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How to be a trader for a company?

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  • Post #41
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  • Jul 4, 2007 5:14am Jul 4, 2007 5:14am
  •  Trader888
  • Joined Jun 2007 | Status: Member | 56 Posts
FXNewbie 71,

Long term can range from weekly to yearly. I had a look at the market I was interested in and decided where this market should go given the current situation. Take the US market for instance it goes through waving interest rate expectations. At the moment the expectation is flat with a very small bias for higher rates. Now look for a market where the expectation is for increasing rates...there you have a long term view - for as long as your view of interest rates in these two locales stay the same the currency should be traded in a single direction. So you try and trade in the direction of the long term. Yes the carry trade unwinding would have been very scary on the yen but I was not into trading anymore and as far as I can see much of it has been made back again. So if you had a feel for that market you probably would have stayed out until the unwinding talk was finished and started building your position again. Now when will my long term view change...well either the economics must prove it (news items) or the market must drop below the carry trade scare level or Japan must surprise us with a sudden rate hike. REMEMBER how surprised everyone was a while back when the GBP unexpectedly raised rates when nobody expected it? Look where it is now against the USD - great long term view example and great example of trading in the direction of the long term view...yes it did indeed take a while and it made some pullbacks but the view was right IN THE LONG TERM!

To trade this view on a daily basis is complicated but the more cash you have the easier. Think about it in this way. If you believe on the monthly chart that the market is moving higher then given 20/21 trading days in a month then surely for the month to end a BULL (open lower than close) then out of this 20 days at least 1 day must close higher than the highest open of the entire month up to that point. So even if you just sit and wait until you see a nice pullback on the dailies and then start going long then sooner or later you will see the bull trend resuming. The secret is to start your posi normal and then as soon as it goes against you by your tolerance to cut some of it and as soon as it starts going your way to add more and as long as your direction is confirmed you add more and more, until you are at full limit by the time your view is confirmed. I have so many times seen newbies take a few pips profit just to feel good about making a profit while they add to a loser or even let it go against them big time and then start adding to the loser...I have seen nobody make money in this way yet...

I typically took about $500 a pip position and if the market goes against me by 200-250 pips i would cut 1 bar then every 100 pips down i would cut another 1 until either my position is closed or it goes back in my direction i would add $200 a pip to my position every 50 pips in my favour. If you can get the overall larger trend right then you can make money this way. Just note that these values (200 pips 100 pips etc) are not absolute values I might see ranges that I like and these might be 400 pips away so I might take a smaller position initially to ensure I can comfortably sit until those levels are reached should my position be wrong. So I dont get squeezed out of a position. This cause about 10-15% drawdowns when calculated against budget to be reached. Its not always easy and sometimes its just better to wait and see...I however liked to be in the market as much as possible because then you really focused on where it is. Not trading with my own money made it very easy to throw a line in the water just to see what would happen. Many a time that was the start to a great trade and sometimes it went against me but still managing it properly reduced the loss, although still a loss. It wasn't my money...that helped a lot. So if I can be permitted to give another piece of advice to newbies: DONT TRADE WITH MONEY YOU LOVE.

I once tried to explain to my wife how it feels to trade, how it feels to make money and to lose money. I went to draw some crispy $100 bills at the bank and told her to get the same amount from her own account. I told her we are going to play a bit of heads and tails tossing a coin. If she wins she gets one of my hundreds if I win I get one of hers. She won 3 times in a row and was smiling from ear to ear taking $300 off me, promising me a great night for being so generous! Then she lost, I took $100 from her and promptly tore it to pieces. She was sitting there open mouthed. The look on her face was nasty: "What the ...k are you doing? Thats my money!" I explained to her that no, in fact, it was still some of the money she won off me, and asked her if she wanted to continue playing? She looked at her hand of bills and took the 2 remaining bills that she won from me and put them seperately from her stash. She wanted to continue but clearly now she had a plan. I won again and ripped it up then she won 3 times in a row and was smiling again. She smelt money! Then I won it all back and continued ripping it up. Now she only had her own stash left. I asked her whether she wanted to continue and she said yes after almost starting to cry due to her total involvement in this "game". I asked if she was going to answer her cellphone ringing for the third time...you can imagine her answer. I won again and ripped into the first of her $100's. She started shaking. Shame. She won and I could see the smile coming back. She lost another 3 times in a row and was begging me to stop ripping the money and to please give her back her money...She suddenly understood what I went through on a daily basis. Expensive exercise but at least she understood me better and it helped our marriage a lot. Dont do this exercise with $1 bills it wont have the same effect :-))

Hope this helped.
 
