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How much time did it take you to make progress?

  • #21
  • Apr 21, 2006 11:38am Apr 21, 2006 11:38am
Mrmikal,

I agree with you in that demo-trading doesnt deliver the emotional rush of real money trading. That's why I stated above that treating your demo trades very seriously is crucial. The trainee must understand that those trades are meaningful. If they cannot get that "seriousness" from demo-trading, then Im with you that opening a small mini account perhaps is the way to go.

The bottom line is not whether you're playing with demo money or with a $500 account, but rather that you treat them dead-serious like if they were a 100k dollars account. Otherwise there is no learning posible at all.
  • #22
  • Apr 21, 2006 12:11pm Apr 21, 2006 12:11pm
Quoting WTB
Mrmikal,

I agree with you in that demo-trading doesnt deliver the emotional rush of real money trading. That's why I stated above that treating your demo trades very seriously is crucial. The trainee must understand that those trades are meaningful. If they cannot get that "seriousness" from demo-trading, then Im with you that opening a small mini account perhaps is the way to go.

The bottom line is not whether you're playing with demo money or with a $500 account, but rather that you treat them dead-serious like if they were a 100k dollars account. Otherwise there is no learning posible at all.
I'll agree, if a person COULD attach themselves emotionally to a demo account, this would suffice, however, I just think it's not as practical in the real-world, because in the end, they will remind themselves it's just a game...ESPECIALLY a beginner (which is who we're dealing with in this thread). A seasoned intermediate/pro might be able to do this (and even so...I think it would be rare...my opinion, of course)...but a newbie? I don't know...emotionally, these are 2 totally different things.

Instead, I'm more suggesting that the newbie graduate from a $500 to a $5000 to a $50,000 account, gradually. Because to say that a newbie can go from a demo account (even after 3 years of trading) to a $50,000 account is a bit ludicrous to me. At some level, the amount of money the account starts with definitely has a psychological effect...it is really quite impossible to trade with impunity...it's ideal...but impossible. Unless of course, the money isn't yours. The psychological muscle must be flexed a lower doses in order to build upon what was learned. Starting with a small amount of money and building that capital is key.

Then again, it also has to do with risk tolerance...If I make $10 million a year, then I suppose having a $50,000 account would be the same as me making $100,000 a year and having a $500 account. So your personal risk tolerance is important. However, there's really no "good" transition point for a demo account to a funded account, in my opinion, because the risk tolerance is infinite (from $0 to $500 is not an infinite % increase)...however, if a newbie can learn to take $500 and turn it into $1000 using solid trading techniques...he/she may be willing to risk $1000 to try and make it $2000 and so on. The point is, this graduated affect helps to decrease the amount of risk involved while enabling a newer person to train under "real world" conditions.

This ALL my opinion, though...so, take it with a grain of salt...
  • #23
  • Apr 21, 2006 12:23pm Apr 21, 2006 12:23pm
Quoting mrmikal
I'll agree, if a person COULD attach themselves emotionally to a demo account, this would suffice, however, I just think it's not as practical in the real-world, because in the end, they will remind themselves it's just a game...ESPECIALLY a beginner (which is who we're dealing with in this thread). A seasoned intermediate/pro might be able to do this (and even so...I think it would be rare...my opinion, of course)...but a newbie? I don't know...emotionally, these are 2 totally different things.

Instead, I'm more suggesting that the newbie graduate from a $500 to a $5000 to a $50,000 account, gradually. Because to say that a newbie can go from a demo account (even after 3 years of trading) to a $50,000 account is a bit ludicrous to me. At some level, the amount of money the account starts with definitely has a psychological effect...it is really quite impossible to trade with impunity...it's ideal...but impossible. Unless of course, the money isn't yours. The psychological muscle must be flexed a lower doses in order to build upon what was learned. Starting with a small amount of money and building that capital is key.

