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This so called "self-destruction" of trading systems...

  • #101
  • Mar 18, 2007 7:44pm Mar 18, 2007 7:44pm
people share their systems because of two reasons

to boost their ego

or

to be helpful

or even both..who knows..
but lately i've been reading a lot on trading psychology , and ego seems to be a double edge sword.

Having a decent amount of it helps you be skeptical about others opinions thus you are less likely to be swayed. Those that lose either have too much of it or completely lack it. What do you think of that analysis guys?
  • #102
  • Mar 18, 2007 7:45pm Mar 18, 2007 7:45pm
Its hard to argue with crazy logic but let me give it a try.

supply and demand:

say you have 2,100 gizmos for sale at $25 each.
2,200 people really want a gizmos.
The price will go up until only 2,100 people want gizmos.

Now lets say you have 30 widgets at $100,000 each.
33 people want widgets.
You are saying since the price per item is so high, the price cant change?

its about *units* not about price.

You are not actually looking stuff up here. You are just thinking 3 trillion! no way anything can have an effect on it. This seems like a very obvious answer, but I beg you to do the research, I see the markets move everyday.

Clarification: The turtles had nothing to do with "diverse" markets.
They traded different markets so they could trade more than 1 trade at a time. Like trading eur and chf at the same time, its not good. So they diversified.

That all said this is my last post on this thread. Either you get it or you dont at this point. Darkstar and others have directly answered you but it wasn't the answer you were looking for. I need to get back to feeling guilty for not giving away my system that allows me to spend all this time on FF
  • #103
  • Mar 18, 2007 8:31pm Mar 18, 2007 8:31pm
Quoting StockKJay
Does news straddling count as a system? ...many credit Felix with actually changing how Oanda operates.
I'd say that you answered your own question - for reasons of their own, BROKERS changed the rules on news trading.

IMHO news trading wasn't really a trading system as much as it was just shooting fish in a barrel.

As "controversial" as it might be, I'd say that FXTerminator has been correct in nearly all of his observations.
  • #104
  • Mar 18, 2007 9:49pm Mar 18, 2007 9:49pm
Igrok, I enjoyed your book, glad to see you on the forum, your insight is appreciated -

One thing I notice about some systems is that they seem to generate signals at the same time. For example, I was using the Knife and ForexOverEasy and they were both giving me a signal at exactly the same time. (one on the 4-hour charts - one on the 15 minute). I remember one time I had Fozzy's system up, and it was giving me a sell signal - at the same time a sell Pinocchio Bar had formed and another system I was testing was also giving a sell signal.

One poster said (I don't remember who) that as one user's system begins to fail, they will either drop out or optimize their system to get it to work better. This scenario seems to ring true for me.
  • #105
  • Mar 18, 2007 11:55pm Mar 18, 2007 11:55pm
Quoting Darkstar
I'm not saying it has been said, I'm asking the question. If nobody is going to use the information, why share it at all?
Kudos to you DS. And thank you for taking the high road on this sharing thing. I just couldn't leave you waving in the breeze without some sort of direct response.
ie. support.

Sharin' vs Keepin' it Secret.

To Share;
If I could post a Method to a forum that requires a minimum of 250 posts{a number that would indicate sincerity to me} before being able to see my post, I would do it, albeit with some reservation, in a minute. {If you check out my history, not only on this forum, but others as well I think you will find I have been more than willing to assist other Fellows.}
Why the Reservations?
I would like to think that I would not be wasting my time on Ears that had no chance of understanading what I was saying. This Market is Very complex and requires an even greater complexity of understanding Before Anyone should be willing to risk one hard earned dime & If you think that after decades of learning to understand that, I am willing to risk not only MY money, but Your's also, then hang on for a moment or two, you have another thought coming.

I, for one, am not willing to open the door to be subjected to a tirade of inexperienced Traders telling me that they took my {technical} advice and Lost Funds on a Trade that I did not get into because of MY Discretion.

Keepin' it Secret;
Uhh, Duh, What's Mine is Mine & Workin' Fine.
Does telling you make it work any better? That's up to me to decide. Period.

Does telling you & you getting rich make me feel any better? Of course it does, but @ what risk?

