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  • #25,961
  • Nov 10, 2023 10:55am Nov 10, 2023 10:55am
Quoting ForexGalVA
{quote} I must be feeling cranky today. My apologies. I should ignore this but.... With FTMO I need to make 10% then 5%. On a 50k challenge that's $5k + $2500. With Apex I need to make $3k and $2600. The daily DD is the same. With FTMO, I'll start with an 80% payout. With Apex, tho I'll be limited to $2k withdrawals for 3 months, the first $25k I earn is all mine. Well, and some for the government next April. One small consideration is cost. FTMO is multiples of Apex or TopStep but IS refundable when you pass. Yay! What if I screw up? I'm out $374....
No your math is wrong. Jesus, sometimes I feel like in the kindergarden here. You need to do more calculating stuff really. Sorry for these words...but this is too stupid.
  • #25,962
  • Nov 10, 2023 11:06am Nov 10, 2023 11:06am
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote}...this is too stupid.
Thank you. I was explaining my perspective. May you be well.
  • #25,963
  • Nov 10, 2023 11:22am Nov 10, 2023 11:22am
Quoting TrAndy1
Just to make it round for all Apex traders or wannabees. Even the 50k does not make much sense on trailing regarding trading on an own personal account at a futures broker. Because doing 3k on a 2.5k DD even on a small 50k account means more than 3.3 times value already. Then you need again to do this with more consistency on the PA account. So even with 90% discount and lifetime fee you pay something like $160. Then you need to multiply this by 10 and put this in...
I don't know why you are multiplying by 10.

If you pay $17 (90% discount) for 50K and add the lifetime fee of $140, that's $157 and you get a $2500 trailing stop.
Let's say you can't benefit from the whole 2500 trailing but only $1000 (bad scenario). That's still 6.4 ratio. You need to fail 7 times not to be breakeven.
And I'm being pessimistic.
  • #25,964
  • Edited 11:34am Nov 10, 2023 11:24am | Edited 11:34am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} I don't know why you are multiplying by 10. If you pay $17 (90% discount) for 50K and add the lifetime fee of $140, that's $157 and you get a $2500 trailing stop. Let's say you can't benefit from the whole 2500 trailing but only $1000 (bad scenario). That's still 6.4 ratio. You need to fail 7 times not to be breakeven. And I'm being pessimistic.
Because you need to little bit more than flipping on Euler twice. So you need to multiply by ca. 3.3 squared. So this is then 10 times as value for your spent fee.
You need to WIKI read Euler. When you do 70% with reinvesting profits you already doubled your account. So when you need to flip once it means like doing 100% or in terms of profit goal = max. DD, which is then 2.72^1=2.72 or like 172% equivalent. So if you need to flip two times you need to calculates 2.72^2. I just make all the numbers comparable to trading on your own personal account. It does not matter how you are doing it, but you need to calculate it that way that the difficulty is exactly measured on the math behind. The real way to do this with Euler figure, as profits are reinvested. This is exactly what you get as difficulty when you do this. So for doing 3k profit on a 50k Apex on a 2.5k DD you need already to calculate your fee with 2.72^1.2, which is ca. 3.33, then you need to flip again on PA account status, which is 2.6k goal to 2.5 DD, so basically like ca. 3, so then you need to multiply 3.33 with 3 = 10 because you need to trade both in combination one after each other. This is pure math. And has nothing to do with your trading personality and so on. The trailing DD and consistency rules are NOT considered here, which only would lower the score in relation to FX props. So basically you need to multiply all your spent fees times 10 and then set this in relation to max. DD. And the 50k at Apex with 90% discount is already the best offer you can get on ANY Future props. On the 25k at Apex you pay already like $150 with discount and lifetime fee, times 10 = $1500 which is the trailing max. DD you get at the PA account. So score =1 which means there is 100% no value at this offer regarding trading the fees you spent here on a personal trading account. Wake up please.
  • #25,965
  • Nov 10, 2023 11:29am Nov 10, 2023 11:29am
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} Because you need to little bit more than flipping on Euler twice. So you need to multiply by ca. 3.3 squared. So this is then 10 times as value for your spent fee.
You need to flip on a 1.2 ratio (3K target vs 2.5 trailing). I only consider 50/50 but that won't change much the calculation. I kept it simple for the sake of the argument. Trailing stops sucks but at 90% discount is an excelent price.

