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VantagePoint discussion thread

  • #1,141
  • Jul 16, 2007 11:23pm Jul 16, 2007 11:23pm
[quote=GJP;1496569]
Quoting clockwork71
all i know is that it is rated as "SCAM" at forexbastards.com, which I have found to be fairly reliable.

I'm getting that feeling myself clockwork. Too many people on here too gushy about it. My gut feeling tells me they are involved in some way with Vantagepoint.
GJP.................you may want to have your "gut" examined. To the best of my knowledge, the people who have posted favorably here at FF about VP are not "involved" with the company (I'm certainly not and you've read my posts, you know they are not "gushy"; just objective observations about what I consider a great trading tool). And why shouldn't I write favorably about VP? I have it, use it and make money with it. What more do you want?
  • #1,142
  • Jul 16, 2007 11:47pm Jul 16, 2007 11:47pm
[quote=BeachBum;1496689]
Quoting GJP

GJP.................you may want to have your "gut" examined. To the best of my knowledge, the people who have posted favorably here at FF about VP are not "involved" with the company (I'm certainly not and you've read my posts, you know they are not "gushy"; just objective observations about what I consider a great trading tool). And why shouldn't I write favorably about VP? I have it, use it and make money with it. What more do you want?
What seems to be your problem? If your happy with it that's fine. Why so touchy? If somebody else chooses not to use it, that's there decision. Do you intend to come on here every time somebody chooses not to use Vantagepoint and defend it. Why? Interesting link for you. http://www.forexbastards.com/public/...tradertech.com
  • #1,143
  • Jul 17, 2007 8:24am Jul 17, 2007 8:24am
Quoting GJP

What seems to be your problem? If your happy with it that's fine. Why so touchy? If somebody else chooses not to use it, that's there decision. Do you intend to come on here every time somebody chooses not to use Vantagepoint and defend it. Why? Interesting link for you. http://www.forexbastards.com/public/...tradertech.com
My only "problem" is reading comments by the "uninformed" about any topic that is not based on the facts or personal experience, whether it is VP or something else. I am familiar with the so-called "reviews" at Forexbastards; some of them appear unbiased, some do not. But I prefer to base my opinions and comments on what I have learned from those I know and trust as well as my own experiences. If you read my posts, you will learn this true about any topic I choose to discuss here at FF, not just VP. As I posted earlier; VP is a powerful trading tool when used by those who have put in the time to learn how to use it effectively. Therefore, for the benefit of those who may read this thread seeking objective observations, I have chosen to add comments based on my experience and not some "gushy" or "gut" feeling. And I don't think that makes me "touchy".
  • #1,144
  • Jul 17, 2007 12:06pm Jul 17, 2007 12:06pm
I'm sure Vantagepoint will be very happy with your response on their behalf. Lol
  • #1,145
  • Jul 17, 2007 1:48pm Jul 17, 2007 1:48pm
Let me tell you of my personal experience with vantage point. I was formerly a broker and I had about 30 clients over the course of 2 years, who used the Vantage Point software to trade various currency and commodity markets. They all had the same excitement as they opened an account, giddy at the prospect of winning on 80% of trades. I couldn't believe the absurd amount of money that they all spent on the software. Some placed their trades through me, other placed them online. The account sizes ranged from $200K all the way down to $3,000 and everything in between. What were the results. Every one of my 30 Vantage Point clients blew there accounts out by following the Vantage Point signals.
Maybe your experience has been one of untold profits, riches, and 80% accurate trades. But 100% of the clients I had, that traded exclusively with Vantage Point, lost the majority of their account. Think twice before ponying up your money for VP.
  • #1,146
  • Jul 17, 2007 1:51pm Jul 17, 2007 1:51pm
Quoting jordancash
Let me tell you of my personal experience with vantage point. I was formerly a broker and I had about 30 clients over the course of 2 years, who used the Vantage Point software to trade various currency and commodity markets. They all had the same excitement as they opened an account, giddy at the prospect of winning on 80% of trades. I couldn't believe the absurd amount of money that they all spent on the software. Some placed their trades through me, other placed them online. The account sizes ranged from $200K all the way down to $3,000 and everything in between. What were the results. Every one of my 30 Vantage Point clients blew there accounts out by following the Vantage Point signals.
Maybe your experience has been one of untold profits, riches, and 80% accurate trades. But 100% of the clients I had, that traded exclusively with Vantage Point, lost the majority of their account. Think twice before ponying up your money for VP.
Well said
  • #1,147
  • Jul 17, 2007 3:03pm Jul 17, 2007 3:03pm
Quoting jordancash
The account sizes ranged from $200K all the way down to $3,000 and everything in between. What were the results. Every one of my 30 Vantage Point clients blew there accounts out by following the Vantage Point signals.
Any person who "blows" $200K on a single trading system, software package, strategy, method or anything else that has to do with trading, has IMO, problems that are deeper seated than their choice of "how" to trade.
  • #1,148
  • Jul 17, 2007 4:17pm Jul 17, 2007 4:17pm
I am very familiar with VatagePoint. There is no real benefit & you can compare any crossovers to any EMA crossover & get the same results. You can even do better using the Fozzy method & many crossovers will be before VP. As for the next day highs & lows you can come close using ATR values and guess just as accurately.
  • #1,149
  • Jul 17, 2007 4:46pm Jul 17, 2007 4:46pm
I am not sure I have a right to post anything here, as I have never used VP.
What turns me off right away is though, is that they don`t offer a trial period.
I asked the rep that hounded me on the phone week after week.(another bad sign in my opinion) why there was no demo and he could not come up with anything that made sense to me.
One would think that if they had a product that was any good they would not be afraid to offer a trial period.
  • #1,150
  • Jul 17, 2007 4:53pm Jul 17, 2007 4:53pm
I have never used the software either, but what has me a little concerned is of all the pros and cons for this software, only the people who have used it and liked it have posted actual profits with it in this thread. All of the posters who have disparaged the software, not one has posted any type of loss statement or any other proof at all. just a claim of dislike...