 
  • Post #42
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  • Jul 4, 2007 5:51am Jul 4, 2007 5:51am
  •  TurtleOnion
  • | Joined Jan 2007 | Status: Member | 154 Posts
Trader888, great sharing, thanks! Maintaining a balance lifestyle is on my checklist regardless what stages I may be in... to avoid falling into the "extremist" category (trying hard though at times)... The common problems that the world is facing now partly cause by the extremists of different categories in different levels... So, may we all strive to live a balance lifestyle and make this world a better place to live for everyone...

 
 
  • Post #43
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  • Jul 4, 2007 6:01am Jul 4, 2007 6:01am
  •  SeekingLight
  • Joined Jul 2006 | Status: Charts + PA > * | 3,251 Posts
Quoting Trader888
Disliked
"What the ...k are you doing? Thats my money!"
Ignored

Hey, that's what I tend to scream and my TFT and charts at times
J/K.

Man, that poor wife! ;P

Makes you feel for the girl =)
But like you said, I think it may have been the single most poignant ways of illustrating and showing what trading can mean...

Man, how come all these "veterans" have these great stories to tell and I dont! ;p
Trust price. Know yourself.
 
 
  • Post #44
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  • Jul 4, 2007 7:48am Jul 4, 2007 7:48am
  •  Trader888
  • Joined Jun 2007 | Status: Member | 56 Posts
Then of course the lifestyle of a trader sometimes is not for everyone.

Drugs do play a role with some traders and the drug of choice for most was cocaine. No, I have not used it ever before and will never. I know my personality and it is an addictive one. I can very easily become addicted to anything. At least my only poison at the moment is smoking.

I have had some weird experience. One I can tell about was when I and 3 other traders went to a casino "just for the afternoon". It turned out to be for the whole night into the next morning and by seven I phoned the office to tell them we will be a bit late and ohh by the way...wheres the market. We continued gambling on the blackjack tables right into the evening and when most of us couldn't stay awake anymore we left. Those hours of gambling was a nightmare but strangely enjoyable, but I was still a junior guy and had to stay or lose face (yeah I know peer pressure). I didn't lose any money (probably because I didn't bet a lot) but I saw money flowing out of accounts like crazy. It really was a crazy 2 days and that was when I first met with drugs in the workplace. Dont think everybody use it but there is some just like in any other job. The only difference is in this job they could really afford it.

Money also becomes meaningless to a large degree. If you make or lose $100,000 a day without blinking its really hard to complain about paying $2000 a night for a weekend getaway. Now looking back that was crazy spending. I remember the one time there was a guy who wanted to sell his old vintage merc...The one guy interested was a collector and really interested in buying the car and they agreed on price etc. Then another trader (who had a fight with the collector, because the collector apparantly had an affair with his girlfriend) came to hear of it and offered the seller more money so they bid each other up until the collector gave up and left very angry. So what did the buyer do? The next morning he parked the merc in the collectors parking space and banged it up with a cricket bat in several places. The look on the other guys face when he saw the banged up merc was priceless.

I asked the buyer why he had done something so stupid and senseless? His answer was: "Because I can". So again money makes one lose perspective on many things more important than just being able to do it.

That brings me to another philosophical question. I postulate that if 100 random people win $1mil then within 2 years 90% of the winners will again be dirt poor. Why? Simply because wealth is not meant for all. Some people will simply kill themselves if they are given that amount of money (drinking, drugs, fast cars, dangerous holidays, aids etc). They are not trained from birth how to handle money and we think differently about it.

So if you were to win $1mil what would you do?
 