And, yes, I'm assuming that I only need one month, so no need to pay additional monthly fees.
And, yes, I don't want to build a long term relations. I'm going after them for the quick bucks for my personal account.
  • #25,966
  • Nov 10, 2023 11:38am Nov 10, 2023 11:38am
The basic concept of reinvesting is based on Euler which gives the exact math figure to calculate with and make all the offers comparable.
Say you do 10% gain just as an example 7 times. So 1.1 * 1.1 *1.1 *1.1 *1.1 *1.1 *1.1 = 2, so you have done 70% in absolute terms which means relative you already doubled your account. So when a prop is saying you need to flip once, which means goal = Drawdown, it means as difficult like doing 100% in absolute terms, so now multiply 1.1 * 1.1 *... 10 times and you get at the end 2.72 (if the steps are small enough) which is the Euler figure. 2.72 means here 172% relative gains.
  • #25,967
  • Nov 10, 2023 11:40am Nov 10, 2023 11:40am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} You need to flip on a 1.2 ratio (3K target vs 2.5 trailing). I only consider 50/50 but that won't change much the calculation. I kept it simple for the sake of the argument. Trailing stops sucks but at 90% discount is an excelent price. And, yes, I'm assuming that I only need one month, so no need to pay additional monthly fees. And, yes, I don't want to build a long term relations. I'm going after them for the quick bucks for my personal account.
It does not matter. You need to calculate 2.72^(1.2 which is the target to DD ratio) = 3.33. If you do not believe it put these numbers in your pocket calculator. Then again you need to flip once at PA account before you can get any payout. So again like ~3 as factor. I hope you get it now.
  • #25,968
  • Nov 10, 2023 11:44am Nov 10, 2023 11:44am
The problem with all these Future prop offers. There is no way to calculate everything correctly on their first page. Nothing is said here in total. You need to go through their entire website to read all the fineprints, so you have then a chance to do the math correctly. That is the problem. On FX props there is no such thing. The only thing that could be are hidden rules or other rules, where you need to read the Terms and Conditions to get a full view. But for the calculation you can do this on the first glance on the homepage of every FX prop firm. Then again you can compare already something and then you need to read the Terms. But on the Future props, this is all messy. You need to read many pages before you can do anything. Do not be fooled by them. The 25k offer at Apex even with 90% discount is already robbery! The 50k offer gives you around a 1.5 score but with trailing and consistency rules, you do not have on FX props. No way this is any good in comparison to FTMO.
  • #25,969
  • Nov 10, 2023 11:49am Nov 10, 2023 11:49am
I hope that every reader in this forum can value my posts. I really do not need to do this. I could my math on my own, not telling others my insights. And I am not a teacher nor do I feel to explain this to everybody in detail. Please make the calculation on your own if you have some doubts. I do not like it to say everything 100 times. If others already got it, please defend it. I am not willing to post 100 defending posts on this matter. Future props offers are not good. That is all you need to know. => FTMO is way better. Only consider FX props if you are considering any prop firms.
  • #25,970
  • Nov 10, 2023 11:50am Nov 10, 2023 11:50am
Quoting TrAndy1
The problem with all these Future prop offers.
The problem is that you're unable to succeed with any of them.
Trade with confidence, trade without fear.
  • #25,971
  • Nov 10, 2023 11:57am Nov 10, 2023 11:57am
The score for the 150k and 300k offer at Apex even with 90% discount is also below 1. So no value to do this. You get less than the fee spent here in terms of value.
  • #25,972
  • Nov 10, 2023 11:59am Nov 10, 2023 11:59am
This means for a score of <1 that when you get a payout from Apex you had it more difficult to do this same payout on your personal account with total spent fees as your starting deposit! That is pure math. It is exact with Euler figure. It looks a bit more complicated but that is the math you need to compare the offers exactly.
  • #25,973
  • Nov 10, 2023 12:05pm Nov 10, 2023 12:05pm
@Capablanca and @Pipmaster77 did you get it what I tried to say with the math behind the Apex offers ?
  • #25,974
  • Edited 12:28pm Nov 10, 2023 12:17pm | Edited 12:28pm
On the FTMO offer you need to +15% to 10% max. DD in 2 phases combined which is 2.72^1.5=4 so like spending $4.5k in value for your fee, but you get $16k as max. drawdown for the 200k offer. BUT you do not need to do anything on your funded account. If you are little bit in plus you get your refund already. So there is no minimum profit goal to meet. If you needed to do 10% first as goal at FTMO on funded account then it would be same. That explains the main difference to Apex easily.
  • #25,975
  • Nov 10, 2023 12:44pm Nov 10, 2023 12:44pm
Well from all this spamming of you 2 I gathered that TrAndy should stick to forex props as he from what I understand is a swing trader and he should ignore futures prop talk, and the people who know what they are doing with futures should help each other out as some here have better understanding of the subject, we can see that math doesn't always apply to everything (cryptosurfs apex statements show that). All in all let's bury the hatchet and not throw shit at each other like apes lol. I think both of you are good contributors to the thread so chillax.
  • #25,976
  • Nov 10, 2023 12:57pm Nov 10, 2023 12:57pm
The math does apply to all FX & Fut props offering those evaluations. This is not limited to FX props only. Second my style has nothing to do that FX prop offers are way better than Future prop offers. On Future prop offers there is almost zero value in comparison to trading own personal broker account. I hope more people will get it.
  • #25,977
  • Nov 10, 2023 2:19pm Nov 10, 2023 2:19pm
Quoting TrAndy1
The math does apply to all FX & Fut props offering those evaluations. This is not limited to FX props only. Second my style has nothing to do that FX prop offers are way better than Future prop offers. On Future prop offers there is almost zero value in comparison to trading own personal broker account. I hope more people will get it.
thats by structure!

