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(can) small accounts make a living ?!

  • #81
  • Mar 1, 2009 3:07pm Mar 1, 2009 3:07pm
Whether it is possible is irrelevant. The odds of successfully doing it are astronomically small.

Quoting smittens4212
The answer to the OP question is unequivocally a "YES." This is a fact; you can make a living off a small account. We know this because we know that people have done it before. We know this because doing even one minute of simple math shows that small accounts can make a livable wage.

So whether Reardon says you can or you can't, it doesn't matter because he (apologies if he is not a male) does not have a monopoly on what is possible in trading.
  • #82
  • Mar 1, 2009 3:38pm Mar 1, 2009 3:38pm
Quoting mrgreen
I did a quick read of this thread and it appears that everyone is assuming that H.Reardon is gonna say - YES - u can make a living w/ a small acct.
What happens if he says- NO - u can't.
Oh well - Time will tell.....
Good point!

Seeing as how the vast majority of forum members here trade with small or demo accounts, the obvious answer is HOPEFULLY yes.

Someone needs to define "small and "a living"

regards,
  • #83
  • Mar 1, 2009 3:53pm Mar 1, 2009 3:53pm
small = 1000-3000 dollar
living= 2200 dollar a month ( atleast thats a minimun sallery here )
StopLoss is for none belivers... Trust the Gurus..
  • #84
  • Mar 1, 2009 4:19pm Mar 1, 2009 4:19pm
Quoting lillelise
small = 1000-3000 dollar
living= 2200 dollar a month ( atleast thats a minimun sallery here )
There's a big difference between 1000 and 3000 account when trying to achieve 2200 a month ( net, after taxes)

I say that and really no there's not, when trying to achieve these types of returns monthly, consecutively, with out exception.

To gear your account in this attempt, you increase your chance of terminal failure. Yes you may make it for a month or two or three, but sooner or later when you keep doubling down the roulette wheel lands on green.

regards,

undercapitalizeation is one of the 7 deadly trading sins, another is not understanding the math regarding losses and the amount of energy needed to recoup said losses.. the two go hand in hand mix that with high leverage and oversized positions and you have a deadly cocktail.

But hey, I'll read along and see what the author has to say.

Tis just my $.02
  • #85
  • Mar 1, 2009 5:01pm Mar 1, 2009 5:01pm
So many logical asumptions here.... I agree in general .... but something is eluding most people is that difficulty doesn't mean impossible ..... bsides what time frame do we give to achieve this ?

I'm just letting my words flow because if try and think of the correct way to present my thoughts I'll tire and not do it ... this way at least i can convey something ...

Now all my rabmling is beacuse I started with a small account $2,000 .... built it up , tore it down .... blew it .. refunded it.. started over ....

Now my account is at $6,000 but the clicncher is that I have been taking money out of my account to live off for over a year now ....

WHAT ! how irresponsible of me .... maybe maybe not

my expenses are $1,500 a month , basically I get to about $2,000 profit a month and leave the $500 in to grow the account ,

before I get the barrage of do's and don'ts , let me say that this is my choice of trading this way and Im well aware of the danger but hey , I still stick it out ... I realiza that it's almost as if start over every month but hey that's how im doing it ..

How do i do it ? minilots , 100/1 max leverage but generally i do 10/1 , i go for $300 a day if possible , sometimes i make more sometimes less ....

what about losses ? what about them , basically dont be an overleverage ass and you be ok, it test my patience everyday but each day i survive the more Im positive when I do have more account size I can make even more ,

right before the mega fall of eur/usd from 1.60 my account was at $16,000
i didn't think it would fall lower than 1.50 ( gee i was wrong ) anyways i blew my accound and started over .... lesson learned , ( picking bottom is not easy )

I think the MOST difficult aspect of a small account is that you will make more than one mistake based on fear,greed, inexperience and it can wipe you out.... but if you really honest to god ( or whatever ) control your risk , you be ok ....

my method is a combo a PA , watching s&r , breakout of daily ranges , consilidation, IB's and a few other bits and bobs I noticed from the constant watching of the candles day in and out ....