{Bemac; the guy}
I have Coached Sports {as a volounteer btw} for > 2 Decades and have NEVER experienced a Student worth his salt that 100% accepted that I knew what I was doing. They Always thought they had a better way. A couple of them may eventually be better than I could have ever dreamed I could be {and I would like to think that I was some small part of that}. A few of them not only learned what I was trying to teach them, but also learned how to learn. {yeah, ok, read that part again. I'll wait.} Those are the ones that will Excell in whatever they do.

The reality is that for most of them, I will be The Last Coach in their lives and they will live their lives in this OneUpManship society believing that exhibiting a lack of understanding is a sign of weakness and therefore going through life saying things like.. "You're full of $hit." "Prove it." "Show me what you got." with the most fervent hope that their bluff will work as it has in the past.

Another Member here has a signature the esscence of which I have tried to instill in All my Students. The crux of which is...
Ignorance is Not Being Willing To Say..."No, I do not understand!"
Wisdom is exhibited by the opposite.
  • #106
  • Mar 19, 2007 12:07am Mar 19, 2007 12:07am
Quoting hilmy83
people share their systems because of two reasons

to boost their ego

or

to be helpful

or even both..who knows..
For sure both reasons stand behind any sharing, but usually only one is dominant, and you can tell it right from the first post.

It seems to me that there is a third motivation. Many of us were brought up in a conviction that one should work hard to earn money. When a person makes some money trading, s/he feels guilty. To relieve the guilt, some donate to charity, some share their system, some do both. Do you think it is so?
sans peur et sans reproche
  • #107
  • Mar 19, 2007 12:23am Mar 19, 2007 12:23am
I don't think any successful traders look at trading as easy money. Sure it may become easy for them after a while, but only after years of hard work.
  • #108
  • Edited 1:11am Mar 19, 2007 12:50am | Edited 1:11am
Quoting ilanr
Many of us were brought up in a conviction that one should work hard to earn money. When a person makes some money trading, s/he feels guilty. To relieve the guilt, some donate to charity, some share their system, some do both. Do you think it is so?
Funny. Have never looked at this business from such perspective because this could be the hardest job on earth. I would have never chosen this profession in case I knew how difficult it would be to get some success and how much time and efforts should be invested into it. You can be an average specialist in almost any other profession and still make living but an average trader is nothing more than just another loser.
  • #109
  • Mar 19, 2007 12:51am Mar 19, 2007 12:51am
Quoting Igrok
Funny. Have never looked at this business from such perspective because this could be the hardest job on earth. I would never chose this profession in case I knew how difficult it would be to get some success and how much time and efforts should be invested into it.
yes I've often wish I'd never about forex, but sadly I'm in too deep now.
  • #110
  • Mar 19, 2007 2:17am Mar 19, 2007 2:17am
Quoting witchazel
Clarification: The turtles had nothing to do with "diverse" markets.
Sure, sure, then you know NOTHING about the trading methodology behind the Turtle system. Please learn some more THEN (and only THEN) we will talk.


Quoting witchazel
They traded different markets so they could trade more than 1 trade at a time.
Wrong again. The whole Turtle system is about DIVERSIFICATION. No diversification, no trading edge, simple as that. You obviously don't have a clue what this Turtle system is all about and I am certainly not going to just sit here and answer any more UN-INFORMED comments like that.
  • #111
  • Mar 19, 2007 2:38am Mar 19, 2007 2:38am
Quoting FXTerminator
Sure, sure, then you know NOTHING about the trading methodology behind the Turtle system. Please learn some more THEN (and only THEN) we will talk.

Wrong again. The whole Turtle system is about DIVERSIFICATION. No diversification, no trading edge, simple as that. You obviously don't have a clue what this Turtle system is all about and I am certainly not going to just sit here and answer any more UN-INFORMED comments like that.
Just for giggles I dug up the trading method. Maybe you could enlighten us exactly where in the text it describes the need for diversification. The best I can gather from the text is that they traded multiple markets to increase yield, not so that the system would work. But I could just be another uninformed...

http://freeforexebooks.com/Other/turtlerules.pdf
  • #112
  • Mar 19, 2007 2:48am Mar 19, 2007 2:48am
Quoting Darkstar
The best I can gather from the text is that they traded multiple markets to increase yield
There you go, "multiple markets".

Bravo, you are (almost) getting the whole picture.