futures are not so easy to manipulate, because structured product price of a market place.
In FX its all with CFD and OTC (or this trading game style). so price can be more manipulated for the props, what they cant in futures so easy... so they can offer something better in FX and get money back by manipulate price more easy.

FX with CFD and a good broker has this problem not, but prop dont use good broker of course to have this problem for the client (they dont want them win).

there are so many people who do not understand futures and CFD correct. i even see so many idiots doing daytrading futures in currencies, when you really get by this fact screamed in your face "this trader is an beginner idiot"... nobody would think this can exist in the world of many free information in internet, but it exists so often. people simple dont know whats real advantage and disadvantage of trading products and that there is an easy decision always what is better and what is less good for any trading object and timeframe combination. many dont even choose good brokers, so they dont care about right product of course.
  • #25,978
  • Nov 10, 2023 4:06pm Nov 10, 2023 4:06pm
Anyone noticed how strong were the stops taken as Sp500 future price went above 4399?
Over +320 pts in a couple of weeks since october lows.

Hard day for me! I didn't expect a so strong breakout.

Hope you did profit! Or if it was so hard even for you, just drop a line.
in holiday till end of November
  • #25,979
  • Nov 10, 2023 4:17pm Nov 10, 2023 4:17pm
Quoting TrAndy1
The basic concept of reinvesting is based on Euler which gives the exact math figure to calculate with and make all the offers comparable. Say you do 10% gain just as an example 7 times. So 1.1 * 1.1 *1.1 *1.1 *1.1 *1.1 *1.1 = 2, so you have done 70% in absolute terms which means relative you already doubled your account. So when a prop is saying you need to flip once, which means goal = Drawdown, it means as difficult like doing 100% in absolute terms, so now multiply 1.1 * 1.1 *... 10 times and you get at the end 2.72 (if the steps are small enough)...
It would be more elegant if you used e or exp than 2.72 (Euler's constant) More generally, in your example (to do real math), 10% is expressed as 0.1 or even 1/10. By generalization, we obtain something of the form 1/n . By definition, e = (1 + 1/n)^n with n tending to infinity, which gives 2.718..... To find the number of occurrences to double your capital as a function of n, you must solve the equation: (1 + 1/n)^x = 2 We obtain x = ln(2)/ln(1+1/n) In your example n = 10, so x = ln(2)/ln(1.1) = 7.27
  • #25,980
  • Nov 10, 2023 4:23pm Nov 10, 2023 4:23pm
Quoting forexbali
Anyone noticed how strong were the stops taken as Sp500 future price went above 4399? Over +320 pts in a couple of weeks since october lows. Hard day for me! I didn't expect a so strong breakout. Hope you did profit! Or if it was so hard even for you, just drop a line.
After yesterday sell off there was bound to be a retrace. Yes it surprised a lot of people, the strength of it.

But as the saying goes, don’t stand in front of a moving train.
Trade with confidence, trade without fear.
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