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  • #25,201
  • Oct 31, 2023 11:53pm Oct 31, 2023 11:53pm
Quoting TradeHGG11
{quote} Cannot find any reviews or even a discord for these guys. Seems a little sus. Website is nice though and good metrics.
Purple trading normally offers cTrader and I just saw they only offer MT4 and MT5 with fintokei.com. Thats odd. I mean they would have had an edge compared to the other scum prop firms. But yet... They choose not too. MT4 and MT5 plugins superior to cTrader when it comes to "emulate" the market I guess.
  • #25,202
  • Nov 1, 2023 2:08am Nov 1, 2023 2:08am
Just did some tests here with 2019 market and NQ manual trading very slow volatility back then apparently compared to these days. Still being a newbie right compared prop firms to if using actual own funds.

If just starting with funds with only $1000 with and 24h wake time with non stop trading and using longer time frame and few entries each day for a month. With martingale sometimes too. The profit would been twice as much if not using a "forex" prop firm just with $1000 investment and not hitting the DD of -$1000. Compared to a prop firm having a DD of -$500 limit with 10k account obviously.
Equivalent with a 25k "actual size: $1250" forex prop firm account would been the same account size as own funded account with less freedom and more risks at $250 one time fee.
Also not having to worry about payment issues really also as investment factor if using own funded account.

Futures prop firms like apex offers $150 monthly for a $1500 account "trailing threshold" more or less. Which got decent payout reliability even if of course less reliable than brokers. But thats quite some deal the futures prop firms are offering for sure. I have no idea why people even bother with forex prop firms nowadays, no offense.
The only risk I see it compared to use own funds with just $1000 is that even apex could disappear or become troublesome. But that $150 monthly. +about $130 in fees. Would be almost the same as $1000 with own funds.

Question is. Is the it worth risking €250 "FTMO" the one time fee in an industry which just shutdown its biggest player MFF. Also where the prop firm is allowed to shut you down any time if they dont like your trading style even if FTMO isnt known for it publicly but some rumors floating around that they do behind scenes.

The risk investment these days: From what I notice is that only future prop firms are worth it and trading own funds as a newbie.
  • #25,203
  • Edited 2:41am Nov 1, 2023 2:29am | Edited 2:41am
It seems to me that futures prop firms are giving a false sensation of security.

We should not be tricked by the CME "data feed fee" (or by "contract execution fees" similar to real world), thinking that we're trading the real thing.

This is a videogame just like the forex one (no problem with that, provided we understand it). They may be a bit more protected from the gamblers/yolo'ers that populate the forex ecosystem, but it's a videogame anyway.

Don't take my word for it. If you have a real broker like interactive brokers, with real or historical cme data feed (or some data provider like IQFeed or CQG) you can check, at tick level, if your trades are anywhere. They won't be.
  • #25,204
  • Nov 1, 2023 2:30am Nov 1, 2023 2:30am
Quoting labu
Just . I have no idea why people even bother with forex prop firms nowadays, no offense. The risk investment these days: From what I notice is that only future prop firms are worth it and trading own funds as a newbie.
From what i briefly read its seems Apex for example is simulated funds and unregulated. I don't see them as much of a safer bet tbh. Not saying they are not worth a try and its not that I have a problem with simulated unregulated props, been paid by many of them.

If you have enough money to make any worthwhile money from personal account then good for you, go that route.
  • #25,205
  • Nov 1, 2023 2:43am Nov 1, 2023 2:43am
Documents from the MFF case (some are not free but most of them are downloadable). Credits to NOK in twitter.
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket...bal-group-inc/
  • #25,206
  • Nov 1, 2023 3:24am Nov 1, 2023 3:24am
Quoting CableJ
{quote} Rithmic.... $17 initial (90% off), $34 monthly auto renew (80% off), $85 monthly or $140 1x activation fee Tradovate... $19 initial (90% off), $38 monthly auto renew (80% off), $105 monthly or $160 1x activation fee
thank you perfect, now I understand how it works!