Not bad, not bad at all.
  • #113
  • Mar 19, 2007 2:54am Mar 19, 2007 2:54am
Quoting Igrok
Funny. Have never looked at this business from such perspective because this could be the hardest job on earth. I would have never chosen this profession in case I knew how difficult it would be to get some success and how much time and efforts should be invested into it. You can be an average specialist in almost any other profession and still make living but an average trader is nothing more than just another loser.
Sure it's hard like hell. But I wonder if sometimes, earning an average sallary in a matter of minutes, you don't feel guilty? After all, an average musician earning her living in an orchestra, also has spent 20 years learning and practicing, and she rehearses for hours every day, and it's a helluva hard work...

BTW, hard is not necesserily bad. Maybe I'm still too new in this business, but meanwhile I just loved each one of the 2500+ hours I've spent doing even the least creative stuff, like punching backtest data into a spreadsheet...
sans peur et sans reproche
  • #114
  • Mar 19, 2007 3:13am Mar 19, 2007 3:13am
Quoting ilanr
Sure it's hard like hell. But I wonder if sometimes, earning an average sallary in a matter of minutes, you don't feel guilty? After all, an average musician earning her living in an orchestra, also has spent 20 years learning and practicing, and she rehearses for hours every day, and it's a helluva hard work...
What about her losing monthly paycheck plus some savings for a single wrong accord or note taken?
  • #115
  • Mar 19, 2007 3:36am Mar 19, 2007 3:36am
Quoting Igrok
What about her losing monthly paycheck plus some savings for a single wrong accord or note taken?
Her stakes are not so high. You risk proportionally to what you hope to gain. But this is not the point. When you are part of this "guilt culture", you feel guilty even more when you lose one's monthly paycheck...
sans peur et sans reproche
  • #116
  • Mar 19, 2007 3:48am Mar 19, 2007 3:48am
Quoting FXTerminator
There you go, "multiple markets".

Bravo, you are (almost) getting the whole picture.

Not bad, not bad at all.
Maybe your grasp of english isn't so good. Let me point out what you missed

The best I can gather from the text is that they traded multiple markets
to increase yield

Please show us where in the turtle rules it says that the only way the system generates ANY profit is through diversification.
  • #117
  • Mar 19, 2007 4:04am Mar 19, 2007 4:04am
Quoting Darkstar
Maybe your grasp of english isn't so good. Let me point out what you missed

The best I can gather from the text is that they traded multiple markets
to increase yield

Please show us where in the turtle rules it says that the only way the system generates ANY profit is through diversification.
Our friend Darkstar is losing his "egde" (like in the forex market so to speak).

Darkstar, do you really think that your yelling and red painting will somehow convince your readers?

Personnally I think you are just polluting this thread unnecessary, so please just go and start your own "1001 Things I do not know about the Turtle System" thread, ok buddy?
  • #118
  • Mar 19, 2007 4:08am Mar 19, 2007 4:08am
Quoting FXTerminator
Our friend Darkstar is losing his "egde" (like in the forex market so to speak).

Darkstar, do you really think that your yelling and red painting will somehow convince your readers?

Personnally I think you are just polluting this thread unecessary, so please just go and start your own "1001 Things I do not know about the Turtle System" thread, ok buddy?
So really what this post says is that you can't find anything about diversification being required to make a profit from the turtle method. Wouldn't that confirm that you were blatently wrong in your assessment of the rules and yet you are incapable of admitting it?

Don't you owe witchazel and myself an apology?
  • #119
  • Mar 19, 2007 4:24am Mar 19, 2007 4:24am
Quoting ilanr
Her stakes are not so high. You risk proportionally to what you hope to gain. But this is not the point. When you are part of this "guilt culture", you feel guilty even more when you lose one's monthly paycheck...
In such case every trade must end up with some regret when after closing a position at the end you realize that you could either win more or lose less. Direct way to the shrink’s office.
  • #120
  • Mar 19, 2007 8:52am Mar 19, 2007 8:52am
if there is a system that takes advantage of an inefficiency in the market, then yes, absolutely, if you share the system it will ruin it. think about it, the inefficiency is only worth a certain amount of money, so you will have to share this money with all the people who are exploiting the inefficiency with you.

however, if you have a system that uses discretion, you can share it without harm, because you are not targeting an inefficiency (as mechanical systems do).

this is my opinion, but i share this opinion with the best traders in the world. all you have to do is read the market wizards books to see this.
Relax and be happy.
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