I would probably never buy the software, because it is not something I am interested in. I have no need of it. But in an effort to be somewhat empirical, one would think the detractors could show some evidence, as the proponents have...

Just my thoughts on it...
  • #1,151
  • Jul 17, 2007 4:57pm Jul 17, 2007 4:57pm
I wasn't implying that anyone here was working for Vantage, just commenting on how it is rated. And YES.....like I said, I think some of the ratings are skewed on forexbastards.com

But lets be honest, if you would just invest 3000 in a mini-account, and learn yourself how to trade, you could save the money, and avoid paying for the feed is my point.

I FIRMLY believe that starting out with a mini or micro account is the way to go for longevity. If you learn it yourself, the sky could be the limit.

As for black box systems, (I Believe that's the term) I think the only ones making any serious money are the ones selling them.

I cannot speak from any experience with it personally, and YES I admit that. BUT - you have to admit that there are plenty of other systems out there for sale that don't work.

The fastest computer in the world is between your ears.

Please don't let this start an argument, but this thing makes me think of FREEDOM ROCKS. And the reason so many people tout how great that is - MLM, most people that buy it, also sell it. So I think that is what our friend may have thought, and considering this is Forex, that's not a stretch. (More criminals in Forex than the US Prison System.)

I understand it predicts moving averages out into the future, and daily ranges, etc. But for some of us, we have learned that where a price used to be isn't important, unless it is a place of resistance or support.

I personally have found my trading to become MUCH MUCH better after getting rid of the pretty squiggly lines. So for me, even if it were 300, as opposed to 3000, it still would be expensive.

I believe anything worth doing, is worth working at, and spending the time to learn.

It may well be that you are a good and successful trader. But then again, I am willing to bet there are a lot of people out there that blindly follow this thing and get hurt. You may have something they don't, experience. You may know what is a low probability signal.

Peace.
  • #1,152
  • Jul 17, 2007 5:01pm Jul 17, 2007 5:01pm
clockwork71

Now that was a informative post. I enjoyed the logic and the points put across...

Thanks,
  • #1,153
  • Jul 17, 2007 5:39pm Jul 17, 2007 5:39pm
Quoting smjones
I have never used the software either, but what has me a little concerned is of all the pros and cons for this software, only the people who have used it and liked it have posted actual profits with it in this thread. All of the posters who have disparaged the software, not one has posted any type of loss statement or any other proof at all. just a claim of dislike...

