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Giving It All Back.

  • #21
  • Edited Mar 13, 2008 1:04am Mar 12, 2008 11:53pm | Edited Mar 13, 2008 1:04am
Quoting MMDealer
Again, nice one quincy, i need to hear this sort of thing from you guys. Its not a good place to be right after a MASSIVE loss. Cheers.

By the way, me and my workmate, also an aspiring trader, are writing out full trading plans and rules tonight... should have been done properly a long time ago.
I walked that path - and sometimes still still tripped.
It is easy to say rules, disciplines.................
Try this. Get two or 3 separate PCs. Have only. Certain pairs on each PC no repitition. Once you have a trade on a certain pair, switch that PC off. Don't try to hatch it. Don't look at it. Put your target and stops.

I have now EA's made to my desired exit strategy - including an antihedge EA to go along with. Once my entry is done with manual, I drag the EA on that chart. If you stay on the pair and watch you second thought on the rules and exit and give a chance to wrong habits to come in to kill your rules. It must turn now...It will turn now.....you add. You don't want to lose that money... you wait.....and finally the loss get too dangerous - you exit. Damn !!! all I won is given back !!!!!!
Am I partially right ??????

Learn to walk away from PC or shut that pair out and go on trading other non or less related pairs.
When I catch a trade that have the Weekly-Daily-H4 trend in agreement on my lower TF chart , M5,M15 - I don't put any stops. But I calculate my MM to expect a 500 pips drawdown. I do add at every 200 to 250 pip down, done by EA. It is all within my MM. I will look if I see extreem on the DOW to make early exit if necessary.
  • #22
  • Mar 13, 2008 12:25am Mar 13, 2008 12:25am
I'm struggling with the same issues the original poster describes. For me it has been a lifestyle struggle. Staying balanced and healthy for sure gives you the extra inner strength to treat yourself well. Well enough to remain focused on the long term results.

On tuesday hours before the surprise annoucement I was averaging up on GBP/JPY which is completely outside of my system. I had about 7xs more than I planned to hold on the trade, market was drifting higher and I wanted just one pip, ONE pip turned into a 300 pip margin call since I didn't have a stop in. After all, I was only going for one pip. That's my little sob story. And considering I was up huge since January, about 80% following my system, I not only lost all my gains, I gave up the principle too. So now I am out of ammo and will have to work internally on being kind to myself and keeping out of trouble.

For all of you out there who are struggling through this very real issue, I feel for you and wish you inner strength to keep your wits and live to trade another day.

meza
  • #23
  • Mar 13, 2008 9:28am Mar 13, 2008 9:28am
I have to strongly disagree with the notion of adding to winning trades. Your method's rules need to encompass both the entry AND the exit. If those rules need to be changed, then change them AFTER the trade, not while the position is open.

Either the rules are good or they aren't. Do what you have to to optimize them and then leave them alone and just follow them.

When your money is burning in front of your eyes, a rock-solid adherence to rules is your only life-line.
  • #24
  • Mar 13, 2008 10:27am Mar 13, 2008 10:27am
I wonder if there is anyone who could say they have not been a victim of this trading dilemma...certainly not me. I am still not over it, got knocked out this week myself...but I am learning that:
developing a trading strategy which includes entry and exit and sticking religiously with it is best.
The market and therefore trading opportunities are always around and it makes no sense going after a trade that you believe should be gaining when it is losing with the hope that it will start to gain. If your strategy says get out, get out. If you have no strategy get out anyway, because no amount of adding to the position is going to bring it back for you...one trade can't influence the market.
The the biggest obstacle to making progress is your self and your thoughts..so don't become emotionally involved with your trades, be like the surgeon...clinical in execution...cut what needs to be cut and take only what is necessary.
Trading requires discipline, much more than anything else i have ever done, with discipline it willbe great and rewarding even if boring sometimes, with indiscipline you get stomach ulcers, sleepless nights, and empty pockets...the choice is ours.

Hope we can choose wisely
  • #25
  • Mar 13, 2008 12:30pm Mar 13, 2008 12:30pm
Find a way to quantify when and how you add to a position. Ie: 5% ATR over resistance, or 30 pips profit, or 50% fib level, etc. That way you only add to a position when you're in profit and at a specific quantifiable level. Prevents you from adding to losing positions.

