MB trading - no dealing desk? | Page 2 | Forex Factory

Options

Go to
Permalinks
Print Thread

Similar Threads

Dealing Desk vs No Dealing Desk 0 replies

FXCM new no dealing desk platfrm 24 replies

What is Dealing Desk? 7 replies

No-dealing desk broker with 100:1 leverage 22 replies

Is FXCM dealing desk a dinosaur? 25 replies

MB trading - no dealing desk?

  • #21
  • Mar 8, 2007 3:33pm Mar 8, 2007 3:33pm
I dont have a problem with their spreads, nor do i with their platform. I was talking about their commissions.

Consider a 100k trade on cable where i gain 5 pips:
P/L: 50 Usd
Commissions: 19.28 USD

As i wrote, thats 40% of your profits. Aint looking like a scalpers paradise to me. My facts are actually quite straight, thanks.

The spreads dont go much lower than MBTs, i agree that their quotes and liquidity is fine.

The same trade on Interactive Brokers, with compareable spreads (but on a admitadly quite horribe platform) would have costed me 5 USD, which would be 10% of my profits. Some currenex brokers do even go lower on fees.

Id much rather trade on MBT/EFX because of their superior platform, but as i showen, with those sort of commissions its a nobrainer where i take my biz.

Quoting mrmikal
Again, this is a total misconception. I found the BEST scalping opportunities are on MBT.

With the amount of liquidity, the speed of their platform (no requotes, and very little slippage), the ability to trade within the spread...it's a scalper's paradise. The commission equates to the spread...and the spreads on the highest moving pairs is virtually zero...maybe 1 pip most of the time.

If you're "gunning" for pips on a regular platform, not only do you have to deal with slippage, but you have to wait for the movement to clear the spread before you could make any money.

So, make sure you get your facts straight...

Remember, a scalper's greatest asset is a fast platform and the tightest spreads. I'm not sure you can go any lower than MBT, to be honest.

EURUSD is usually 0-1 pips most normal trading hours...and even so, you can make the spread 1 (or less) by placing a limit order within the spread. With the commissions, it's about a 1.5 pip spread...that's about as low as you can go (except maybe with DUKASCOPY).
  • #22
  • Mar 8, 2007 4:01pm Mar 8, 2007 4:01pm
Shrike,

I don't understand your logic?

If you have a broker that has a 4 pip spread on the GBPUSD and you "collect" 5 pips...you only get 1 pip in profit and 4 pips goes to the spread...right? That also means that your PROFIT is only $10 on a 5 pip run.

If you're with MBT...and the spread is 1 pip, then you pay 1 pip for the spread, $19.38 for commissions and you collect $20.62 for you...$10.62 MORE than you're getting with your average broker. If you can get in cheaper by trading within the spread, that's even more for you

No matter how high the price runs, you will ALWAYS get a better trade out of MBT.

I just don't see what you're trying to say, my friend...you're not making much sense. Just remember, in order to "gain" 5 pips, you have to let the price run farther on a regular broker. With MBT the price doesn't have to run nearly as far in order to get the equivalent profit.

You sound like you're fooled by the "no-commissions" ads that most brokers put up. Don't be fooled, yo...you're paying the spread...period...you want to make 5 pips at a normal broker...you have to let the price run 9 pips!! You want to make the equivalent profit at MBT, the price only needs to travel 7-8 pips. Try that during super high volatility and see how much farther you have to run when you get slipped 5-20 pips. You can cut that slippage in half at MBT/EFX...I just don't get your logic.

Quoting shrike
I dont have a problem with their spreads, nor do i with their platform. I was talking about their commissions.

Consider a 100k trade on cable where i gain 5 pips:
P/L: 50 Usd
Commissions: 19.28 USD

As i wrote, thats 40% of your profits. Aint looking like a scalpers paradise to me. My facts are actually quite straight, thanks.

The spreads dont go much lower than MBTs, i agree that their quotes and liquidity is fine.

The same trade on Interactive Brokers, with compareable spreads (but on a admitadly quite horribe platform) would have costed me 5 USD, which would be 10% of my profits. Some currenex brokers do even go lower on fees.

Id much rather trade on MBT/EFX because of their superior platform, but as i showen, with those sort of commissions its a nobrainer where i take my biz.
  • #23
  • Mar 8, 2007 4:27pm Mar 8, 2007 4:27pm
Your misconception is that EFX is the only ecn-type broker. Interactive Brokers has simmilar spreads like EFX(0-2 on cable), so do currenex brokers and some others. Difference is, you pay like 2-5 times(depending on pair) less in commissions there.
  • #24
  • Mar 8, 2007 4:28pm Mar 8, 2007 4:28pm
Quoting mrmikal
Shrike,

I don't understand your logic?