Quoting labu
Just did some tests here with 2019 market and NQ manual trading very slow volatility back then apparently compared to these days. Still being a newbie right compared prop firms to if using actual own funds. If just starting with funds with only $1000 with and 24h wake time with non stop trading and using longer time frame and few entries each day for a month. With martingale sometimes too. The profit would been twice as much if not using a "forex" prop firm just with $1000 investment and not hitting the DD of -$1000. Compared to a prop firm having...
Do we have a list of prop firm for futures than are regulate and with an easy access to challenges?
in holiday till end of November
  • #25,207
  • Nov 1, 2023 3:45am Nov 1, 2023 3:45am
Correct me if I am wrong, but the reason why props strictly forbid trade copying (from other traders), is they want to make sure you remain within the 95% losing retailer group right?
  • #25,208
  • Nov 1, 2023 3:50am Nov 1, 2023 3:50am
Quoting cuchuflito
Correct me if I am wrong, but the reason why props strictly forbid trade copying (from other traders), is they want to make sure you remain within the 95% losing retailer group right?
no its because there are liquidity repercussions for fills.
  • #25,209
  • Nov 1, 2023 4:00am Nov 1, 2023 4:00am
Quoting labu
Question is. Is the it worth risking €250 "FTMO" the one time fee in an industry which just shutdown its biggest player MFF.
-Depends on each person and their circumstances. In some cases, such a loss could be treated as a tax write-off. Charge-backs may also be possible, depending.
  • #25,210
  • Nov 1, 2023 4:01am Nov 1, 2023 4:01am
Quoting Takisd
no its because there are liquidity repercussions for fills.
-Realistically, though, it is because they need most traders to lose. When the so-called liquidity and fills are all simulated, then it becomes difficult to dispute.
  • #25,211
  • Nov 1, 2023 4:10am Nov 1, 2023 4:10am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Realistically, though, it is because they need most traders to lose. When the so-called liquidity and fills are all simulated, then it becomes difficult to dispute.
If you have 500 copiers and they are good - you want to Abook them right? But when you abook them they will instantly lose. Theres no risk offramp for copiers.
  • #25,212
  • Nov 1, 2023 4:56am Nov 1, 2023 4:56am
I think that most remote prop firms have no real intention to A-book anyone. For them, better to just ban all copy services so that they can mitigate risk at the door; allowing them in would be a lose-lose situation for the firm, in most cases.
  • #25,213
  • Nov 1, 2023 5:07am Nov 1, 2023 5:07am
Quoting forexbali
{quote} thank you perfect, now I understand how it works! {quote} Do we have a list of prop firm for futures than are regulate and with an easy access to challenges?
Just did a cheat check with GPT4 AI search engine. It said this basically:

 

  1. In the United States, futures prop firms are regulated by the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) and the National Futures Association (NFA) 1.
  2. Firms that offer virtual currency commodity futures or facilitate trading in those instruments must be registered with the CFTC and NFA

As I understand futures prop firms online are all in USA thus regulated.
The headquarters of Apex Prop Firm is located in West Knoxville, Tennessee, USA
Earn2Trade's headquarters is located in Sheridan, Wyoming, United States
The headquarters of Topstep, a prop trading firm, is located in Chicago, Illinois, United States

As for challenges. Right now Apex appears to be the best one since no DD limit apart from trailing threshold, and unlimited time. Just a couple of such futures prop firms exist. That and LMITrade and OneUp. OneUp got bad rumors behind scenes. Topstep the same think they still got time limit and DD limit. Earn2trade same as Topstep. Oh yea Leeloo trading also got bad reputation on social media, long waiting times for withdrawals if I recall correct.

  • #25,214
  • Nov 1, 2023 5:34am Nov 1, 2023 5:34am
Quoting Nsak3y
I think that most remote prop firms have no real intention to A-book anyone. For them, better to just ban all copy services so that they can mitigate risk at the door; allowing them in would be a lose-lose situation for the firm, in most cases.
this is defeatist. Banning the copy services serves two purposes perhaps.

If a-booking a bunch of copiers was a profitable exercise, you would just a-book them and copy them at the same time beyond their own trades. The problem is, retailers are used to bullshit market conditions. And alot of successful strategies even things taught in courses are dependent on the bullshit conditions.
  • #25,215
  • Nov 1, 2023 5:39am Nov 1, 2023 5:39am
APEX, like others, it's just a videogame.
They are registered in US (to be able to have live data from CME without issues) but not regulated because it's just a videogame.