I use this combined with pre-set buy stop or sell stops to do the job, that way I never have to manually do it and never risk adding to a losing position.
  • #26
  • Mar 13, 2008 12:48pm Mar 13, 2008 12:48pm
the easy way to avoid this issue; and i'm not saying i'm immune, is to use two reasons to enter every trade. when those two reasons reverse or if you find two of your other significant criteria say reverse then you exit. i don't close and reverse because if i was wrong 30 minutes ago it's likely the market is adjusting to news that i have not yet read.
It really is that easy.
  • #27
  • Edited 12:52pm Mar 13, 2008 12:50pm | Edited 12:52pm
Quoting fsiltd
This is the best medicine.
I was fortunate enough to start my "life" in the markets working with a man that gave lessons to Lucifer in how to be a b*stard.

I graduated Class of Tough-Love from the School of Hard Knocks.

Mind sending me a PM of some of these lessons given to Lucifer himself?
Humble Lifetime Member
  • #28
  • Mar 13, 2008 12:52pm Mar 13, 2008 12:52pm
My system gives me about 10 set-ups (entries) per day.
In stead of trading with 1 standard lot which my acc allows, i start off with 2 mini lots. I do not trade with visible stops but cut my losses very quick.
after each losing trade i increase my lot size to make up for the loss and to make profit. If you trade the GBP/JPY you can take quick profits and if you increase your lot size according to your own money management rules you can end each day with profit. While increasing your lot size you can even settlle for breakeven and start all over again with small lots. It is achievable.
Never Ever Give Up!
  • #29
  • Mar 13, 2008 1:15pm Mar 13, 2008 1:15pm
Lots of good advice.

I would decide on how many bad trades you will make in a day before calling it a day. My rule is 3 bad trades and I am done.

If you haven't got the discipline then trading is not for you.
The market reveals who we really are...
  • #30
  • Mar 13, 2008 1:20pm Mar 13, 2008 1:20pm
Quoting MMDealer
Hey guys,

I am going to keep this short and sweet. Many traders will read it, scoff, and continue on. I am hoping a few people who have experienced my problem, overcome the problem, and gone on to be successfull traders - will impart some wisdom, or better yet - give me a swft kick up the backside.

I trade very well for a period of time. I follow my rules, i trade my signals, i consistenly make 0.5 - 4% per trading day. I work hard, i dont sleep much, im ALWAYS reading, learning, trying to improve my trading. Then, one day, ill overposition, the trade will go against me, ill add to it, and add to it. Then, beofre i know it, it has wiped out weeks of hard work. In one trade.

I have done this several times now. I wont go into anymore detail. Those with anything helpful, please share it with me. I need to break this damn cycle.

Cheers.
MM
yeah,...its a crazzy world,...funny that u went public,...i wouldnt...,...i would go back to smaller account, start doing some more hardwork,..and trade with that in mind,...it happen to me 2, but it happen also when i was wining,..thats the big problem, then u think u know it all, and that its easy to make money, yeah it is but its even more easy to loose it...:,...thats the problem,... so i dont try to average down not in this year... and try closing computer and then look the trade afterwards,...that way u accept the loss in someway, if not to stupid to fight the market,....so basicly,..

1. trade small
2. love what u do
3. close computer
its just money
  • #31
  • Mar 13, 2008 1:52pm Mar 13, 2008 1:52pm
  •  Dec1pher
  • | Joined Oct 2007 | Status: Deciphering the markets in realtime | 7 Posts
Hi MM, first off know that you are not alone. Ive gone through this recently and after 26 consecutive weeks of profits, because of stupid mistakes I've undone many many weeks of gains really fast.

The thing I've learned is not to place myself in the position of losing a large amount of my account at any given time. This makes it easier to recover, once I've gone crazy trading and blown my MM out the window. Always seems to happen after a nice long run (sigh). BUT focus on the fact that you are skilled enough to make regular consistent profits, and in time, like the other traders said, it will get easier and your blow outs will decrease in frequency and severity. Look at the long term and focus on consistency. This last blow out was only 10-15% of my account, last time it was 80%, so I'm improving!

You are close man, just hang in there. In trading, like life, you have to be ready and able to get back up when you get knocked down. These are the challenges we face on our quest to develop mastery of our craft.
  • #32
  • Mar 13, 2008 2:02pm Mar 13, 2008 2:02pm
Quoting Coach_Quincy
I have to strongly disagree with the notion of adding to winning trades. Your method's rules need to encompass both the entry AND the exit. If those rules need to be changed, then change them AFTER the trade, not while the position is open.

Either the rules are good or they aren't. Do what you have to to optimize them and then leave them alone and just follow them.

When your money is burning in front of your eyes, a rock-solid adherence to rules is your only life-line.

OK, I will grant you for scalping or day trading purposes, adding to or scaling into a position may not be advisable. And since it sounds like MMDealer is a day trader then I'll withdraw that suggestion.