Then again, it also has to do with risk tolerance...If I make $10 million a year, then I suppose having a $50,000 account would be the same as me making $100,000 a year and having a $500 account. So your personal risk tolerance is important. However, there's really no "good" transition point for a demo account to a funded account, in my opinion, because the risk tolerance is infinite (from $0 to $500 is not an infinite % increase)...however, if a newbie can learn to take $500 and turn it into $1000 using solid trading techniques...he/she may be willing to risk $1000 to try and make it $2000 and so on. The point is, this graduated affect helps to decrease the amount of risk involved while enabling a newer person to train under "real world" conditions.

This ALL my opinion, though...so, take it with a grain of salt...
I totally agree with what you are saying here. For me personally I find it very hard to demo trade, instead I have small spread betting account which I can risk very small amounts but I still know that it is my money in there and I am not going to deliberatly throw it away, (I may do it sometimes by mistakes, but that is part of the learning).
The hardest part of trading is the trader and we are all so differant. It took me 4 years to work out that I was the problem when trading and not any system I had come up with or copied, so I then spent the next 6 months traing my mind, and am now in the place I want to be, and finally able to trade with more confidence than ever before.
Stick around this forum and read as much as possible, the people here seem to speak so much truth that all anybody can do is learn from what is said.

Good luck.
  • #24
  • Apr 21, 2006 2:50pm Apr 21, 2006 2:50pm
Well I'm demo trading, and I'm pretty serious about it. Maybe because I'm very passionated now and have almost totally cut the urge to fool around - I did fool around when I was live before and it was sooo stupid. I use the capital I would trade in a normal live account with realistic risks. I'm starting to trade live with small quantities though besides my demo trading, just to anticipate the unknown emotional factors that I still have to resolve. Plan is to "grow" into a normal live account similar to my current demo account, gradually adding more capital and using higher quantities when the time is right.
  • #25
  • Apr 21, 2006 5:19pm Apr 21, 2006 5:19pm
IMHO, if you start in demo trading and can't consistently make money in a demo account then there is NO reason to open a live account. You must be able to make money in a demo account before going live. I think one of the biggest problems that beginners face is overtrading. When you overtrade, you lose.
  • #26
  • Apr 21, 2006 5:54pm Apr 21, 2006 5:54pm
Quoting nd1377
IMHO, if you start in demo trading and can't consistently make money in a demo account then there is NO reason to open a live account. You must be able to make money in a demo account before going live. I think one of the biggest problems that beginners face is overtrading. When you overtrade, you lose.
Overtrading. That is precisely why demo accounts, in my opinion, are less likely to teach you this quickly enough...if it's not your money, you're going to play with it. Like I said, if you risk some of your capital, if even only a small amount, you will find yourself less inclined to trade it.

Personally, it's better to be unsure of a trade and NOT in the market than the other way around.

Demo accounts serve their purpose by allowing you to get to know how best to use the platform to trade your system. It can even help solidify your system parameters, but it will never teach you to trade correctly. The moment you risk some real capital is the moment you begin to start questioning EVERYTHING, even your rules that you were so confident about in demo trading.

In some aspects, you are right...if you can't make money in a demo account, I suppose you have no business in a real account, but honestly...that's why I tout back-testing. You have to come to the table with a system already in hand...using a demo account to create a system only teaches young traders to over trade. Eventually, they forget what their rules are, or make up false rules on the millions of things they've tried. I would honestly, back-test a few years, and then forward test the next couple in order to find a system that works, and that you can trade. Then go to a demo account to see if you can manuever the platform enough to actually trade the system you've created...once that's done, honestly, I'd say pull the trigger on the live account...you should spend most of your time in back-testing/forward-testing mode during the system creation process...at least that's my philosophy.

Learn to trade your system...but it shouldn't be an experiment in profitability at this point...as many traders here state...most systems can be traded profitably, but what kills traders is the psychological aspect of trading. Demo trading shields you from that and can actually be counter-productive if you just grasp for a system out there. Having a capital account however small will attach you emotionally in ways a demo cannot.

Point taken on the whole profitability thing...it's important to find a system first before even attempting a trade.
  • #27
  • Aug 1, 2007 8:08am Aug 1, 2007 8:08am
Lots of great advice here, great thread.

I can't answer the question, I've been at forex full time since January, after dabbling with trading/investing for many years.