I would probably never buy the software, because it is not something I am interested in. I have no need of it. But in an effort to be somewhat empirical, one would think the detractors could show some evidence, as the proponents have...

Just my thoughts on it...

The reason they profited is not Vantagepoint though - that is what I have found. I can prove to you that any system that has been posted here does not work long term. I have backtested all manner of combinations and none of them really pass muster.
The traders who make money with it long term trade in conjunction with its indicators but not based on it. The traders who traded solely based on it made money when the market was trending and there system was a crossover system or made money when the market was ranging and their system was a range trading system.
Bear in mind most traders post the successes but when they suffer the drawdown and losses they do not post..Let's not forget all the systems that were posted here - is anybody still trading them? ...
  • #1,154
  • Jul 17, 2007 10:13pm Jul 17, 2007 10:13pm
Quoting zarni
Let's not forget all the systems that were posted here - is anybody still trading them? ...
It's pointless to debate the value or lack thereof associated with having VP; there is a lot of information on this topic at TraderChat.com.

But Zarni has raised a question that I believe should be answered by someone who posted a system and still uses it. I was one of the traders who originally joined with FijiTrader and a few others to construct a type of "set & forget" system using Predicted Highs and Lows provided daily by VP. I still use that same basic system. I have refined it a great deal; including the use of an MT4 EA for backtesting various trading combinations based on the P/H and P/L. And since VP improved the accuracy of their predictions, the system I have is even more robust.

Many here at FF know that I am also a Fozzy-style trader (a system that works great for me). I have been able to combine my Fozzy trading techniques with VP predictions in a way that produces excellent results. And it's true; I don't need VP to be a successful Fozzy trader. But I have it and it enhances my overall trading activity.

clockwork 71 makes some great points in his last post. However what he says is not true for every trader (it most likely is for him and his trading style). That's one of the reasons traders are successful with different methods (or NOT successful in many cases). Some trade technically, some fundamentally, others with a combination of both. Some like "Black Boxes", some don't. It's the variety in this world that often makes things interesting; and the same is true in the world of Forex trading. Some will spend the money for VP and be very profitable. Some will buy it, misuse it, lose their money and blame the software (which reminds me of the people who blame their broker when they lose money). And a few will criticize without any personal experience in using VP.
  • #1,155
  • Jul 17, 2007 11:25pm Jul 17, 2007 11:25pm
I guess the thing that is still bugging me is the question.... why if it is so successful ,and in light of the rather high cost won`t they offer a trial period?
This is not a put down I am genuinely curious ,I`d buy it if I liked it..
  • #1,156
  • Jul 18, 2007 5:52am Jul 18, 2007 5:52am
Quoting BeachBum
If that's all Vantage Point was, no-one would buy it in spite of what xPiP posted about marketing. Their marketing is not that good!

A little time spent at TraderChat.com will educate the uninformed that many traders use VP successfully and profitably. Why not take a little time and check it out; there are a number of FF members who are glad we did!
Yes they would buy it and they do.Its not about marketing its about clever sales tactics.Hundreds have wanted there money back and not got it.Some have but they got lucky.$3900? Well.....that all depends on the salesman at the time how much he feels like making off you.
Im sure if you put your mind to it you could make a profit from throwing a coin but that doesn't make the coin worth $3900 does it.
It is not worth what they charge I know someone who used to sell it and they even told me its a scam.If I didnt know them so well they probably would've tried to sell it to me.There is nothing in it better than free indicators on free charts and anyone who says so is probably trying to sell it themselves.
  • #1,157
  • Jul 18, 2007 8:03am Jul 18, 2007 8:03am
Quoting randomlight
I guess the thing that is still bugging me is the question.... why if it is so successful ,and in light of the rather high cost won`t they offer a trial period?
This is not a put down I am genuinely curious ,I`d buy it if I liked it..
I'm not speaking for VP or trying to sell their product (regardless of what mike43234 believes), but your question deserves an answer.

On the website of Market Technologies, they offer a fifteen day "trial period". To be very candid about it; that's not enough time to learn how to use the software correctly. All that fifteen days does for you is provide an opportunity to examine how the software operates. You "like what you see" and decide to continue with it, learning how to use it as an effective trading tool............or you "don't like what you see" and cancel your purchase. But that's about all you will accomplish in that period of time.............unless you have done extensive research at TraderChat.com, know how you want to VP trade and are ready to devote yourself full-time to using the software during that "trial period". That's "possible", but unlikely for most traders.