This is from their T&C:

Apex Trader Funding Inc, hereinafter referred to as COMPANY and all of its services are purely for educational purposes. COMPANY adamantly states that nothing in any of its software, tools, websites, webinars and other communication method constitutes a solicitation, promotion, endorsement, offer, or recommendation to buy or sell any investment vehicle. Neither COMPANY, its owners and operators, its subsidiaries, officers, employees, representatives, nor independent contractors are acting as licensed financial advisors. COMPANY is acting SOLELY as an education firm providing research tools and any trading done is for the sole and explicit purpose of illustrating the mechanics of a trade as an example for purely educational purposes. Your trades may lose the maximum loss. There is no assurance you will make profits or limit risk to less than the maximum risk on said product.
....
INDEPENDENT CONTRACTORS
For purposes of risk management PA accounts begin as sim and are monitored for long term consistency. Customers are independent contractors not account holders or owners and are trading in a simulation funding environment not using actual live funded accounts. The environment is using exchange based CME, Comex, Nymex & Cbot data to be evaluated using third party platforms and data feeds not controlled in any way by Apex, before being moved into a live money actual funded account. For the purpose of simulated profit made in a pa account sim payout, compensation is based on the performance achieved in the simulated account. It's apex's obligation to fulfill payouts of amount due to customer as an independent contractors from simulated accounts whether simulated trades where copied or not or live trades where made or not and Apex shall make those payouts from available Apex membership fees, revenues, copy or live trading.
  • #25,216
  • Nov 1, 2023 5:41am Nov 1, 2023 5:41am
It's not a problem to be a videogame. Most of us here know, for a long time, that we are playing trading videogames where we insert a coin to play and, if we are lucky enough, the machine returns some coins from time to time.

We just need to look at the videogame rules, price and risk and decide if that's attractive.
  • #25,217
  • Nov 1, 2023 6:09am Nov 1, 2023 6:09am
ok so we know at which game we are playing with APEX

I would think just to test their "group" feature, to test 2 accounts.

Last issue with APEX, till they will do business... is: about payout for Europeans, what they are saying exactly? they was using Wise but wise terminated relationship I think with all props.

So which method they have right now? I guess lots of you are without US bank details, so what to do? any idea?

Consider that apex challenge cost just 17$, I spent like to have for free a demo with live data and train myself, not such a big deal if I cannot withdraw the funds, but it's a pity to spend time for nothing. As I pass the eval, I will see what happen, and I will look for other futures prop.
in holiday till end of November
  • #25,218
  • Nov 1, 2023 6:29am Nov 1, 2023 6:29am
Quoting forexbali
ok so we know at which game we are playing with APEX I would think just to test their "group" feature, to test 2 accounts. Last issue with APEX, till they will do business... is: about payout for Europeans, what they are saying exactly? they was using Wise but wise terminated relationship I think with all props. So which method they have right now? I guess lots of you are without US bank details, so what to do? any idea? Consider that apex challenge cost just 17$, I spent like to have for free a demo with live data and train myself, not such a big...
Rather than pay their monthly fees it would suit many better to save up those fees to fund a micro Futures account or simply put a small sum like $1000 to fund such Micro Future account ( AMP and Tradovate have an intraday margin of $50 for example) - wire money to and from the bank outside USA or ACH within USA.
every Saint has a past. Every Sinner has a Future
  • #25,219
  • Nov 1, 2023 6:32am Nov 1, 2023 6:32am
Quoting forexbali
ok so we know at which game we are playing with APEX I would think just to test their "group" feature, to test 2 accounts. Last issue with APEX, till they will do business... is: about payout for Europeans, what they are saying exactly? they was using Wise but wise terminated relationship I think with all props. So which method they have right now? I guess lots of you are without US bank details, so what to do? any idea? Consider that apex challenge cost just 17$, I spent like to have for free a demo with live data and train myself, not such a big...
Try looking at their socials for these answers. Their large FB group has answers to a lot of your questions. Including traders getting paid who live outside the USA,
Trade with confidence, trade without fear.
  • #25,220
  • Nov 1, 2023 6:32am Nov 1, 2023 6:32am
Quoting turnip15
{quote} Rather than pay their monthly fees it would suit many better to save up those fees to fund a micro Futures account or simply put a small sum like $1000 to fund such Micro Future account ( AMP and Tradovate have an intraday margin of $50 for example) - wire money to and from the bank outside USA or ACH within USA.
...or doing both. Since the evaluation does not cost any significant money. You can maximize income by trading personal account AND evaluation. Until you are too big...
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