By all means, put some cash on the line. Psychology is a big factor and you'll never get that on a demo. This morning, I wanted to enter, and caught myself thinking, "if I'm wrong, it's not that much money -- WHOA MAN! Is this a good entry or not?" I looked again, and it was like a different chart in front of me. It wasn't a good entry at all.

Spud mentioned that it took him 2 years.

I have a friend who is a professional trader, and he said it took him about 2 years.

That 2 - 3 year number seems to come up pretty often, so if it takes that long and you blow a few thousand on courses and mini accounts, that's a pretty cheap education. Once you get it, you have it for life, and can do it from just about anywhere!
  • #28
  • Aug 1, 2007 7:13pm Aug 1, 2007 7:13pm
I'm at 1 year and counting. I guess that means I'm 'on track'. When I started I wanted to be up and running with live money in 6 months. LOL. It took me 10 months just to open up a live account.

Really though, when I get depressed about how long it is taking me it is nice to know that others who went before me took over a year as well.

So if you are a noob reading this, just be ready to put in the time to do this right.
  • #29
  • Aug 1, 2007 7:17pm Aug 1, 2007 7:17pm
Quoting avis
I'm new to the world of forex and trading in general. I heard of forex before but never really knew how to trade until i saw the 4ex made easy infomercial at 2am earlier in the week (and happened to go to their workshop the next day out of curiousity). Based on the posts from some forums, its a bit more complicated than the workshop had presented it.

In any case, I'm curious to find out how much time it took people from starting from scratch to being able to feel comfortable to move past trading on miniaccounts? Did you work with a mentor or self-taught? Do you think that their are any particular traits or skills that would be pertinent to forex trading? For instance, my background is in engineering and I have an MBA so I can see myself as a technical trader.
Started four years ago trading, had a mentor, blew through multiple five figure accounts. Now I'm finally consistent.

Most important thing you can do is know yourself. Know who you are, what your personality is, and trade that way. Second most important thing is to not be vengeful, because you will want to get back at the markets when you lose, double up your trade, and lose more money even faster.

If you can master those two things, you'll be in the five percentile that are actually successful at this business.

There's a lot of people just like yourself that are up at night watching infomercials and they think they can get rich quick. And regardless of what people say, that's exactly what they think. And they just become canon fodder real quick-like.

Look at how many people are registered on this forum. You rarely see 90% of them. Why? Because they failed. It sure ain't because they are successful. There are very very few.

Expect to take a good 6-8 years at this before you get good. And that's conservative.

Demo accounts are a waste of time, unless you are testing something. Open an account with 1K, blow through a few of those, and it's much much better than the pain I (and a lot of people) went through.
Mr. Trend
  • #30
  • Aug 1, 2007 9:54pm Aug 1, 2007 9:54pm
Avis, welcome to FX and these forums...

Re "... I'm curious to find out how much time it took people from starting from scratch to being able to feel comfortable to move past trading on miniaccounts? Did you work with a mentor or self-taught? Do you think that their are any particular traits or skills that would be pertinent to forex trading? For instance, my background is in engineering and I have an MBA so I can see myself as a technical trader..."

I started T/A about 7 yrs ago in stocks and 3-4 yrs ago in FX. I am still not making a real profit. I don't trade mini's, only standard lots, singular not plural!

I have a technical background and I think that has been something of a distraction to me as I now recognize that I spend too much time reading these forums and testing too many ideas for trade setups. I have created so many of my own ( based on all those here ) that I don't have one that I stay with !! I must emphasize however that reading IS a must. No one can trade without some study.

I am comfortable with the charts and most indicators, I believe that the less indics used the better ( No, I haven't found the magic two or three yet ). I did not have a mentor as I believe I can study for myself from books and forums. Maybe some folk prefer a mentor and that is OK as well.

"Pertinent traits or skills" would be ability to "see and train" one's eye to price action, particularly with respect to S/R levels. S/R levels are themselves an area which need a lot of practice. There is a thread somewhere which deals with this in depth, it's a "must" read.

