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Self funded vs prop firm… truth behind it

  • #101
  • Jan 3, 2024 10:20pm Jan 3, 2024 10:20pm
Quoting aa4fx
{quote} Thanks! Best wishes to you too! Yes, from my perspective, you are reading it correctly. I think this post (see the quote post first) will make things more clear: https://www.forexfactory.com/thread/...6#post14703906 Enjoy!
Just a friendly thought for you:

If you are relying on that technique and think you are somehow gaining a mindset advantage, ask yourself how mentally strong you really are?

I do not think this will help your mental game at all.

You are tracking your account growth, lets also see some tracking of your mental strength.

Suggestion would be as you post your table...provide a quick note on the trades for that day and what you went through mentally during those trades.

What you are describing is:

Real account - Mentality goes to shit.
Demo Account / Copy to Real account - No Worries, Mentality not affected.

Fix mentality going to shit first.

I think you are two days in, if that Real account means anything, I think you will find out really quick that your mentality will still come into play.
Swing the AXE..HARD w/ Effort, Consistency and Patience
  • #102
  • Jan 3, 2024 10:47pm Jan 3, 2024 10:47pm
[quote=_BBKing_;14706071]I had not really good day. Bad decision to attempt long on cable ended in loss. luckily got nice short in oil but it will be tradable in the live account if and once reaches at least 1k overall live account ended -50$ I anyway have to use a main,platform as tech study and all the others using tablet / phone to execute orders. not really simple. I will get used to that.[/qu

ote]
Today the trend was down on the cable. Did you check before trading? Always know the trend direction to know which way to target your trades. Teach yourself how to find the trend direction. This really helps funded trading!!!
  • #103
  • Jan 3, 2024 10:54pm Jan 3, 2024 10:54pm
well, in this small range in GU, I did my daily target.

Whatever I do henceforth today is bonus.
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Intraday only.
  • #104
  • Jan 3, 2024 11:00pm Jan 3, 2024 11:00pm
Quoting aa4fx
{quote} There is one optimization you could consider when the real account equity bypass the demo account + the startup fee and this is to use a real account of 5k instead of demo account and the remaining in the startup fee account. You will have all the real account benefits vs demo account. You will be able to reset easier and make a better % in the fee account as it will involve a simple money transfer between the accounts. The more often you reset, the much efficient return % you will have. day x - make 1k in the 5k account => in 10 'session'...
First , I am considering remving extra profits made.

I will do this by end of january.

As per my calculation, I will allow the capital grow.

Once the real account capital touches 5k, I am planning to transfer to new account.

Anyways, as you say, that is too early.

Let january to finish.
Intraday only.
  • #105
  • Jan 3, 2024 11:13pm Jan 3, 2024 11:13pm
Quoting HTG
{quote} Just a friendly thought for you: If you are relying on that technique and think you are somehow gaining a mindset advantage, ask yourself how mentally strong you really are? I do not think this will help your mental game at all. You are tracking your account growth, lets also see some tracking of your mental strength. Suggestion would be as you post your table...provide a quick note on the trades for that day and what you went through mentally during those trades. What you are describing is: Real account - Mentality goes to shit. Demo Account...
Thank you for your thoughts!
I think you did not understood it fully. It is not only mentality, mentality is just a peace of the puzzle.

It all started from the fact that I said that instead of paying the fee to a prop firm and try to get funded, the trader better trade the fee in a smart way and it will end up with more money by the time he could reach the funded status, and also in the future to come. And much more advantages.
That is to say, instead of paying 1080e for 160k funded account better use the money in the trader real account.
The, things evolved and in order to make the things similar as those prop firms, I said to use a demo account that will have the balance as the daily limit of the funded account (5% = 8k) and trade in it, ... have the rest of the balance daily, ... more or less as the offer the firm offers. The rest of info are spread around a few posts ...

Coming to the mentality, it is not related to having a day good or bad - trade wise, but the way the trader trades. One way is to have 1080e acc and try to increase exponentially, ... hard to know each time entry size, exposure, ... also, it may be depressing to see that day 1 only 20e was made ... etc.
That's why, always, ever day the same, trading in an account of the same parameters, will help pass all those mental issues. Of course if decisions are bad, it can be in any account, in any environments ...

That is interesting: "Suggestion would be as you post your table...provide a quick note on the trades for that day and what you went through mentally during those trades." and indeed it is always interesting to have it, written or thought about it. A recap session, like a scrum meeting with yourself, ... I do that, with me.