1
  • Post #45
  • Quote
  • Edited Jul 23, 2007 3:19pm Jul 4, 2007 9:54am | Edited Jul 23, 2007 3:19pm
  •  fxnewbie 71
  • | Joined Dec 2006 | Status: Member | 118 Posts
Quoting Trader888
Disliked
FXNewbie 71,

Hope this helped.
Ignored
holy crap!! u trade a pip $500!! u r indeed a master and big timer! How often do u look at the chart?
 
 
  • Post #46
  • Quote
  • Jul 4, 2007 10:10am Jul 4, 2007 10:10am
  •  the_wizard
  • | Commercial Member | Joined Jan 2007 | 1,442 Posts
This guy needs to be stickied!

This is phenomenal stuff.

I can't get enough of this.

Legendary posts.
Please note: I cannot respond to PM's but you can email me via my profile.
 
 
  • Post #47
  • Quote
  • Jul 4, 2007 10:50am Jul 4, 2007 10:50am
  •  Mr Trend
  • Joined Apr 2006 | Status: Mmmm pips. | 1,418 Posts
Quoting Trader888
Disliked
So if you were to win $1mil what would you do?
Ignored
I'd steal your wife -- Robert Redford style yo.

Mr. Trend
 
 
  • Post #48
  • Quote
  • Jul 4, 2007 10:52am Jul 4, 2007 10:52am
  •  ForXspirit
  • | Joined Mar 2007 | Status: Member | 6 Posts
Trader888,
Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experiences. I have questions, but I need to make sure they make sense before I post them. I would love to try that coin flipping game with my wife, but I remembered that it is illegal to deface or destroy legal tender. Well...... in my part of the World anyway, so that's not an option for me, unfortunately.

Cheers.
 
 
  • Post #49
  • Quote
  • Jul 5, 2007 3:48am Jul 5, 2007 3:48am
  •  luqmanz
  • | Joined Nov 2006 | Status: Member | 690 Posts
Trader888,
Nice story there, btw what pairs did you traded ?
 
 
  • Post #50
  • Quote
  • Jul 5, 2007 5:22am Jul 5, 2007 5:22am
  •  Trader888
  • Joined Jun 2007 | Status: Member | 56 Posts
Luqmanz,

What pairs? I never focused exclusively on specific pairs. I traded what I perceived at that time to be "trending" pairs. I remember doing some work on gbpjpy eurjpy eurgbp nzdusd and also on the emerging pair usdzar. If you ask my opinion right now I would favour USD crosses as the rest of the world seems to be lagging the last few rate hikes in the US and the US is becoming a bit stagnant at the moment. I think emerging market cross US offer some sustainable possible trends at the moment. (Disclaimer: trade whatever you like this is not intended as trading advice but merely an observation).

This question of "what pairs" is funny because I have seen q's on this forum asking exactly that on so many "systems" it becomes laughable same with the question "what timeframe".

The truth is - it doesn't matter. Today the gbp will have a personality the same as what the jpy had 10 years ago or 1 year ago. Things change over time you cannot ever build a system around a currency and then say - "but it doesn't work on the usdjpy" that is not true - it is not that it doesn't work on the usdjpy the truth is that it doesn't work on the market characteristics exhibited by the usdjpy at that moment and as soon as your pair that it does work on changes its personality to usdjpy "characteristics" your system is worthless. Thats why so many systems start out great and have many followers in the beginning but over time it fails. The markets change and thats the simple truth.

If you think about some of your profitable trades - no matter what currency or timeframe - how was your money made? You entered and the market moved in your direction - the more the market moved in your direction the more you made - if you trade in the direction of the trend you make money NO MATTER WHAT CURRENCY OR TIMEFRAME. That is also one of the reasons why the shorter timeframes are so difficult to trade - nobody really knows what will happen from morning to evening but if the current expectations persist then the gbp will close higher on 31 December than it is now. So it is easier to go long the dips on a larger timeframe because you back your decision with a long term trend.