Having a technical background is a help but not necessary, but to focus entirely on T/A is foolhardy. All FX traders must note the fundamental announcement times on a daily basis if they are trading intra day or short term. Even long term traders are wise to keep an eye on the fundamentals.

I hope this helps a bit...
Good Trading to All ---- fairwind
  • #31
  • Aug 2, 2007 12:22am Aug 2, 2007 12:22am
Quoting fairwind
I started T/A about 7 yrs ago in stocks and 3-4 yrs ago in FX. I am still not making a real profit. I did not have a mentor as I believe I can study for myself from books and forums. Maybe some folk prefer a mentor and that is OK as well.
I would recommend that you seriously get one. Why, after seven years, didn't you find someone to mentor you? Don't take this the wrong way, but maybe it's a problem with you thinking that you have the answers, and who in the world could teach you anything? I don't know -- I say that because over-confidence, or not admitting that after digging a hole for X number of years, that you need help. The reality is you do.

Anyway... a mentor is a must. I am convinced that a person just won't be successful without one.

I've had my mentor literally slap the s**t out of me because I made mistakes... he's done it twice... the second time my head rang for a good 24 hours.

I don't make too many mistakes anymore.

I don't necessarily recommend that type of mentorship... But some people need it.
Mr. Trend
  • #32
  • Aug 2, 2007 1:12am Aug 2, 2007 1:12am
Quoting Mr Trend
...
I wonder how many "Mentors" had Mentors.

I know I didn't have one and I Traded for roughly 10 years before I was convinced I knew what I was doing.

Mentoring FX is as new as FX itself.
  • #33
  • Aug 2, 2007 2:47am Aug 2, 2007 2:47am
Hi Bemac,

Thanks for your advise, I prefer this advise tho' .....

"... I may not always be right, but "I AM ALWAYS IN CHARGE."
{At least, of my own accounts.}"... ...."

...and I don't let any one slap me around.
Good Trading to All ---- fairwind
  • #34
  • Aug 2, 2007 5:29am Aug 2, 2007 5:29am
Quoting fairwind
...and I don't let any one slap me around.
Maybe he likes it. Who are we to judge.
  • #35
  • Aug 2, 2007 11:16am Aug 2, 2007 11:16am
Quoting Bemac
Mentoring FX is as new as FX itself.
You miss the point. MENTORING has nothing to do with a market. A mentor is there to guide you, to give you tidbits of information and help you along your way -- to be there as a psychological support more than anything.

Regardless, I think ten years is about right...
Mr. Trend
  • #36
  • Aug 2, 2007 11:18am Aug 2, 2007 11:18am
Quoting fairwind
Hi Bemac,

Thanks for your advise, I prefer this advise tho' .....

"... I may not always be right, but "I AM ALWAYS IN CHARGE."
{At least, of my own accounts.}"... ...."

...and I don't let any one slap me around.
Mentoring has nothing to do with anyone controlling your accounts. Perhaps that's an issue for you.
Mr. Trend
  • #37
  • Aug 2, 2007 11:31am Aug 2, 2007 11:31am
Quoting Mr Trend
You miss the point. MENTORING has nothing to do with a market. A mentor is there to guide you, to give you tidbits of information and help you along your way -- to be there as a psychological support more than anything.

Regardless, I think ten years is about right...
There are loads of mentors on this forum who give psychological support and advise.
The only thing the forum can't do is beat you up when you make a mistake... but I think I prefer it that way.
  • #38
  • Aug 2, 2007 6:19pm Aug 2, 2007 6:19pm
That looks like a pretty small island you're on there MrTrend.

By what you say, FF Itself is a Mentor. I think the question was in hopes of a 1:1 ratio.
  • #39
  • Aug 2, 2007 6:52pm Aug 2, 2007 6:52pm
Quoting Bemac
That looks like a pretty small island you're on there MrTrend.
Yah... I don't play well with others.
Mr. Trend
  • #40
  • Aug 2, 2007 6:55pm Aug 2, 2007 6:55pm
Quoting Mr Trend
Yah... I don't play well with others.
That's cool. Make your own decisions.

btw... Do you play well with yourself? {Please don't answer}:
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