For me trading and what is surrounding it, it is too time consuming, no matter how rewarding it could be. In this view (medium, long, ...), I will not be a trader, it is just a deviation form my other plans, involvement in the trading domain.
Hopefully, it is going to end pretty soon, therefore, an evolution from my trading performance may not be present. It could be from others, I see Navk is doing it very well.
  • #106
  • Jan 4, 2024 12:07am Jan 4, 2024 12:07am
Quoting HTG
{quote} I've seen a few posts between you and navk, wishing you both happiness, health and prosperity. Can you articulate exactly what you all are trying to do? From what I gather, which I could be wrong, you're essentially trading two accounts, one demo account, one real money account, using a trade copier to copy the trades from demo to real? Does that about sum it up? By doing this you think your mindset will remain the same? You think this will help make you more profitable? Is that what I am reading or am I completely mis- understanding?
quoting your post since I find it very interesting,
I was thinking about this point in last few hours, since I’m also trading both a prop account (well, not yet, just in the challenge at this stage) and a small live account where basically copy the same trades.
now the point is that the small account is overleveraged. It makes no sense, it really could end up affecting my behavior.
everytime to open a position I feel stressed. Much more than what I would.
and this, personally, is exactly what I’m trying to eliminate.

i mean, as posted earlier, having a 1$ x pip on such a small account, means 3 wrong trades I’m out.
does it make any sense?

to me not much.
will probably withdraw that money and spend them dinner out.
90% of traders use TA, indicators and prediction
  • #107
  • Jan 4, 2024 12:17am Jan 4, 2024 12:17am
Quoting Cranium
Quoting _BBKing_
I had not really good day. Bad decision to attempt long on cable ended in loss. luckily got nice short in oil but it will be tradable in the live account if and once reaches at least 1k overall live account ended -50$ I anyway have to use a main,platform as tech study and all the others using tablet / phone to execute orders. not really simple. I will get used to that.[/qu ote] Today the trend was down on the cable. Did you check before trading? Always know the trend direction to know which way to target your trades. Teach
...
yes indeed I did it wrong.
If I was able to be everytime right, I would be trillionaire
90% of traders use TA, indicators and prediction
  • #108
  • Jan 4, 2024 12:24pm Jan 4, 2024 12:24pm
Quoting aa4fx
{quote} Nice to see someone that understand business. That simple double the fee example is an efficiently poor example where still works but it can be way way more efficient than that. Of course, a trader see 400$ vs 5k and is easy jump if not looking into details (those 5k are daily). I can fully admin that is hard to trade from the start those 400$ vs 5k ... in an account, because maybe in the 5k account you take trades of 0.5 / 1lot ... but in the 400$ account you take, what? 0.06 lot? or should it be 0.08 lot? ... when balance is 700$ you take...
My favorite thing, people are trading for free while trying to pass a challenge. Failure rate so high as well. They're trapped in a viscous cycle of trading for free while giving someone else your money

Dont pay attention to balance for self funded, focus on doing your system and following correctly. Take that info weekly to look over how you enter and exit and why. There needs to be weekly homework over trading good and bad and keeping track of it all.
From there you need to make sure you have a good system you can follow. From there use a position size calculator. Focus on what you want to risk and forget the lot size. I use Position sizer, use to have easy order as well which was really good.
But it takes that part out, just enter your risk. Move your sl and tp where needed and go from there.
"Anger clouds the mind. Turned inward, it is an unconquerable enemy."
  • #109
  • Jan 4, 2024 12:27pm Jan 4, 2024 12:27pm
Quoting aa4fx
{quote} I can fully agree that a big dd is not good, but if it is part of the trader style, that at one certain moment for any reason he can take more risks and allow it - with all the risks that implies it, ... then, a prop daily dd that is fixed is painful and easy to violate. That advice that all talk about ...1% on a trade, do you really think that is respected? Random case: Buy 10lot?or 8lot? or 6.5lot? eurusd in an 100K account or 65234$ account? at quote 1.086 -> where is your stop loss when you open that trade? ... when it reaches a 1k loss?...
Sometimes just closing the toolbox for a few weeks and just focus on the trading is best. Its easy to get trapped into forcing trades when in DD. but it your focus on just trading and executing your system then the rest will take care of itself. Profits are the deveil, money is what the ego wants. We cannot grow and move past that level of mentality without letting go of the parts that actually are holding you back
"Anger clouds the mind. Turned inward, it is an unconquerable enemy."
  • #110
  • Jan 4, 2024 12:30pm Jan 4, 2024 12:30pm
Quoting navk
{quote} Assume this scenario : 1 ) I bought ( or ) have a funded account 100k. 2 ) My daily dd limit is 5 % or 5000 dollars. 3 ) I trade only.. ( only ) 1 standard lot in a day gbpusd or eurusd and wait for 20 pips profit or 200 $ profit. 4 ) Assume that I am using day trading strategy. 5 ) I will never, ever blow my account, because 1 standard lot can never breach daily dd ( 5000 $ ) The trade which I opened can never, ever go against me 500 pips !! 6 ) I make 200 $ in a day, which is 4000 $ in a month or 48000 $ in a year. Now, please write here...
Easy.
I started another account beginning December for fun. Its already at $300 from about 7 trading days.
Today was 60$, it takes a few months of growth.... but hey thats what you do when doing ohase 1 and 2. Except you end up with all the money, not just another free start up.
You can blow an account with 1 lot lol
People have the wrong headspace thinking prop firm is the way or its better. Never will it be a better or good situation. Easy to fall into its traps. Its a mental game and great trickery is done.
"Anger clouds the mind. Turned inward, it is an unconquerable enemy."
  • #111
  • Jan 5, 2024 8:26am Jan 5, 2024 8:26am
Funded accounts just allow a bit more leverage. If you don't have a winning edge in trading, you gonna fail anyway.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
  • #112
  • Edited 10:20am Jan 5, 2024 10:05am | Edited 10:20am
Update on my real money account.

