get removed,which is not right...once plotted they should stay...
Don't have this problem with my charts, but I can understand that this must be really bothering


Quoting Angler
and if the reversal box number is hit then "0's" plotted even in that same hour ...but some just dont do that...Your trade gets triggered then you look later and cant find why you took the...
This is true for using tick data maybe, but when you take end of day (or end of hour, minute etc.) data, then a new column won't be started as long as you have made new X's or O's in the current column. Only if a new high or low wasn't made a reversal might occur. But for using real time tick data, this might not be true.
  • #23
  • Feb 21, 2009 6:23am Feb 21, 2009 6:23am
Quoting Yuppie
I get the data from the tick-chart.

Attached is a trade I took a while ago. The main chart is there to show the candle representation. I wasn't watching this. I constructed the PnF from the tick.
This looks great, really! Didn't know there are people using tick data as basis for their p&f charts. I know of two other guys that draw them based on 30min bars using high/low or close values. That way, you are also able to update many charts at the same tick.

If you're using tick data, this might be a little too much work.
  • #24
  • Feb 21, 2009 12:32pm Feb 21, 2009 12:32pm
  •  Yuppie
  • Joined Jun 2007 | Status: ̿ ̿ ̿̿'̿̿\̵͇̿̿\=(•̪●)=/̵͇̿̿/'̿̿ ̿ | 2,727 Posts
Short article on PnF.
Attached File(s)
File Type: pdf FOREX - Point and Figure Charts (TAS&C).pdf   190 KB | 5,721 downloads
  • #25
  • Feb 22, 2009 12:08pm Feb 22, 2009 12:08pm
Is there anyone who can create an indicator to capture the tick data PnF?
  • #26
  • Feb 22, 2009 8:47pm Feb 22, 2009 8:47pm
hi all...

PnF-Trader

My understanding of the right way to chart P&F....in the older days on shares.. was to plot your chart using the " Course of Sales" data that used to be printed in most papers at the time...they printed that data even going back 10 yrs or so...that way you had the price of each sale that took place.

But yes I know the computers only used the end of day....but this is not quite right and distorts the charts a bit..
  • #27
  • Feb 23, 2009 6:09pm Feb 23, 2009 6:09pm
I didn't trade today, because I have been busy. But I have looked at some charts later. Before market closed on friday, EURUSD made a 200 pip upward move.

Today, USD has gained strenght again and the downward direction is still intact (second screenshot, box size 10 and reversal amount 3).

Take a look at the first screenshot (box size 100 and reversal 3, eod data), price is still below the bearish resistance line. I wouldn't go long in this current market situation but only look for sell signals. I added 3 support lines at 1.2400, 1.2500 and 1.2600. This have been strong support lines in the last weeks and months.

I am a little bit afraid of a bigger retrace due to the heavy support down here. And I don't want to be stuck at those price levels if a possible retrace should go back to 1.30 - 1.35. So maybe, I stay away from the market totally or only use a scalping setup to earn a few pips. But I will probably not open any mid and long term positions in the moment.

What do you guys say to the current situation of EURUSD?
Attached Image(s) (click to enlarge)
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  • #28
  • Feb 24, 2009 5:03am Feb 24, 2009 5:03am
In my first post I have written about the break of the bearish resistance line in GBPJPY, end of day data with 100 pips boxsize.

Since then, GBPJPY made a ~500 pips upward move. Now I will watch 3x50 for a new buy entry signal, which I see at 139.50.

Attached two screenshots of 3x100 and 3x50.
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  • #29
  • Feb 24, 2009 1:14pm Feb 24, 2009 1:14pm
Beautiful charts pnf-trader. My compliments!!
Potential Bullish Catapult also on EURJPY
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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  • #30
  • Feb 24, 2009 2:36pm Feb 24, 2009 2:36pm
Here's a pretty nice P&F mq4 to check out guys.

Good Trading!

Brent
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: pandf.png Size: 29 KB
Attached File(s)
File Type: mq4 FXI Point And Figure Advanced.mq4   39 KB | 4,366 downloads
  • #31
  • Feb 24, 2009 2:53pm Feb 24, 2009 2:53pm
You were right with the bullish catapult. It payed out if you had traded that signal... Unfortunately, I missed it and read your post just a few minutes ago

I used the same setting just to see if my charts looks like yours. It's very similar, I guess the difference is only due to the different data feeds.

But may I ask, why you use a box size of 82? This isn't very common - I thought (and read) that the most popular box sizes in forex are 10, 25, 50 and 100. But I may be wrong

I have opened the long position in GBPJPY, that I mentioned in my previous post. Now I wait for another buy signal to trail my stop and back up the profits - and maybe adding a new, smaller position.

If price should fall again, I will not let it run into a losing position and wait for a new signal to occur.


---

I have a general question to all you p&f traders out there. Do you have your favorite pairs open all the time or are you looking for signals each day on many of the different pairs?

I have selected a few (3-4) favorite pairs and on each pair, I have 3 different setups opened: 25 pips, 50 pips and 100 pips. And then I add 2-10 pips boxsize for intraday trading and scalping.
Attached Image(s) (click to enlarge)
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  • #32
  • Feb 24, 2009 4:15pm Feb 24, 2009 4:15pm
Quoting pnf-trader
Y

But may I ask, why you use a box size of 82? This isn't very common - I thought (and read) that the most popular box sizes in forex are 10, 25, 50 and 100. But I may be wrong
Its just because that I scanned for patterns within a box range 30-100 and it happened that it found forming bullish catapult at 82.