If you have a broker that has a 4 pip spread on the GBPUSD and you "collect" 5 pips...you only get 1 pip in profit and 4 pips goes to the spread...right? That also means that your PROFIT is only $10 on a 5 pip run.

If you're with MBT...and the spread is 1 pip, then you pay 1 pip for the spread, $19.38 for commissions and you collect $20.62 for you...$10.62 MORE than you're getting with your average broker. If you can get in cheaper by trading within the spread, that's even more for you

No matter how high the price runs, you will ALWAYS get a better trade out of MBT.

I just don't see what you're trying to say, my friend...you're not making much sense. Just remember, in order to "gain" 5 pips, you have to let the price run farther on a regular broker. With MBT the price doesn't have to run nearly as far in order to get the equivalent profit.

You sound like you're fooled by the "no-commissions" ads that most brokers put up. Don't be fooled, yo...you're paying the spread...period...you want to make 5 pips at a normal broker...you have to let the price run 9 pips!! You want to make the equivalent profit at MBT, the price only needs to travel 7-8 pips. Try that during super high volatility and see how much farther you have to run when you get slipped 5-20 pips. You can cut that slippage in half at MBT/EFX...I just don't get your logic.
I totally agree. No commission is a hoax. Most of the stuff covered on this thread is answered more thoroughly under the EFX boards. Justin over at EFX posts here regularly, and they do a stellar job of customer service at EFX. You'll probably find answers/discussions about all of this on their link:

http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=10002
FXChant Singing the World of Forex
  • #25
  • Mar 8, 2007 4:36pm Mar 8, 2007 4:36pm
Dude, how is that MY misconception? At what point did I say that MBT/EFX was the ONLY ECN??

Interactive brokers has the exact same commission requirements as MBT/EFX.

I was merely pointing out the difference between using a retail broker and MBT/EFX.

And by all means, I have a large sum of money burning a whole in my pocket and I would LOVE other suggestions for currenex brokers were I could pay 2-5 times less commissions.

Please, do share what brokers offer lower commissions. I have a pretty sizable cash account that I've been looking to move into another broker.

Quoting shrike
Your misconception is that EFX is the only ecn-type broker. Interactive Brokers has simmilar spreads like EFX(0-2 on cable), so do currenex brokers and some others. Difference is, you pay like 2-5 times(depending on pair) less in commissions there.
  • #26
  • Mar 8, 2007 4:54pm Mar 8, 2007 4:54pm
IB charges 0.2 pips commissions, that equates to $20 per 1 mio. currency (read: not per dollar ammount) traded. Minimum commission is 2.50 USD, so a mini trade is cheaper on EFX, but if you trade bigger, IB is *WAY* cheaper. Its on all on their website. I dont see how thats the exact same.

As for currenex, there is a list of whitelabel-partners on
http://www.currenex.net/about_us_white_label.html

Of that list, MAN and Fimat have the highest balance/volume requirements to accept a client, aarontrade(they arent on the list yet) to my knowing the lowest(they will open an account even with 25k).
  • #27
  • Mar 9, 2007 11:15am Mar 9, 2007 11:15am
silliness -----

do a one pip scalp (not a flip, but a true scalp, which means all the usual -- between the bid and ask or anyplace you can get accepted) and you will find youre giving up to half your profit in commission. if youre doing a longer term swing or even a flip, the percentage you lose to commisssion is less, naturally, but in that case you might as well trade with the barber down the street because the good things that ECN's provide to stocks dont apply to what they do for forex !

good platform, along with ib and others, BUT dont tell me how good it is for scalps, cause COUNTING WHAT YOU ACTUALLY MAKE, its just not designed for that (unless you wish to do a few hundred a day)

please dont attempt to defend the indefensable !

mp
  • #28
  • Mar 9, 2007 2:12pm Mar 9, 2007 2:12pm
What the hell are you talking about?

Of course, counting what you actually make is important. But did you not see my example?

Take 2 brokers
- MBT or IB
- Any broker with a fixed spread on the GBP of 4 pips (typical)

You enter longs on both brokers at the price of 1.9300 (at the ASK)...note that the BID at this point on the fixed spread broker is 1.9296. The BID at MBT is only 1.9299 (a 1 pip spread).

The ASK price goes up to 1.9305...
- The fixed spread broker's price is now 1.9301
- MBT's price is 1.9304

So you SELL your long positions in both brokers
- The fixed spread broker gave you a profit of 1 pip or $10...it's true 0% of that profit went to commissions
- At the SAME time, you sold at MBT at 1.9304 for a profit of 4 pips or $40. Then you pay $19.31 in commissions giving you a total profit of $20.69. Grant it, over 50% of your profits went to commission.

OK, genius...which trade would you have rather made?

Hmmm...which trade, which trade? do I take 0% commissions and make $10 or do I take 50% commissions and double my profit on the trade? 0% commission...double my profits...0% commissions or double my profits?? I can't decide!