I know there must be a better more responsible way , I know there is lesser way as well , but hey this is working for me at the moment , and I keep it up.

if anyone is going to attck, do it with a good one , not standard fare memorised forum should and shouldn'ts ,
  • #86
  • Mar 1, 2009 5:58pm Mar 1, 2009 5:58pm
as long you keep your account in profit...it doenst matter how big it is..
just my opinion...
its all about your SL.
StopLoss is for none belivers... Trust the Gurus..
  • #87
  • Mar 1, 2009 6:02pm Mar 1, 2009 6:02pm
It's what I've been working on with currency for 5 years or something stupid, on and very off like 6months without looking at a chart just, just getting back on it, works running out @4months to replace my income.


Requirement initially @£1200 GBP per month.
Current Account Value @£1000 GBP.

Plan trading $1 per pip, make enough consistent profit to get account within 3 - 4 months to @£5000.

Then make 50% profit per month
Then take 50% of that profit out, keep some to 1 side for account BLOW ups and disasters and live off it, leaving some account growth to make life easier.

So 5000 + 2500 - 1250 = £6250
then 6250 + 3125 - 1562 = £7813 Account balance

So account growth + Wage is just about feasible, if your GOOD !!

Am I GOOD ?? well NO to put it plainly but I could be.


Like all good plans, there born out of necessity which sadly doesn't make for a good plan
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
  • #88
  • Mar 1, 2009 7:29pm Mar 1, 2009 7:29pm
I would like to chime in only because I started with a small account, and built it upto a not-small acct (notice I did not say big!!)

Someone once said to me, forex is the hardest way to make easy money. The significance of that sank in many many months later.

Why anyone would want to try to make a living off forex with a small account defies all logic. It is like being in business, there is no assurity of profit the next day, hence no assurity you will be able to pay the business expenses (phone bill, internet bill, electricity, rent/mortgage etc). Trading with a bill sitting next to you, knowing that if you turn profit in this trading session will result in you paying this bill on time, is added pressure, and why as a trader would one want to put extra pressure on themselves.

Is it possible to make a living with a small acct - probably yes, if one lives as a hermit, eates bread and beans, does not go out etc. But if the reward is dependant on the risk, then by trading forex, the trader is taking on a huge risk, and the reward should surely be greater than what they could make by working a 9-5 job, or even in someplace like Mcdonalds etc.

But if the question would be that can a small account be built up to a level where it is possible to make a living out of it, then that has a higher degree of success and logic.

I am a pharmacist by trade, make a decent living, but still want to go away from it. Trading makes me an additional about 60% of my salary. I theoritically could afford to give up my job. But until I can make 3X my pharmacist wage, I just do not see it even remotely beneficial to me, my family, and future plans. What happens when you have a week of loss etc. What happens when you go on holidays? Trading an account for living is one thing, but to be able to trade, live off it and allow it to grow so you can still draw down on a mthly income without it depleteing the acct is another thing.

Just my 2pips worth.

Regards,
K.
  • #89
  • Mar 1, 2009 7:40pm Mar 1, 2009 7:40pm
Quoting kermut
I would like to chime in only because I started with a small account, and built it upto a not-small acct (notice I did not say big!!)

Someone once said to me, forex is the hardest way to make easy money. The significance of that sank in many many months later.

Why anyone would want to try to make a living off forex with a small account defies all logic. It is like being in business, there is no assurity of profit the next day, hence no assurity you will be able to pay the business expenses (phone bill, internet bill, electricity, rent/mortgage...
Good post.

Another thing that springs to mind is the fact that if you have any responsibility . . . As in . . . A family to look after etc. I cannot imagine the pressure it would put on a trader to have his family's prosperity linked in to trading.

You can never guarantee "20 pips a day" or x amount a day or month. So (from my point of view only) You would need a few years savings AND some serious bank behind you to consider making a living from it.

That is only me though. . . Still open to other's ideas and I enjoy reading posts that don't agree with my point of view.
  • #90
  • Mar 1, 2009 7:54pm Mar 1, 2009 7:54pm
Quoting Jigsaw
Good post.