It may very well be that 10, 25, 50 and 100 are popular but I prefer to capture all of them.
Attached Image
  • #33
  • Feb 24, 2009 5:39pm Feb 24, 2009 5:39pm
Quoting apfx
Its just because that I scanned for patterns within a box range 30-100 and it happened that it found forming bullish catapult at 82.

It may very well be that 10, 25, 50 and 100 are popular but I prefer to capture all of them.
Oh, I see. Thank you for the explanation. That is very interesting. You can do such a scan with Amibroker Platform? I am only familiar with MetaTrader so far and haven't used any other platforms. But maybe I should try other platforms as well
  • #34
  • Feb 24, 2009 5:50pm Feb 24, 2009 5:50pm
Quoting pnf-trader
Oh, I see. Thank you for the explanation. That is very interesting. You can do such a scan with Amibroker Platform? I am only familiar with MetaTrader so far and haven't used any other platforms. But maybe I should try other platforms as well
I'm sure it can be easily done in MetaTrader too:
loop through symbols, loop through boxsizes, print results on screen or in txt file.
  • #35
  • Mar 11, 2009 5:35am Mar 11, 2009 5:35am
Quoting Yuppie
I get the data from the tick-chart.

Attached is a trade I took a while ago. The main chart is there to show the candle representation. I wasn't watching this. I constructed the PnF from the tick.

Interesting point: I got out of this trade for a few pips as price drifted along sideways after entry (break above .30 level). A PnF chart abstracts out time and so had I followed PnF only here I might have stayed in for what was ultimately a 200 pip move with little pullback.


Magnus

I have been inspired by Yuppie to buy some graph paper and try the tick data approach. PNF Trader's charts look great, and his website is very slick, price is very reasonable, but I want to see the differance of using tick data in P&F before buying PnF Traders Indy.

I understand using the bar as the high and low of a day, as a hand chartist would from the paper in the past for daily data, but I want to day trade. Because Forex is composed of frequent large spikes intraday, relatively speaking, my interest in P&F is to filter out what happens in between, and catch those large moves.

On an hourly chart, a hundred plus move can be all in one bar. Can charting tick data capture this better than charting one min bars? I just don't know, would like to here your thoughts. In the meantime I'm gonna get some graph paper and put in the sweat equity.

Esignal has P&F with tick data, but that costs $175 a month. It would be great if PnF Trader i modified his to do both bars, and tick data, if that is even possible in MT4.

Crassius
  • #36
  • Mar 11, 2009 5:51am Mar 11, 2009 5:51am
  •  Yuppie
  • Joined Jun 2007 | Status: ̿ ̿ ̿̿'̿̿\̵͇̿̿\=(•̪●)=/̵͇̿̿/'̿̿ ̿ | 2,727 Posts
Quoting Crassius
I have been inspired by Yuppie to buy some graph paper and try the tick data approach....

Hi Crassius,

It doesn't really matter if you use tick or bar data...

I have no experience with any platforms that provide point and figure... For me personally, PnF charts are just a very small part of what is/can/should(?) be used to trade... I'm talking about support/resistance levels, general trend on higher TFs, etc...

Mainly drawing PnF out of interest...


Magnus


p.s. Those "spikes" are more likely to cause you losses than profits if you're starting out. Higher timeframes have less "noise"...
  • #37
  • Mar 11, 2009 9:49pm Mar 11, 2009 9:49pm
Quoting Yuppie
Hi Crassius,

It doesn't really matter if you use tick or bar data...

I have no experience with any platforms that provide point and figure... For me personally, PnF charts are just a very small part of what is/can/should(?) be used to trade... I'm talking about support/resistance levels, general trend on higher TFs, etc...

Mainly drawing PnF out of interest...


Magnus


p.s. Those "spikes" are more likely to cause you losses than profits if you're starting out. Higher timeframes have less "noise"...

I think it's "spikey" at hourly time frame. Its 100 pip runs with in one 1 hour candle is not that uncommon. This affects my Elliot Wave/Fib Cluster method that works so well in index futures. Unless I stick to 4 hr or higher time frames, which I don't like to do, because it means holding positions over the weekend.

As far as the tick data, what I think... I don't know till I try it... is that charting the tick data is going to fill boxes as they happen, as opposed to charting bars, where 6 or 8 blocks might be filled all at once.

I've ordered The Definitive Guide to Point and Figure Charting by Jeremy Du Plessis. He covers both tick and bar data, so I'll learn from that I hope.

What interests me about P&F though is it seems great for setting stop loss in conjuction with an entry trigger, and Plessis's book goes into setting targets as well. This would allow me to calculate Risk/Reward ratios, and use that info in my position sizing algorythm.

It's really that whole set of factors that have me interested in P&F. I need entry trigger, R ratio, and position sizing together to make a complete trading plan.

I'll follow this thread and look forward to reading the book.

Crassius
  • #38
  • Mar 12, 2009 2:04am Mar 12, 2009 2:04am
Crassius,

you can have a look inside the book before you buy it:

http://books.google.de/books?id=tEPx...earch_s&cad=0#

Sixer
  • #39
  • Mar 12, 2009 9:44am Mar 12, 2009 9:44am
Quoting Sixer
Crassius,

you can have a look inside the book before you buy it:

http://books.google.de/books?id=tEPx...earch_s&cad=0#

Sixer
Thanks. I actually read through that. They give you more pages than the Amazon Look Inside feature.

Crassius
  • #40
  • Mar 18, 2009 11:50pm Mar 18, 2009 11:50pm
Hi pnf-trader

Are your trendlines automated by the pnf indicator?

How are they determined?

Thanks
Adam

Quoting pnf-trader
Hm... it seems there are not many point and figure traders out here. Well, I will write some...
WARNING: Don't follow me as I'm just learning
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