But for clarity's sake, when adding to a winning position on higher timeframes (4 hours and above, which is what I trade), it's not a matter of 'changing the rules' during the trade. Scaling in is rule at each new signal when in profit (in my system) and is built into the method with proper money management. It's not like "well I'm up 10 pips now so I think I'll double up". It's adding to your position with a pre determined money/risk management strategy to maximize the profit that the trade is already in. So, different strokes.....

What several of us do agree on MMDealer, is that dollar cost averaging, or adding to a losing position, is not good. I tinkered around with a method several months ago that did that very thing, and it just didn't work for me.

I hope this all helps you. There are lots of good ideas here, and hopefully you can glean some positive information from it all.


Cheers,
Richard
  • #33
  • Mar 13, 2008 2:42pm Mar 13, 2008 2:42pm
I would agree that you problem seem to relate to discipline and not respecting your own trade plan. That might be the main area you might want to focus your attention onto.
  • #34
  • Mar 13, 2008 5:24pm Mar 13, 2008 5:24pm
Quoting Ash
Mind sending me a PM of some of these lessons given to Lucifer himself?
Well, hell's got a pretty tight NDA..., but next time I speak to him, I'll check if the 1000-year contract can be broken by now
Carpe Divitiae
  • #35
  • Mar 13, 2008 5:36pm Mar 13, 2008 5:36pm
1. Don't look to others, look to yourself. This has nothing to do with forums or others. It has everything to do with yourself and whether or not you sabotage yourself / allow yourself.

2. Simply don't ever deviate from your risk profile. No idea how much you use to make 4% a day, but if it's above 2% risk per entry simply try to restrict yourself to a more sensibly risk parameter and stick to that day in, day out.


3. See 1.

Stop looking for advice and start looking for reasons to do what you really want to do and stop doing what you don't want to do and discover the mechanisms behind it. And don't ask how. You know how. You just need to do.

My 2 cents.
Trust price. Know yourself.
  • #36
  • Mar 13, 2008 5:47pm Mar 13, 2008 5:47pm
For the record, I most money I have made in short periods was by exposing myself to extreme risk. The key was to recognize I was LUCKY and to take the money and run, and start all over again with house money. Since then I have been being more "systematic" and have found I can grind for a consistent profit. I started 2008 up and in one trade my account was down 30%. Now down 30% means I need to gain 50% to get back to break even. And I have done it...twice. lol You're not alone.
  • #37
  • Mar 13, 2008 5:56pm Mar 13, 2008 5:56pm
"Trading In the Zone" - Mark Douglas
Bundy's status today: "Waiting..."
  • #38
  • Mar 13, 2008 5:58pm Mar 13, 2008 5:58pm
suprised no-one has said this.

give yourself a maximum loss acceptable per day - like 5% for example - make it a hard rule that if your account is down by more than 5% you MUST close all positions and call it a day- come back tomorrow.

also, make it a rule that if you have closed trades and made your money for the day, dont give it back - i used to do this all the time - make say 40 pips in the morning then overtrade and give it away (and then some) in the afternoon.

make sure you feel the pain from the past when you gave back weeks of profit - then learn to feel that pain at your daily threshold.

takes some practice but it works after a few times.

hope this helps
https://linktr.ee/Soultrader
  • #39
  • Mar 13, 2008 6:05pm Mar 13, 2008 6:05pm
Quoting soultrader
suprised no-one has said this.

give yourself a maximum loss acceptable per day - like 5% for example - make it a hard rule that if your account is down by more than 5% you MUST close all positions and call it a day- come back tomorrow.
I didn't mention that kind of thing because imho a sensible MM approach already reduces total exposure to a maximum of 5% open risk at any one time.
I can see how one can lose 10-20% over a week or two, but not in a day.

And a sensible system shouldn't perpetually re-generate new trades after one entry fails(and I dare say it usually isn't the system but the trader).

--

IMHO it's mostly/all about the trader(you don't generate a >5% loss in a day without putting the risk on the table YOURSELF in the first place), not the system, hence my emphasis on that.

Setting limits for yourself etc pp doesn't have any meaning if you can't cope with yourself in the first place(you will just ignore your rules, regardless of what they are - isn't this the whole initial problem?), bringing me back again once more to - the trader(Have I mentioned it's all about the trader yet? Good!).

See my last post 1. & 3.

IMHO nothing is more important than getting that self-realization of what(are you doing / or: am I doing) and why(are you doing it / or: am I doing it) first.
Trust price. Know yourself.
  • #40
  • Mar 13, 2008 6:10pm Mar 13, 2008 6:10pm
very true SL, but at least if you made a rule it would be a starting point - because at the moment by doing what he's doing he aint breaking anything.

if he had a rule then at least he would knowhe's breaking it.

small steps if you know what i mean.
https://linktr.ee/Soultrader
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