Another thing that springs to mind is the fact that if you have any responsibility . . . As in . . . A family to look after etc. I cannot imagine the pressure it would put on a trader to have his family's prosperity linked in to trading.

You can never guarantee "20 pips a day" or x amount a day or month. So (from my point of view only) You would need a few years savings AND some serious bank behind you to consider making a living from it.

That is only me though. . . Still open to other's ideas and I enjoy reading posts that...
Thats why so many in the industry are single and live by themselves. Most professional traders will trade heavily until their 30's then get a mangement type role at a firm (good salary) and consider that retirement. Get a wife kids etc.

That being said, I know a guy in London who trades for himself and looks after his family with trading funds. BUT he has a VERY VERY good plan, to avoid any problems. And it involves alot of saving and fewer luxuries.
  • #91
  • Mar 1, 2009 9:19pm Mar 1, 2009 9:19pm
Quoting kermut
I would like to chime in only because I started with a small account, and built it upto a not-small acct (notice I did not say big!!)

Someone once said to me, forex is the hardest way to make easy money. The significance of that sank in many many months later.

Why anyone would want to try to make a living off forex with a small account defies all logic. It is like being in business, there is no assurity of profit the next day, hence no assurity you will be able to pay the business expenses (phone bill, internet bill, electricity, rent/mortgage...

  • #92
  • Edited 3:35am Mar 2, 2009 2:13am | Edited 3:35am
Good morning all,

Well, it is good to see such engagement in the thread regarding my intentions. Some are intrigued, other suspicious - that fine by me.

I haven't let the cat out of the bag yet and you will have to wait until tomorrow since I have to work for a bone-hard exam later today.

A couple of things I would like to clear up beforehand though. I won't do this on an individual basis (over 90 posts) but hopefully the posters I am referring to will know.

I was born in the 1960's and I spent a long time working for a world-wide securities firm that provided clearing in stocks and futures - hence my background and interest in financial markets. I made some very good friends who were closely affiliated with some of the most recognizable names in trading which ultimately furthered my enthusiasm to become a trader.

Some of what I learned from these people I intend to pass on here amongst other things.

To put the mind of the doubters at ease: this is not a scam - I am not trying to sell anything or induce anyone to buy anything anywhere else.
I have gained enough experience and confidence (in my mind) to be relaxed about trading and to take the time without any self-interest other than to possibly help a few out there who also want to make it in what I can only describe as the most captivating occupation there is.

As I mentioned in my first post: do not expect a grail and neither expect this to be easy. There is a huge difference between reading something that may sound logical and translating it into steady practise. Some will find disappointment - that is normal. Not everybody is cut out for the markets in the same way that not everybody will become a politician or rocket scientist.

I will leave it with that today - more tomorrow.

H. Rearden
  • #93
  • Mar 2, 2009 3:51am Mar 2, 2009 3:51am
to make a million $ in trading you need 2 million to begin with.
  • #94
  • Mar 2, 2009 3:50pm Mar 2, 2009 3:50pm
Quoting piccolo
to make a million $ in trading you need 2 million to begin with.
therefore to make 500$ you need a 1000$ and so on...

BTW.. to make a living out of 1000$ it's extremely difficult, if you dont re-invest your profits.
I believe you can grow 1000$ into something extraordinaire( in long time not a quicky million) but it's not easy, it's possible because such cases are registrated.
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" leonardo da vinci
  • #95
  • Mar 3, 2009 3:46am Mar 3, 2009 3:46am
Good morning all,

As mentioned previously, this thread will be mainly based on my personal experiences and as for the viability of my points, there is always the aspect of individual character traits that may make replicating parts of the process difficult.

For example, If my way of looking at the markets would be based on a very long term investment mentality, then people with a very small amount of patience in them could find it very problematic to follow.

So, before I touch on the subject of the thread how much in my view is necessary to 'survive' in the markets - before or after in fact making big money - let me say this:

Always know that if failure occurs, it occurs as a result of lack in knowledge.