I have had VP for almost two years and I am still learning new ways to use it; because new features have been added, the results improve with upgrades and the TraderChat.com website is full of trading methods/systems/ strategies that one person alone could never develop. There are now so many posted ways to use VP, it's a challenge sometimes to keep up with and decide which method I want to add to my trading regimen.

People throw real money away because they don't know how to trade. Others buy "gimmick" trading tools on e-Bay and elsewhere. I'm not suggesting anyone buy this software; but I DO suggest that if you have an open-minded interest, spend some time reading about how others use it successfully at TraderChat.com.
  • #1,158
  • Jul 18, 2007 9:08am Jul 18, 2007 9:08am
Theree is no trial period. It is a refund policy -$500 for returning it. They put the $500 in so people wouldn't try to return it all.
They claim that a large part of their is business is from people that come back & get more categories for $2500 a piece which is a lie. They run there sales like they run their business. They have high sales rep turnover & almost all of their new business is from new customers. Have you ever tried to get your sales rep back on the phone 6 months after they sold it to you? Not a high likelihood.
  • #1,159
  • Jul 18, 2007 9:18am Jul 18, 2007 9:18am
Quoting BeachBum
I'm not speaking for VP or trying to sell their product (regardless of what mike43234 believes), but your question deserves an answer.

On the website of Market Technologies, they offer a fifteen day "trial period". To be very candid about it; that's not enough time to learn how to use the software correctly. All that fifteen days does for you is provide an opportunity to examine how the software operates. You "like what you see" and decide to continue with it, learning how to use it as an effective trading tool............or you "don't like what you see" and cancel your purchase. But that's about all you will accomplish in that period of time.............unless you have done extensive research at TraderChat.com, know how you want to VP trade and are ready to devote yourself full-time to using the software during that "trial period". That's "possible", but unlikely for most traders.

I have had VP for almost two years and I am still learning new ways to use it; because new features have been added, the results improve with upgrades and the TraderChat.com website is full of trading methods/systems/ strategies that one person alone could never develop. There are now so many posted ways to use VP, it's a challenge sometimes to keep up with and decide which method I want to add to my trading regimen.

People throw real money away because they don't know how to trade. Others buy "gimmick" trading tools on e-Bay and elsewhere. I'm not suggesting anyone buy this software; but I DO suggest that if you have an open-minded interest, spend some time reading about how others use it successfully at TraderChat.com.
BB I respect you as a trader but although I bought VP I think it was a waste of time. I have spent a lot of time trying to make it work with automated backtesting. The only way I have managed to produce *consistent* results on backtest is to feed it into another neural net. However, on forward that fails at some point.
VP for me is not more worthwhile than a combination of other indicators and I actually do much better with my non-vp systems. Also I really do not appreciate there heavy handed sales tactics. If they would offer a trial then it would be OK. But they know that not many people will buy at after trying it out...
  • #1,160
  • Jul 18, 2007 1:51pm Jul 18, 2007 1:51pm
You do your homework & develop a trading plan around its' indicators. Since I started using VP 18 months ago, I have consistently produced a 10% monthly return ( 5%-21% range)on my equity with only one loosing month. VP does give you an edge in the market & you can make money provided you employ good money management & avoid using it for scalping purposes. VP is designed for short-term position trading where you capture a good portion of the trend.To date, I have created 33 VP trade entry set ups on the 14 FX pairs where they offer data. These trade entries work on some pairs, not others.For VP users who visit this site, here is one example:
Pair... AUDJPY
Enter: Following two inside "Phigh/Plow" days where the price bars do not
touch either extreme,enter into a buy position provided:
1) Predictive Trend Short has made a higher-high.
2)Predictive Trend Short> Predictive Trend Medium
3)Strength, Phd, &Pld>0
Exit: At next day's close(5:00 PM EST)
Results:
The past 11 times this entry set up in 2006-07, it produced
10 wins & 1 loss. Net gain: 835 pips.

My advice: Rather than bash the software or the company sales tactics, check out the product yourself.
If anyone would like further info on these VP trade set ups, feel free to "PM"
me... or go to TraderChat.com

Doc
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