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  • #29,221
  • Feb 4, 2024 11:38am Feb 4, 2024 11:38am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} No sense at all to compare prop numbers with real trading account number. It's two completely different "business models".
yes, People choose trading accounts based on situation, their resident address etc.
Intraday only.
  • #29,222
  • Feb 4, 2024 11:38am Feb 4, 2024 11:38am
Is that the begin of the end of any existing prop firm, if that becomes widespreaded enough ?

https://propea.net/

Reverse trading across accounts with personal broker live account involved for reversing. Now easy to go setup all automated with the above EA.

The big problem for props is that if this offer gets too much attention with this reverse trading across accounts, with broker personal live account involved, then any prop firm could go bankrupt, as they rely on the mass of failed challenges to pay any payouts out of the captured challenge fees. So this formula is the formula to bankruptcy for any prop firm if it is well-known and widespread among most prop firm customers. I would fear hacker attacks too on the company customer database.

This firm also says:

"PropEA shouldn't expose you to the risk of being banned by Prop firms for the following reasons:

1. Each trade is based on your personal symbol selection
2. Even if all users select the same symbol, the trade timing is unique to every user, and the trade size varies.
3. The hedging takes place on a completely different platform that is only accessible to you.
4. The EA runs on the client terminal, not the server side, and only you can see what kind of EA you're using.
5. You can add a custom comment for your trades to camouflage them further.
6. You can change the magic number.
7. PropEA doesn't use gridding or martingale strategies.

All the above make it almost impossible to be detected.

Most importantly, the EA itself doesn't really have an impact on your winning probability, think of it a safety net or an insurance against failure."

"We're working on adding the Trailing Max DD type in the next versions, but meanwhile there is a workaround that requires some setting adjustments.

We also have other platforms in the future plans.

Here is the calculated live account size based on your previous example (this is not live yet, but the calculation is correct). You can see that the actual amount needed is 2.05x, but again 3x is recommended to account for margin requirements and variable charges. PropEA will only utilize the amount needed to pass or recover the cost."
  • #29,223
  • Feb 4, 2024 11:42am Feb 4, 2024 11:42am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-If we are just talking about certificates, then I would agree, of course. But since you mentioned the blockchain, I assume that you were making a reference to disproving their claims. If we look at it from a perspective of convincing traders with fake payouts, then the blockchain will only help with that, making things easier (by adding a layer of legitimacy). This was my meaning. The firm does not technically need to use a 3rd-party processor to do that, unless Rize or some other company has primary wallets that can be easily tracked, but...
I need to receive a payout through Rise to understand that and to see how that is shown up in blockchain.
If not for props (you may be right) at least for "influencers" seems to be more difficult to have real big payouts to show up, because that has to come up through rise their history will be public. Unless they are in collusion with prop.
  • #29,224
  • Feb 4, 2024 11:44am Feb 4, 2024 11:44am
Quoting TrAndy1
Is that the begin of the end of any existing prop firm, if that becomes widespreaded enough ? https://propea.net/ Reverse trading across accounts with personal broker live account involved for reversing. Now easy to go setup all automated with the above EA. The big problem for props is that if this offer gets too much attention with this reverse trading across accounts, with broker personal live account involved, then any prop firm could go bankrupt, as they rely on the mass of failed challenges to pay any payouts out of the captured...
You can end up with a double loss.
You lose in the real broker account and then not being paid in the prop firm (or not being granted a funded account).
  • #29,225
  • Feb 4, 2024 11:44am Feb 4, 2024 11:44am
All well advertized on Elitetrader Forum with big banners.