I did a stupid... ( very very stupid ) thing on Thursday so took loss.

However, I am catching up with the targets.

Tips to achieve daily target.

Trade from Tokyo open until London open if GBPUSD.

Do not trade high volatile pairs.

Do not go against running train as it happened today after NFP.

Remember the daily open line.

Below is bearish. Above is bullish.
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Intraday only.
  • #113
  • Edited 11:38am Jan 5, 2024 10:06am | Edited 11:38am
Quoting heispark
Funded accounts just allow a bit more leverage. If you don't have a winning edge in trading, you gonna fail anyway.
Not correct.

Whether it is funded account or real money account, same approach for me.

Having said, I agree one must have winning edge...

In funded account, daily DD is 5 % and overall DD is 10 %. This is catch..becos there is daily DD.

In real money account, one can allow 10 % overall.
Intraday only.
  • #114
  • Jan 5, 2024 1:05pm Jan 5, 2024 1:05pm
Quoting navk
This is catch..becos there is daily DD.

Quite a few prop firms have abolished the dailly loss limit, recently.
  • #115
  • Jan 5, 2024 1:40pm Jan 5, 2024 1:40pm
Quoting KarlKraus
{quote} Quite a few prop firms have abolished the dailly loss limit, recently.
example please. can check them out
Personal Journal...https://www.forexfactory.com/thread/1260265-the-journal
  • #116
  • Jan 5, 2024 1:46pm Jan 5, 2024 1:46pm
Quoting Iansco
{quote} example please.

Tradeday abolished their DLL a few months ago.

Topstep recently abolished it as a “pass/fail” rule and made it just an “overnight pause”.

There are others, too. Sorry, can’t remember which, now, will post again if I do!
  • #117
  • Jan 5, 2024 6:31pm Jan 5, 2024 6:31pm
Quoting heispark
Funded accounts just allow a bit more leverage. If you don't have a winning edge in trading, you gonna fail anyway.
Then why does leverage matter.
Only need 1:50 leverage and can still make huge gains
"Anger clouds the mind. Turned inward, it is an unconquerable enemy."
  • #118
  • Jan 6, 2024 12:58am Jan 6, 2024 12:58am
Quoting KarlKraus
{quote} Tradeday abolished their DLL a few months ago. Topstep recently abolished it as a “pass/fail” rule and made it just an “overnight pause”. There are others, too. Sorry, can’t remember which, now, will post again if I do!
topstep is an interesting prop. I was almost about to join the combine but decided to start with FTMO
anyway, the dd rule once funded, exists and you have to pay a fee to reset the account.
so, ok, it’s good but it’s not that you can simply exceed with over leverage and large DD.

Looks interesting the trading view chart thing on the platform, and also size allowed are good.
quite expensive as commissions but that’s in line with many others.
90% of traders use TA, indicators and prediction
  • #119
  • Edited 2:53am Jan 6, 2024 2:41am | Edited 2:53am
Quoting navk
{quote} Not correct. Whether it is funded account or real money account, same approach for me. Having said, I agree one must have winning edge... In funded account, daily DD is 5 % and overall DD is 10 %. This is catch..becos there is daily DD. In real money account, one can allow 10 % overall.
For example, I subscribed to $150K funded account of Topstep challenge last month (and failed the challenge). The term '$150K funded account' is somewhat misleading. It doesn't mean they put $150K into your account. Instead, it means they provide $150K worth of buying power to use for margin. However, because their initial max loss limit is only $4K and max daily loss limit is $3K, you cannot use full leverage unless your DD is very small and your win rate is very high. That's a catch. Even after you pass the test, they only risk initial $4k for your account and you trade with the money you earned during the trade. This money is much smaller than $150K, probably only thousands of $. If you have a winning edge and $4K extra money to burn, why do you need their funding with all sort of arbitrary rules?
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
  • #120
  • Jan 6, 2024 3:18am Jan 6, 2024 3:18am
Quoting heispark
{quote} For example, I subscribed to $150K funded account of Topstep challenge last month (and failed the challenge). The term '$150K funded account' is somewhat misleading. It doesn't mean they put $150K into your account. Instead, it means they provide $150K worth of buying power to use for margin. However, because their initial max loss limit is only $4K and max daily loss limit is $3K, you cannot use full leverage unless your DD is very small and your win rate is very high. That's a catch. Even after you pass the test, they only risk initial...
Yes, there is no 25k, 50k or 150k, your max (trailing) DD is the real number.

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