As much as I appreciate all the free material on the web, for the novice it is most likely 'information overload' - and sadly, many many of the systems/methods/grails propagated (free or not) do not work. That does not mean that they don't have merit or a valid concept behind them, but because the application of a concept has to 'fit' you as a trader.

Look at it this way: ask yourself from which profession you are trying to free yourself. Have you been an accountant, a butcher, a policeman or a student? Have you been good at what you were doing? If so, what made you become proficient? Now ask yourself whether reading up on the internet or reading a few books or talking to other accountants, butchers, policemen or students were the reason you became what you are in your job?

If you are serious about becoming a trader (and I expect that is what you will tell me), then you definitely have to approach this from a real business point of view - not as a trip to the casino to find out if lady luck might just be on your side.

To give you a small example, I started out with £100.000,00 ! Don't worry, that is not the amount necessary to get going - but be clear about one thing: by not adhering to what I explained above, and moreover what I am trying to get across in this thread, you could easily lose a an amount like that - like I almost did.

Back soon.

H. Rearden
  • #96
  • Edited 6:03am Mar 3, 2009 5:48am | Edited 6:03am
Ok, I am back to continue.

There are many different reasons for people to embark on the challenging path of wanting to become a trader.

I have heard most of them.

I want to become filthy rich - and quick!
I want financial freedom - as well quick if possible.
I want to work from home.
I want to prop up my pension.
I like a good gamble.
I lost my day job and I want to try something different -and the markets promise a possibility.
I am fascinated by the markets, that's why I want to become a trader.
I am bored and I have already money and don't know what to do with it.
I want to become a famous trader.
A friend or advertisement told me that you can make easy money by just purchasing the right system.
I have been to an online webinar and I think I can do it now.

I think that I might not be too far off in saying that this might sound familiar to many of you.

I would now like you to check your own primise, i.e. your own personal situation in terms of finances as well as committments to ultimately make a decision which will either enable you to position yourself correctly to take on the challenge, or to find that it might be better to either forget the idea on economic grounds - or maybe postpone it untill the conditions are more in your favour. Don't underestimate the risk involved in A, setting up a business and B, this particular business.

Back later.

H. Rearden
  • #97
  • Mar 3, 2009 6:34am Mar 3, 2009 6:34am
Ok, time to move on...

Before carrying on screaming into the void, I would like some feedback from readers in terms of how many of you have actually got a plan in front of them stating what they want (or need) to achieve in order to carry on either living their lives with current committments (that goes for job changers) or starting to build a career (that goes for school leavers or graduates)?

I am aware hat individual situations (answers) will differ - nevertheless, my advise will hopefully be universal enough to cover those differences.

No fear, we have all been in the same boat at some point. (that excludes the group of people who are financially secure to the point of not having to care, of course)

H. Rearden
  • #98
  • Mar 3, 2009 6:51am Mar 3, 2009 6:51am
if by plan you mean "How much will I need to make the next month (quarter, year) to support my living" document, divided into sections and based on sufficient amount of months, then YES. My wife has one, she just loves these kinda things...
  • #99
  • Mar 3, 2009 7:02am Mar 3, 2009 7:02am
I have cut my expenses to the minimum possible, and have an accurate idea of how much I need to make each month to cover the few remaining bills I have left. As far as a goal for trading gains each month, I have stopped doing that because it was effecting my trading decisions in a negative way.

So I guess for now my plan is to continue to work part time to get all debt paid off and add to my trading account while building up a trading history that will give me a better idea of what I can expect from myself in terms of gains over a 12 month period.
  • #100
  • Mar 3, 2009 7:07am Mar 3, 2009 7:07am
Radiant,

That is excellent - it should be part of everyones trading plan. So, your wife is content with you trading the markets (or planning to)?

I am asking this because it is an important factor in the process. I have to admit that I have been married several times - happy now thank God - but at times, especially when you live and work under the same roof, friction can and will happen at times, which is not conducive to trading.

Back to the plan: Will (or is) trading going to be your main or only income or have you got financial help from your other half?

Sorry to ask such personal questions - I am using you (for the discussion) as a guinea-pig if you don't mind.

H. Rearden
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