(Man, I hope the reason I'm profitable is because I'm winning against this logic)

:-)

Again, not trying to necessarily root for MBT or EFX...IB was suggested yesterday, and they might be a good alternative...but come on here...why try to justify trading with a fixed spread broker against an ECN like MBT? I just don't get it.

Quoting mparker
silliness -----

do a one pip scalp (not a flip, but a true scalp, which means all the usual -- between the bid and ask or anyplace you can get accepted) and you will find youre giving up to half your profit in commission. if youre doing a longer term swing or even a flip, the percentage you lose to commisssion is less, naturally, but in that case you might as well trade with the barber down the street because the good things that ECN's provide to stocks dont apply to what they do for forex !

good platform, along with ib and others, BUT dont tell me how good it is for scalps, cause COUNTING WHAT YOU ACTUALLY MAKE, its just not designed for that (unless you wish to do a few hundred a day)

please dont attempt to defend the indefensable !

mp
  • #29
  • Mar 9, 2007 3:23pm Mar 9, 2007 3:23pm
Quoting shrike
I agree, because of their commission-structure scalping is prohibitive on MBT/EFX. For example, if you are gunning for 5 pips, on GBP/USD a whopping 40% of your gains would go MBT, on USD/JPY its sill some 25%. A scalper needs low commissions, a broker would eat you alive with such a trading style.
are you kidding?
  • #30
  • Mar 9, 2007 3:37pm Mar 9, 2007 3:37pm
Quoting mparker
silliness -----

do a one pip scalp (not a flip, but a true scalp, which means all the usual -- between the bid and ask or anyplace you can get accepted) and you will find youre giving up to half your profit in commission. if youre doing a longer term swing or even a flip, the percentage you lose to commisssion is less, naturally, but in that case you might as well trade with the barber down the street because the good things that ECN's provide to stocks dont apply to what they do for forex !

good platform, along with ib and others, BUT dont tell me how good it is for scalps, cause COUNTING WHAT YOU ACTUALLY MAKE, its just not designed for that (unless you wish to do a few hundred a day)

please dont attempt to defend the indefensable !

mp
some brokers charge 5 pips on the pound i can be out with 4 pips with a profit 2 pips for them 2 pips for me where as i would still 1 pip in the hole with some of the bucket shops never mind other brokers fail to execute trades freeze the platform put you in at the top of spikes. never mind my scalps can be 10 20 30 or more pips check out the GBP forum for thursday those trades were live as they happened try that with another broker
  • #31
  • Mar 10, 2007 8:49am Mar 10, 2007 8:49am
some traders/ retail traders don't understand the benifits of having a non-dealing desk broker where they trade with the banks and don't have to put up with the bullsh*t of market makers / bucket shop. they keep saying you have to pay commision i bet they don't know they or paying in other ways and those ways will hurt them then any comm non-dealing brokers charge.
If I Go Broke Trying Then I Will die happy.
  • #32
  • Mar 10, 2007 9:20am Mar 10, 2007 9:20am
Amen, brother, Moe!

Quoting Moe
some traders/ retail traders don't understand the benifits of having a non-dealing desk broker where they trade with the banks and don't have to put up with the bullsh*t of market makers / bucket shop. they keep saying you have to pay commision i bet they don't know they or paying in other ways and those ways will hurt them then any comm non-dealing brokers charge.
  • #33
  • Mar 10, 2007 10:48am Mar 10, 2007 10:48am
Oh my god, I rest my case. Some guys here have issues with reading comprehension or suffer some kind of broker stockholm syndrom.

The 5 pip example was just to illustrate how important commissions are to scalpers.

All i was saying, there are brokers who do exactly what mbt does, but at a fraction of their costs. But, please yourselfs, and good luck with your trading.
  • #34
  • Mar 10, 2007 11:09am Mar 10, 2007 11:09am
Quoting shrike
Oh my god, I rest my case. Some guys here have issues with reading comprehension or suffer some kind of broker stockholm syndrom.

The 5 pip example was just to illustrate how important commissions are to scalpers.

All i was saying, there are brokers who do exactly what mbt does, but at a fraction of their costs. But, please yourselfs, and good luck with your trading.
just to know how long do you trade forex ? i believe that you started tomorrow !!!!
  • #35
  • Mar 10, 2007 11:20am Mar 10, 2007 11:20am
i wasn't comming after you bro i was just making a point about some traders cry about commissions when it comes to non-dealing desk brokers over market makers, and i do agree mbt commissions or high and there or better ecn's that charge less, so if i was looking for a non-dealing desk broker i will try to find the cheaper commissions broker but i will never choose a market maker over any non-dealing desk broker no mattter how much commission they charge. and i rest my case

Quoting shrike
Oh my god, I rest my case. Some guys here have issues with reading comprehension or suffer some kind of broker stockholm syndrom.

