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How to be a trader for a company?

  • #21
  • Jul 1, 2007 8:22pm Jul 1, 2007 8:22pm
Quote
You need a university/college education and you need to know the right people. Why would you bother working for a company? Most companies do not allow you to trade a personal account and pay you a wage + bonuses. If you are good enough to trade for a company or a bank you are good enough to trade for yourself and make more money.

To trade for a living, one needs to have an account that's big enough to generate income. You can gather the money in 2-3 years by working for banks and retire afterwards.

Assuming you have USD100k and you can make 20%-40% a year, your income is just 20k-40K a year. Work for bank and you make at least 60k a year.

Working for banks is not a bad idea at all.
  • #22
  • Jul 2, 2007 6:43am Jul 2, 2007 6:43am
Quoting luqmanz
Running for Olympics does not make a lot of $$$. I'm sure most runners dont have a diploma in Sport Sciences.
Nope, but they coach have a diploma, and running for the Olympics brings you allot of cash...(of course if you are the winner or a well known athlet)
"Abandon all hope, you who enter here" La Divina Commedia, Dante Alighieri
  • #23
  • Jul 2, 2007 7:18am Jul 2, 2007 7:18am
Quoting mbqb11
...It came down to simply WHO they knew. Nothing to do with what they knew. One of the kids was dumb as rocks...
How true!
I worked one year in bank as a systems analysts. All the dept. managers knew each other from other banks they worked at before and drove into the ground. The only reason they kept their jobs was they covered each others ass-ets. Most of these people couldn't even perform a simple query in a database. I spent years recovering from the physical stress and emotional damage of that job. Now I trade micro size lots and work part time in an easy job. I'm far from easy street but I don't have one foot in the grave any longer.
  • #24
  • Jul 3, 2007 5:18am Jul 3, 2007 5:18am
Quoting Micro-MiniMe
How true!
I worked one year in bank as a systems analysts. All the dept. managers knew each other from other banks they worked at before and drove into the ground. The only reason they kept their jobs was they covered each others ass-ets. Most of these people couldn't even perform a simple query in a database. I spent years recovering from the physical stress and emotional damage of that job. Now I trade micro size lots and work part time in an easy job. I'm far from easy street but I don't have one foot in the grave any longer.
Sounds like you are happier now.
You know what I wanna do ? Quit this programming job, open a food outlet and trade my account. Simpler life, no hassle.
  • #25
  • Jul 3, 2007 5:30am Jul 3, 2007 5:30am
Trade your own account, produce a very good, consistent return over six months.

Go over to a forum like T2W and start boasting about it.

I got several interviews with huge firms by doing this - the recruitment scouts will usually PM you.

Easy!
  • #26
  • Jul 3, 2007 6:04am Jul 3, 2007 6:04am
I was firstly a risk manager for a large bank then a position opened as a spot forex trader. Got an account for $2mil in the first three months got increased to $5mil for the next year and to $8mil in the next. When it was increased to $20mil I called it quits. The more you make the more they want you to make, and of course "force" you to make. Yes the pay is great but you die bit by bit.

Took a long "vacation" and am now back in Risk Management again...

Trading is not for everyone and it is not for me, not the way the banks make you trade. The pressure and rewards are immense but at some point the rewards are not enough anymore.

I am now happily married with a lovely wife we have a little girl and a life outside of trading.

Yes I still trade but for my own account and I find these forums unbelievable. Both for the funny indicators as well as for some really good advice that has proven true over ages.
  • #27
  • Jul 3, 2007 6:36am Jul 3, 2007 6:36am
Quoting Trader888

Yes I still trade but for my own account and I find these forums unbelievable. Both for the funny indicators as well as for some really good advice that has proven true over ages.
I for one would be very interested to hear some tips from your experience as to the good advice

I'm also of course curious "how" (system) you traded
Price or indicator based? You don't need to go into 50 paragraph detail, but I'm curious how you went