If it was possible to accurately predict an up or down day then and only then something shorter than the daily can become profitable on a sustainable level. I am excluding scalping a few pips on the 5minute chart from this assessment because I believe the market becomes more random the shorter the timeframe and even in randomness there is order that can be exploited. The discipline and "luck" needed on the 5minute chart is however not worth the health risk - but it can be done.

Also having the long term trends at your back is much less stressfull than trying to buck the trend with a clever reversal trade - I have had many of these clever trades and they just cost me money. The market makes you think that this is the real reversal but just as soon as you take the trade she turns around and gives you a hiding.

Maybe the easier way to explain the strength of a longer timeframe trend is to explain about Paris Hilton, she is a celebrity at the moment and many people know her name today. How many people will know her name in 50 years from today? She is the short term trend. How many people will know who is Johann Sebastian Bach in 50 years from today? He is the long term trend! If you have to take a bet on who the most people in the world will know in 50 years from today who will you bet on? Yes, my friend, the long term trend will win every time so think about that next time you want to go in the direction of a short term pullback from a new high...

Of course during war (and other extended hardships) people will lose the trend completely. Go and ask someone in Angola who is Bach and not many will know and due to the media coverage of Paris Hilton more will know who she is, so the short term trend may persist in the short term but even in Angola in 50 years time more people will know who Bach is than people knowing who Paris Hilton WAS.

Hope this helped a bit.
 
 
  • Post #51
  • Quote
  • Jul 5, 2007 5:34am Jul 5, 2007 5:34am
  •  WTB
  • | Commercial Member | Joined Sep 2005 | 1,118 Posts
Quoting Trader888
Disliked
if you trade in the direction of the trend you make money NO MATTER WHAT CURRENCY OR TIMEFRAME.
Ignored
Thank you, thank you, thank YOU!

I have been saying those same words over and over and over on these forums yet many people insist in counter-trend trading for whatever reason. Perhaps the adrenaline rush?
 
 
  • Post #52
  • Quote
  • Jul 5, 2007 5:49am Jul 5, 2007 5:49am
  •  TurtleOnion
  • | Joined Jan 2007 | Status: Member | 154 Posts
Quoting Trader888
Disliked
Luqmanz,

Maybe the easier way to explain the strength of a longer timeframe trend is to explain about Paris Hilton, she is a celebrity at the moment and many people know her name today. How many people will know her name in 50 years from today? She is the short term trend. How many people will know who is Johann Sebastian Bach in 50 years from today? He is the long term trend! If you have to take a bet on who the most people in the world will know in 50 years from today who will you bet on? Yes, my friend, the long term trend will win every time so think about that next time you want to go in the direction of a short term pullback from a new high...

Go and ask someone in Angola who is Bach and not many will know and due to the media coverage of Paris Hilton more will know who she is, so the short term trend may persist in the short term but even in Angola in 50 years time more people will know who Bach is than people knowing who Paris Hilton WAS.

Hope this helped a bit.
Ignored
This is the most creative way to explain the trend concept I've come across so far...
 
 
  • Post #53
  • Quote
  • Jul 5, 2007 4:06pm Jul 5, 2007 4:06pm
  •  The Jedi
  • | Joined Mar 2007 | Status: A jedi seeks no title | 657 Posts
Trader888, you wouldn't happen to be Chinese would you? The only reason I ask is the 888 attached to your name.

Anyways, to the real meat of my post: I think your posts are the stuff of legend and I wish your story was in one of the Market Wizard books by Jack Schwager. To anyone else who has no idea what I'm talking about, GO READ THOSE BOOKS, they are simply phenomenal reading and I think they should be required reading for any new trader.

If you have any more anecdotes or stories, please post them as I eagerly enjoy reading them. You should get into the coaching business, you're really good at it whether you realise it or not.

If I had a million dollars, "I would invest half of it in low-risk mutual funds and then go to my friend Samir in securities with the rest and..." Ten points to the person who knows what I'm talking about. But if I really had a million dollars, I would trade with about 200k of it, and spend the rest on my house in Bora Bora and live like we should all live, free and easy.
Never underestimate the powers of the Force.
 