The 5 pip example was just to illustrate how important commissions are to scalpers.

All i was saying, there are brokers who do exactly what mbt does, but at a fraction of their costs. But, please yourselfs, and good luck with your trading.
If I Go Broke Trying Then I Will die happy.
  • #36
  • Mar 10, 2007 12:59pm Mar 10, 2007 12:59pm
Quoting shrike
Oh my god, I rest my case. Some guys here have issues with reading comprehension or suffer some kind of broker stockholm syndrom.

The 5 pip example was just to illustrate how important commissions are to scalpers.

All i was saying, there are brokers who do exactly what mbt does, but at a fraction of their costs. But, please yourselfs, and good luck with your trading.
the reasom mb can charge high fees is because there are too few brokers who can do exzactky what mb does .if they get more competion they will be forced to lower prices maybe we could start a list. its good to have options
  • #37
  • Mar 10, 2007 1:11pm Mar 10, 2007 1:11pm
Shrike,

You did make your point yesterday, and you're fine. I did try to call Interactive Brokers, by the way (to ask about something different - I wanted to ask them about hedging), and couldn't get through. My hold time was 40 minutes...but I you were correct, the commissions are cheaper.

Perhaps you can answer...it says the minimum commissions per order was $2.50...however, on a mini lot, that's sort of expensive. Is it really a PER ORDER commission or is it rolled up somehow like if you trade 5 mini lots during the day in 5 separate orders, your commission would be 2.50 for the day? I would think that if the trade was 0.2 basis points per trade value is a pretty good deal as long as it's based on your total # of trades during the day rather than your per order trade (especially if you're trading less than 100K a day).

Anyways, your point was absolutely valid, bro...there was that other dude that was trying to say 0% commissions at a retail forex broker was better...I made my peace with what you said a few days ago when you mentioned Interactive Brokers.

Cool? I don't want to think we were targeting you.

Quoting shrike
Oh my god, I rest my case. Some guys here have issues with reading comprehension or suffer some kind of broker stockholm syndrom.

The 5 pip example was just to illustrate how important commissions are to scalpers.

All i was saying, there are brokers who do exactly what mbt does, but at a fraction of their costs. But, please yourselfs, and good luck with your trading.
  • #38
  • Mar 11, 2007 10:14am Mar 11, 2007 10:14am
Sorry for my last reply, i thought some posts were directed to me when they were not.
The minimum of 2.5$ is per order, so mini-trading is much cheaper at mbt. The daily volume is only relevant if you do more than 100 mio., then there are commission rebates.
You cannot do hedging at IB, all positions are netted out, i.e. if you go long 100k eur/usd and short 100k gbp/usd you have a net eur/gbp exposure. All PnL is generated in the quote currency and has to be exchanged back to the account base currency on the ideal platform.
Margin calculation is complicated.
IB has a long history of horrid customer support, no wonder you wouldnt get anyone on the phone.
There is a lot of stuff i dont like about IB, but as long as you overcome the minimum commission, they are really cheap.
  • #39
  • Mar 11, 2007 11:12am Mar 11, 2007 11:12am
Quoting shrike
Sorry for my last reply, i thought some posts were directed to me when they were not.
The minimum of 2.5$ is per order, so mini-trading is much cheaper at mbt. The daily volume is only relevant if you do more than 100 mio., then there are commission rebates.
You cannot do hedging at IB, all positions are netted out, i.e. if you go long 100k eur/usd and short 100k gbp/usd you have a net eur/gbp exposure. All PnL is generated in the quote currency and has to be exchanged back to the account base currency on the ideal platform.
Margin calculation is complicated.
IB has a long history of horrid customer support, no wonder you wouldnt get anyone on the phone.
There is a lot of stuff i dont like about IB, but as long as you overcome the minimum commission, they are really cheap.
We understand shrike we wasn't trying to be hard on you bro, ib is cheaper in the long run, ib makes things so hard like there platform, margin call and so on, and we all know about there customer service other then that like you said if you can get pass all that they or a good broker to trade with and you know they ain't going nowhere very sound company.
If I Go Broke Trying Then I Will die happy.
  • #40
  • Mar 14, 2007 3:28pm Mar 14, 2007 3:28pm
Quote
I did try to call Interactive Brokers, by the way (to ask about something different - I wanted to ask them about hedging), and couldn't get through. My hold time was 40 minutes...but I you were correct, the commissions are cheaper.

One good reason to pay a little higher fee for trades are if you needed to call the broker to get out of a trade, like if your internet went down, IB would be a problem lol.

Also, have you ran an IB and a EFX/MB trading platform side by side?

I've noticed IB has a 1 pip spread higher then EFX/MB. Which would mean they cost about the same per trade.

Just something you should also look at.
0 traders viewing now