And congratulations on the wife and kid, makes you richer than the sums you got the bank
Trust price. Know yourself.
  • #28
  • Jul 3, 2007 6:40am Jul 3, 2007 6:40am
Quoting SeekingLight
I for one would be very interested to hear some tips from your experience as to the good advice

I'm also of course curious "how" (system) you traded

Took the words right out of my mouth...
  • #29
  • Jul 3, 2007 8:01am Jul 3, 2007 8:01am
I have seen traders make consistent returns just using RSI, I was a big believer in technicals so once asked a guy how he use it. The response was expected..."If I think the market is going up, I buy on RSI buy signals"...so gut feel played a major role.

This must probably be the best advice I have ever used...know your market know what makes it change know the ranges know the expected pip moves on a daily weekly monthly basis.

Most of my money was made on long term views...meaning - look at the economics and decide what interest rates are going to do in the next 6 months...trade in that direction and MAKE SURE you add to a winner on all retracements so that when you are right you have a max position on. Also decide when your view will change...what must change fundamentally for you to believe that your long term view is wrong? Usually this has nothing to do with the absolute level of the currency you are trading.

I traded long term views but every single day I took positions. Either adding to a winner or making a loser lighter.

Many losses but the winners eat them up when they happen...
  • #30
  • Jul 3, 2007 8:22am Jul 3, 2007 8:22am
Trader888, I think you hit the nail on the head when you talk about adding to positions.

So many of the traders on here are exiting part of positions at targets and then trailing stops for the remainder and do not realise that really they should wait for a consolidation-breakout or small retracement to actually ADD to the position.
  • #31
  • Jul 3, 2007 8:32am Jul 3, 2007 8:32am
Just to add to that - I am a highly educated person :-) (M.Sc) but have thus far found no value for all the years of study within trading...except position management...no value in terms of decision making as to whether to go long or short. I have tested and programmed all kinds of technicals and all kinds of combinations and nothing performs better than good old gut-feel....but remember gut-feel is a product of knowing your market it is not a coin toss as many believe.

I have also traded the very short term (tick by tick) by just watching the quotes coming through on three very large banks and occasionally hitting a bugger that is out of line by a pip or two. The spreads were very close and sometimes even zero spread, choice. I did not do this regularly but the misprice did happen at least twice a day and was tradeable for a pip or two.

Towards the end of my trading I got a trader from bonds/swaps to trade with me on the eurgbp and he really enjoyed these mispricings smiling from ear to ear when he made a pip on $1,000 a pip position. Imagine the smile on my face the day he refused to cut his position when the "misprice" was in fact the market pacer and the other 2 banks started to follow what he perceived to be the mispricing bank. It was horrible to watch almost 6 months of slowly accumulating profit disappear in a single day.

If you don't have the discipline to cut a position then dont take it in the first place.
  • #32
  • Jul 3, 2007 9:15am Jul 3, 2007 9:15am
Quoting Trader888
I was firstly a risk manager for a large bank then a position opened as a spot forex trader. Got an account for $2mil in the first three months got increased to $5mil for the next year and to $8mil in the next. When it was increased to $20mil I called it quits. The more you make the more they want you to make, and of course "force" you to make. Yes the pay is great but you die bit by bit.

Took a long "vacation" and am now back in Risk Management again...

Trading is not for everyone and it is not for me, not the way the banks make you trade. The pressure and rewards are immense but at some point the rewards are not enough anymore.

I am now happily married with a lovely wife we have a little girl and a life outside of trading.