https://www.elitetrader.com/et/threa...lenges.378170/
  • #29,226
  • Feb 4, 2024 11:45am Feb 4, 2024 11:45am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} You can end up with a double loss. You lose in the real broker account and then not being paid in the prop firm (or not being granted a funded account).
Not on the most serious prop firms like FTMO and such similar. There you can have guaranteed payouts with just a matter of time or how fast.
If you do not get a funded account after passing challenges or no payout after some profits on funded you made, then this is a prop firm issue, and not an issue because of this EA. But of course the failing costs increases here. But if take the TOP 10 or TOP 20 prop firms with some diversification you cannot fail with this EA. That is why I said it could be the begin of the end of all props. If people do realize they can get payouts for sure, so paying less for fess than what they could get on payouts. So in the end the whole business model on failed challenges for any prop firm does not exist anymore with this reverse trading across accounts EA. You could also do it manually. But the point is, that it is all automated now and the big marketing of course, so people get attention how to reverse cheat any prop without being detected.
  • #29,227
  • Feb 4, 2024 11:55am Feb 4, 2024 11:55am
Quoting Capablanca
at least for "influencers" seems to be more difficult to have real big payouts to show up, because that has to come up through rise their history will be public. Unless they are in collusion with prop.
-Collusion with prop would be my guess. It happens with brokers, also, unfortunately.
  • #29,228
  • Feb 4, 2024 11:57am Feb 4, 2024 11:57am
You either pass the prop challenge or you make the challenge fees back as profit on your personal broker live account. So it is only a matter of time that you will get a funded account for sure. Just you pay double the challenge fee for this guarantee because you are reverse trading across accounts. Second, you can repeat this whole thing also on funded accounts. In the end you pay around 4 times the challenge fee for a guaranteed payout as high as 8 or 9 times the challenge fee, depending on prop firms conditions. So in the end you get a guaranteed return of over 100% on your initial investment AND that all automated with the EA so you do not need to do anything except the initial setup of course. It can take 6 weeks to get this payout, or also some months with bad luck. But this is like an advertized money printing machine or prop firm arbitrage model, where you just need little initial money to do this whole thing. If that gets too much attention on whole prop traders community....oh I cannot estimate what the consequences would be for all ?
  • #29,229
  • Feb 4, 2024 12:00pm Feb 4, 2024 12:00pm
Quoting TrAndy1
Is that the begin of the end of any existing prop firm, if that becomes widespreaded enough ? https://propea.net/ Reverse trading across accounts with personal broker live account involved for reversing. Now easy to go setup all automated with the above EA. The big problem for props is that if this offer gets too much attention with this reverse trading across accounts, with broker personal live account involved, then any prop firm could go bankrupt
-Perhaps we can entertain a different perspective on this. Such services might encourage props to rethink their models and improve on them. I still like the idea of subscription-based models with reasonable, monthly profit caps.

As mentioned, hedging across firms does not guarantee success, and having a stronger model would help to ensure long-term sustainability while also helping to remove any fears that traders might have about profiting 'too much'.

It would not serve as a cure-all, but more of a counterbalance with benefits. The rest could be solved with simple trading requirements. Some traders wouldn't like it, but most would not be affected.
  • #29,230
  • Feb 4, 2024 12:07pm Feb 4, 2024 12:07pm
The problem is that the formula to bankruptcy is built-in in every prop firm business model based on the actual trading conditions & parameters they are offering to us.

You need to be only little bit clever in enough to figure out that you can make guaranteed income with payouts if you reverse trading across broker live accounts, which the prop firms cannot detect. Recently they got a lot about reverse trading across multiple prop firms, so they all together exchanged the customers info. But with personal broker live accounts any reverse trading with prop accounts cannot be detected anymore. That is the perfect solution to cheat any prop firm. Thus any prop can go bankrupt easily if too many people are doing this kind of reverse trading. The prop firms they could cheat us based on the 90/90/90 rule but in fact it is the opposite if the traders are just bit clever enough in simple mats.

This recent public EA which is advertized is just the truth how it can be done easily for everyone now, fully automated. This could be the end of prop firm business model. Therefore it is more urgent than ever now that we need to milk the prop firms as much as possible in the next months until it gets much worse for us.
  • #29,231
  • Feb 4, 2024 12:18pm Feb 4, 2024 12:18pm
Quoting TrAndy1
The problem is that the formula to bankruptcy is built-in in every prop firm business model based on the actual trading conditions & parameters they are offering to us. You need to be only little bit clever in enough to figure out that you can make guaranteed income with payouts .../...This recent public EA .../... Therefore it is more urgent than ever now that we need to milk the prop firms as much as possible in the next months until it gets much worse for us.
-This is why I propose that the model be changed. It does not have to be the doom-and-gloom scenario that you describe. I am even going a step further and claiming that the automated hedging EA could actually serve a positive role in fostering that change.
  • #29,232
  • Feb 4, 2024 12:36pm Feb 4, 2024 12:36pm
Quoting TrAndy1
The problem is that the formula to bankruptcy is built-in in every prop firm business model based on the actual trading conditions & parameters they are offering to us. You need to be only little bit clever in enough to figure out that you can make guaranteed income with payouts if you reverse trading across broker live accounts, which the prop firms cannot detect. Recently they got a lot about reverse trading across multiple prop firms, so they all together exchanged the customers info. But with personal broker live accounts any reverse trading...
Hello TrAndy1;

I trust you're well & thank you for including the information.

With utmost care & respect, after having a brief look at the link you included & the value proposition outlined by the Company, I am of the view that they're over-shooting the runway with their claims.

Claims which are a one size fits all, almost entirely frictionless gains are commonplace click-bait type marketing which entices neophyte & intermediary Traders who are still in the "wilderness" seeking some sort of external Holy Grail which will effortlessly propel them into a positive equity curve.