 
  • Post #54
  • Quote
  • Jul 5, 2007 7:19pm Jul 5, 2007 7:19pm
  •  luqmanz
  • | Joined Nov 2006 | Status: Member | 690 Posts
Quoting Trader888
Disliked
Luqmanz,

What pairs? I never focused exclusively on specific pairs. I traded what I perceived at that time to be "trending" pairs. ....
Hope this helped a bit.
Ignored
After reading that post, I know I'm on the right path. At that time, I just wanted to know how professionals work. Do they focus on 1-2 pairs or simply browse through all pairs and look for good opportunity. Thanks for the answer Trader888.

I agree that good method is applicable across any pairs. It's just a matter of waiting for the opportunity to present itself. The problem with newbies is they just dont wait, they jump on the gun, lose money and claim "this method doesn't work in xxx/xxx.
 
 
  • Post #55
  • Quote
  • Jul 5, 2007 7:39pm Jul 5, 2007 7:39pm
  •  Trader KGB
  • Joined Apr 2007 | Status: Member | 1,842 Posts
Quoting The Jedi
Disliked
If I had a million dollars, "I would invest half of it in low-risk mutual funds and then go to my friend Samir in securities with the rest and..." Ten points to the person who knows what I'm talking about.
Ignored
Office Space Who could forget that flick, one of my favorite comedies.
 
 
  • Post #56
  • Quote
  • Jul 5, 2007 8:09pm Jul 5, 2007 8:09pm
  •  forexboomer
  • | Joined Apr 2006 | Status: account supervisor | 87 Posts
Quoting FxJarhead
Disliked
Why do you want to sell your soul and trade for a "company" and as a junior, better put on running shoes cause you are gonna be a go-fer.
Ignored
Why would u want to go work for a trading firm? They would never give you anything if you made them money?Nor would they keep you around if you lost/didnt make them any!!! Thus, you need running shoes, to make their coffees, fetch them donuts, etc etc. Find a way to get money from bank, or get a co-signed line of credit etc, trade for yourself, reward yourself for making money!!! if u paper trade a system for 6 months and see you are right 8 out of 10 times, you shouldnot be affraid to risk your hard earned money trading. I looked at it this way , I never put in a trade unless i am willing to put 10k my own money. Really changed my outlook on entering trades, since then i make money almost 90% of my trades.
Bottom line, find money, work for yourself, reward yourself, happy trading
 
 
  • Post #57
  • Quote
  • Jul 5, 2007 8:57pm Jul 5, 2007 8:57pm
  •  bodge
  • | Joined May 2006 | Status: Member | 193 Posts
Quoting xxfunguyxx
Disliked
Does anyone how to be a junior trader for a company? I mean I know theres a lot of positions for senior traders who earn alot...but require so much experience.

I guess I m asking how do traders who want to make trading their job get started? what position do they take up when u have no expereince...a stockbroker?
Ignored

Either land a job at a firm like Goldman Sacks, or become a proprietary trader.
Personally, I wouldn't do either, especially the latter.
 
 
  • Post #58
  • Quote
  • Jul 5, 2007 10:19pm Jul 5, 2007 10:19pm
  •  Aspen Trading
  • | Joined Jan 2007 | Status: Member | 103 Posts
Quoting xxfunguyxx
Disliked
Thanks guys...I know its a hard job to get

I think CFA is for financial analyst but not for being a trader.

Actually most FX trader jobs require 5-15 years of experience... thats what puzzles me...where do u get the experience? as what?

A lot of london sites say they recruit junior traders...but I couldnt find any in the US
Ignored
MBA from a top 5 school (Wharton, Harvard or London Business School) will open the doors to become a junior trader. Other than that, unless you know someone, you do not have a chance in hell at getting a trading job at a major bank...period.

I worked at Standard Charted Bank (certainly not a top-tier FX bank, but a decent one nonetheless) and worked my way up from institutional sales to an assistant market maker in the Deutschemark (early 90's). I still know a lot of guys/gals in the biz and they only recruit at the top schools.

Time to study for that GMAT - easiest way to open the door.

Dave
 
 
  • Post #59
  • Quote
  • Jul 6, 2007 2:03am Jul 6, 2007 2:03am
  •  Trader888
  • Joined Jun 2007 | Status: Member | 56 Posts
A question I see a lot on this forum is why don't the bank traders trade on their own account?