Yes I still trade but for my own account and I find these forums unbelievable. Both for the funny indicators as well as for some really good advice that has proven true over ages.
I dont know man...I heard from my doctor that he has had clients who worked as traders that made 5 million a year at the age of 28. I dont know how they got the job, but my doctor said that most of them were total frat boys back in college...so I guess connections is a plus

I guess nerds always lose...you think ur gonna get rich and get the girls if u study the SAT like crazy while the frat boys bang the girls...and when u grow up after years of ,sat, gpa, mba , CFA, CA, CPA, slaving over for some stupid ass company that doesnt gave a damn about you...not only are u old but u still dont have as much money as one would like to have and not enough skills with the ladies...

as always I say...its those who have the favor of the gods
  • #33
  • Jul 3, 2007 10:23am Jul 3, 2007 10:23am
Quoting xxfunguyxx

I guess nerds always lose...you think ur gonna get rich and get the girls if u study the SAT like crazy while the frat boys bang the girls...and when u grow up after years of ,sat, gpa, mba , CFA, CA, CPA, slaving over for some stupid ass company that doesnt gave a damn about you...not only are u old but u still dont have as much money as one would like to have and not enough skills with the ladies...

as always I say...its those who have the favor of the gods
Poor nerds. But hey, Bill Gates is the richest nerd ever alive.

Trader888,
How's the remuneration is like for a forex trader there ? The bonus, salary package etc.
  • #34
  • Jul 3, 2007 6:40pm Jul 3, 2007 6:40pm
If your that good of a trader, then trade your own account and make more money.
  • #35
  • Jul 4, 2007 12:35am Jul 4, 2007 12:35am
Quoting luqmanz
Poor nerds. But hey, Bill Gates is the richest nerd ever alive.

Trader888,
How's the remuneration is like for a forex trader there ? The bonus, salary package etc.

My basic salary was very good and the bonus worked on a scale, I had to make the budget they set to get any bonus, which was about 5% of budget. But everything over the budget I shared in by about 25%. So budget is $1mil I get $50k bonus, I make $2mil I get $300k bonus. My biggest bonus ever was only $150k. It almost matched my basic salary, so I decided the negative on health is not worth it. Also if you did not make budget but came within like 80% of it then you just got a 13th cheque. If you made less than 80% of budget then you got another year to make budget else you get trouble. Now I earn almost the same basic as before but without the promise of a "big" bonus.

Trading is not like many newbies think...very passionate and exciting career etc...in the beginning yes it is, it makes your heart beat faster, slower even makes it stop and the adrenaline is major but as time walks on you dont care anymore. Trading just becomes a numbers game little numbers going up and down all day long, it will be there long after you have passed away. You become detached to any one trade all you think about is the end result - budget -and will I make budget this quarter, this year, that is the big goal? You don't care about losing money nor do you become ecstatic about a big winner - it is just the natural flow of ups and downs - you dont care anymore. Once you reach this stage you dont find any meaning in your trading anymore. What am I doing to really help the people around me? Who will remember me once I die? All those crappy human questions come up and you ask yourself if the money is more important than other more human things. Like enjoying the sunshine on your face or walking in nature. When trading you can become detached to all these things and may even lose the people you really love and who are the reason for you trading in the first place. In my career I have become personal friends (and still am friends) with about 11 traders and of those 11 only me and 2 others are still married to the same people. I have known many more on other desks but never really got to know them on a personal level. I really miss the camaraderie when trading and also the sense of belonging to an exclusive few. I miss the pride of stepping out of the lift onto the trading floor and knowing the people behind me in the lift are looking at me in admiration, and probably have a job because of my contribution to the bank.

Now I help people by being a risk manager thus minimising the probability that my bank might go belly-up due to risky trading behaviour. It makes me feel good but not as good and respected as when I was a trader. However, now in the evening when I get home I am home and I am not tuning to financial news nor am I opening my homeline to the brokers. I have a wife who loves me (I think :-) and I am so relaxed I cant believe I was once a trader.