Should we take the extremity of probability that the company has in fact discovered this "ground-breaking" solution, why, oh why, would they then need to sell it to any & everyone which will invariably result in undue attention to themselves? Surely, having accomplished all this phenomenal R&D & breakout results they're advertising they could "break the system" with their inner circle of colleagues trading as a group.

Frankly, I cannot fathom why anyone would aspire to cheat the system anyhow since the prop model is more than capable of paying profits as Trader Nsak3y pointed out if the Trader concerned managers their own expectations and generates a moderate amount of profit at periodic cycles as opposed to trying to game the system.

Further to this, new or inexperienced Traders being influenced into this modality of trading is not helping them at all. They should rather be encouraged (in my view) to put in their 10 000 hours, cut their teeth with learning how to execute trades accurately & then treat the prop account as their own liquidity and aspire for capital preservation with small, consistent profits with a compounding effect for a number of years.

In so doing, at the end of the process, they'll have a sizeable amount of hard-earned liquidity as opposed to the bang & burn model where they wish to pass extremely quickly. As Traders who have been in the Game longer we have a responsibility to not encourage or worse entice the newer Traders into unsustainable trading habits.

If they learn how to trade properly without a cheating mindset, they will reach a point where they'll generate income hand over fist & they would have acquired the skill & agility to function whether or not there are props, magical EAs or anything else since they would have unlocked the Holy Grail they so desperately seek.

As all older Traders know, the solution they seek is within them.

Should we not do our utmost to encourage they dig deep & draw out that Version of themselves as opposed to pointing them to the newest shiny object with endless bells & whistles?

I wish my feedback is received in the good faith intended since it is not levelled at you personally but merely speaking in broad strokes of what we can do to advance the retail trader segment as a collective.

Wishing you a pleasant day ahead & May The Markets Go With You.
My success is due to The Great Napoleon Hill. May His Name Live Forever
  • #29,233
  • Feb 4, 2024 12:52pm Feb 4, 2024 12:52pm
Quoting TrAndy1
This could be the end of prop firm business model. Therefore it is more urgent than ever now that we need to milk the prop firms as much as possible in the next months until it gets much worse for us.
Can't props forbid this EA ? That would kill this because most of the folks that would be using it don't have half brain to make themselves the same calculations done by the EA.
  • #29,234
  • Feb 4, 2024 1:02pm Feb 4, 2024 1:02pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Can't props forbid this EA ? That would kill this because most of the folks that would be using it don't have half brain to make themselves the same calculations done by the EA.
What good would that do as you can just use FXBlue copier and invert the trades between the accounts. In any case this EA will have no affect on the future of prop firms.
  • #29,235
  • Feb 4, 2024 1:03pm Feb 4, 2024 1:03pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Can't props forbid this EA ? That would kill this because most of the folks that would be using it don't have half brain to make themselves the same calculations done by the EA.
Its just a copier with a calculation. What it does is allow people to gamble to pass (no effort).

Btw i forgot to add an edit here - > Its for pathetic losers who cant trade .
  • #29,236
  • Feb 4, 2024 1:08pm Feb 4, 2024 1:08pm
In some countries this can have massive tax implications btw

Examples:
1. You lose the challenge fee and win on real account. You are break even but pay capital tax.
2. You win on prop but lose in real account. Real account losses can only be deductible in trading income. Prop profit may be professional income (like consultant) and in some countries is taxed very high.
  • #29,237
  • Feb 4, 2024 1:14pm Feb 4, 2024 1:14pm
In the long run you should think about other ways to maximize your trading.

For example copy trading where people can connect their trading acccounts and copy your trades into their Account, you receive a 30% performnace fee.
If you trade succesfully, you can have large ammounts of capital under management and play your own rules.

I personally think its much better then prop Firms
1k to 100k Copy Trading All Time Return: 367.9%
  • #29,238
  • Feb 4, 2024 1:30pm Feb 4, 2024 1:30pm
I think, if account hedging ever became a serious issue, then adding some requirements to the challenge phases could probably solve the problem. Something like, 60% or more profit cannot come from a single trading day etc..

Since most firms removed the time limit, then this should not affect swing traders too much, and it would force hedgers to have to take that gamble at least 4 times before getting funded on a 2-phase challenge, which should weed most of them out.

Some traders would not like it, but most traders would not be affected by it, probably.
  • #29,239
  • Feb 4, 2024 1:37pm Feb 4, 2024 1:37pm
I just find the irony in this.

"Prop firms are scam, but I am going to scam prop firms and milk it while it lasts".
  • #29,240
  • Feb 4, 2024 1:38pm Feb 4, 2024 1:38pm
Quoting Stoneyrocks
{quote} FCFF ?
First Class Forex Funds
Drawdown is more important than Account Size !
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