Well its very simple, its all about risk. If you trade for the bank they pay your salary and if you make money you get a bonus as well. So financially you have ZERO risk. If you make a mess and lose money for a year you will probably get 1 more year to recoup - the banks know traders dont perform well consistently so they allow a bit of a drawdown. Now if you still don't make it they will let you go and you simply move on to another bank or do something else - money lost -zero. If you traded your own account all the money you lost was your own. Its much easier to take risk with somebody else's money.

The second reason is simple. The motivation to "trade your own account" is many a time to have more free time and to not work for a boss...Well the truth is whether you trade for a bank or for yourself you are still your own boss. Nobody will force you to come in at 8 and leave at 4 - you are a proffesional trader you trade when the markets are ready to trade that might be for a full week and then nothing happens for 2 weeks. The fact is whether you trade for yourself or for a bank you will still have to spend the same amount of time infront of the markets if you want to be successfull. I have never had a deskhead give me trouble if I phoned in, in the morning and told him I had a long night I'm taking the day off. He knows and I know that it is MY budget and my head...the same goes if you trade your own account.

This "more free time" if you trade for yourself is actually funny. Many traders go golfing on Wednesdays and Fridays for "client" purposes and those are the days that they do much better in the markets as they simply phone in get a quote leave an order and they don't fiddle with the market any further. They are open minded when leaving the orders and do not stare blankly into a screen all day long. In their subconcious mind they have an overall view of the market a kind of gut-feel of where the market should go and as they are not looking at short term charts they basically back their long term view unknowingly. However then I must add these traders are bond and swap (interest rate) traders and therefore there is not really any short term trading going on in that market. So they have "more free time" while working for the bank and to top it off the bank pays for the golfing excersions!

So there really is no incentive to trade for yourself. It just doesn't make sense to leave the security of someone elses money, the constant flow of readily available market info and a group of traders to bounce ideas off. Why give that up just so that you have more free time or for you to be your own boss.

Hope this helped

No, I am not Chinese. The 888 in my nick is just because all the others I chose was already taken.
 
 
  • Post #60
  • Quote
  • Jul 6, 2007 2:57pm Jul 6, 2007 2:57pm
  •  Trader888
  • Joined Jun 2007 | Status: Member | 56 Posts
Seeing that it was NFP today I thought i would comment on it a bit.

I see many comments about brokers widening spreads et. Believe me this is normal and any market not only forex does this.

I have spoken to the guy at a website calling themselves forexbastardsdotcom and explained to them that the way they trade is impossible in the real world when trading with banks and that their subscribers are beind led down a false path. The fact is that even if you trade for a bank it is impossible to capture the initial movement on news and very few traders attempt this. Should you come to a bank with a trading record then they will look whether you trade anomilies or actual market moves. They know its impossible to capture the initial moves and they will filter that. News trading is impossible...what is possible is having a position before the announcement and if you are right your payoff is great if you are wrong you HOPE they executed your stop not to far from your STOP level....because you know you will get slippage.

I received a pm asking for who i traded, forgive me for not saying as i might say some things that might angry my previous employer so for the sake of speaking freely i will not mention my previous employer. However if you are willing to give me all your information and phone me so we can speak person to person i will give ou this information. What i can give you guys is that I used Goldman Sachs, Danske Bank and HSBC Hong Kong as brokers and had a constant feed to their prices at all times.

The great thing about having a personal relationship with your broker is using stops. MANY many a time I left a stop with my broker and the market moved pass my stop and I wasn't executed. I phoned immediately asking whats going on...the usual answer was that they thought my stop was too close to the market and the market could turn around. I was flabbergasted at this and wondered what my damage would be should the market continue against me and my stop was not executed. Well, the worst "slip" I ever had to take was 45 pips but I took that smiling given the many times that the market should have removed my stop but my broker kept me in and protected me until the market went my way. So thats one more lesson and reason to trade with a large bank...the broker protects you.

Go well and enjoy your weekends
 
 
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