I must also add that the money never really was a motivator as I inherited a lot even before I started studying. So it was more a challenge to see if I can do it or not. Maybe for someone for which money is the real motivator it will be easier to keep on trading. During my last year of trading I met a guy who has been trading for about 22 years and he obviously made a lot of money. I asked him why he continues on and on year after year and he said that trading drives him. He didn't get out while young to pursue other interests and today this is all he knows and he is OK at it. He enjoys it and lives the lifestyle of a very rich person with all the toys and holidays etc. but speaking to him you soon realise that his life is still unfulfilled. That conversation decided me, I changed gears a bit. I learned a lot from the old hands but also saw them make typical newbie mistakes (like holding on to a loser) for far too long. I learned that everybody makes mistakes and if you are not 100% disciplined and focused whenever you are trading then you are going to drop the ball, no matter how experienced you are. That is when I decided that I do not wish to live my life constantly thinking about the market, being on edge trying not to make mistakes. Yes, it does become easier over time but you let slip your attention just for one moment and you are in trouble.

I hope all you guys and girls enjoy your trading and dont allow it to rule your world. If I can give one word of advice to any new trader it would be this: TRADE THE LONG TERM FORGET ABOUT INTRADAY YOU WILL LOSE YOUR MONEY BEFORE YOU HAVE LEARNED WHAT TRADING IS ABOUT.
  • #36
  • Jul 4, 2007 12:39am Jul 4, 2007 12:39am
awesome post man.
  • #37
  • Jul 4, 2007 1:47am Jul 4, 2007 1:47am
Quoting Trader888
TRADE THE LONG TERM FORGET ABOUT INTRADAY YOU WILL LOSE YOUR MONEY BEFORE YOU HAVE LEARNED WHAT TRADING IS ABOUT.
First off, Trader888, that was the best post I've read on these forums. Please continue to share your experience & wisdom with us. Secondly, the above is indeed the best advice to new traders.
  • #38
  • Edited Jul 5, 2007 4:44pm Jul 4, 2007 2:56am | Edited Jul 5, 2007 4:44pm
Quoting Trader888
.
well said!! but what is long term to u? dayly,weekly or mthly?
  • #39
  • Jul 4, 2007 3:35am Jul 4, 2007 3:35am
Quoting Trader888
My basic salary was very good and the bonus worked on a scale, I had to make the budget they set to get any bonus, which was about 5% of budget. But everything over the budget I shared in by about 25%. So budget is $1mil I get $50k bonus, I make $2mil I get $300k bonus. My biggest bonus ever was only $150k. It almost matched my basic salary, so I decided the negative on health is not worth it. Also if you did not make budget but came within like 80% of it then you just got a 13th cheque. If you made less than 80% of budget then you got another year to make budget else you get trouble. Now I earn almost the same basic as before but without the promise of a "big" bonus.

I hope all you guys and girls enjoy your trading and dont allow it to rule your world. If I can give one word of advice to any new trader it would be this: TRADE THE LONG TERM FORGET ABOUT INTRADAY YOU WILL LOSE YOUR MONEY BEFORE YOU HAVE LEARNED WHAT TRADING IS ABOUT.
Awesome story Trader888. Thanks for sharing. That final advice is indeed true for newcomers.
Another question,
Which pairs did you trade at the bank?
  • #40
  • Jul 4, 2007 4:04am Jul 4, 2007 4:04am
Quoting Trader888
What am I doing to really help the people around me? Who will remember me once I die? All those crappy human questions come up and you ask yourself if the money is more important than other more human things. Like enjoying the sunshine on your face or walking in nature.

When trading you can become detached to all these things and may even lose the people you really love and who are the reason for you trading in the first place.

He enjoys it and lives the lifestyle of a very rich person with all the toys and holidays etc. but speaking to him you soon realise that his life is still unfulfilled.

I learned that everybody makes mistakes and if you are not 100% disciplined and focused whenever you are trading then you are going to drop the ball, no matter how experienced you are.

I hope all you guys and girls enjoy your trading and dont allow it to rule your world.

I think these insights are some of the most important ones someone can have (the timeframe advice is good and well, but the quoted above matters sooooo much more overall...remember that you WILL die.)


Thanks for sharing and I hope you really don't have to THINK your wife loves you, but know
After still being together after all this time it's probably a good bet, no?

Btw, don't know if those "human questions" really are so "crappy" ..

Take care
Trust price. Know yourself.
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