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Is trading Forex immoral??

  • #21
  • Jun 10, 2007 5:11am Jun 10, 2007 5:11am
Yep, it's immoral. We're all going to hell. I hope it isn't run by Refco!
  • #22
  • Jun 10, 2007 6:15am Jun 10, 2007 6:15am
I don't mind taking someone's else money as long as I know there will be times when somebody will take money from me. ANYONE who enters the market knows the risk. The same goes with business. Trading is not a game for me.It's strictly business.
  • #23
  • Jun 10, 2007 6:51am Jun 10, 2007 6:51am
Its supply and demand we are providing it to the marketplace giving them others the ability to conduct business with other countries...
Immoral, no
...just trying to learn RandellStl
  • #24
  • Jun 10, 2007 6:52am Jun 10, 2007 6:52am
Quoting zamakhtar
There is a lot about economics in the Islamic sources, especially pertaining to trade and so I know there is guidance even in these matters. Scholars that I trust have said that Forex is valid as long as one does not take or give interest and as long as it is spot (not futures), and this verdict is enough for me to trade Forex with a clear conscience.
But Forex does take or give interest. For example the carry trade. And in effect, every forex pair has interest paid or interest earned per trade. On the other hand, maybe you are using a broker whose platform is free of any interest.

Lou
  • #25
  • Jun 10, 2007 7:15am Jun 10, 2007 7:15am
My church is very much opposed to gambling.

There are a number of members who trade the markets- Including my minister.

I have had several discussions with him about this hypocrisy. (No, I don't use the word "hypocrisy")

Trading is gambling- period.

Traders do provide a service by insuring liquidity- I agree.

Gamblers provide a similar service by keeping the odds offered by the house as low as possible.

Casino gambling is entertainment. Gamblers keep the price of this entertainment down.

If gambling is immoral then so is trading.

I don't think either one of them are immoral.
  • #26
  • Jun 10, 2007 7:41am Jun 10, 2007 7:41am
Yes gambling is what i thought about it when first started. First thing that came to my mind was 'wow why didn't someone showed me this earlier?'. As time went on and i gave back all my winnings i knew how dangerous trading was as much as rewarding. I began to look at it like a job just like the part-time job i had at the time and i knew there had to be a lot of learning and practice before i could be on my way to keep all the pips that i had worked so hard for.
In my opinion trading is a job and not gambling. Gambling is based on luck and emotions. As professional traders we know when to place a position based on a lot of hard work and years of experience and thats why only 5% profit from what we do.
  • #27
  • Jun 10, 2007 8:36am Jun 10, 2007 8:36am
Quoting MackS10
In my opinion trading is a job and not gambling. Gambling is based on luck and emotions. As professional traders we know when to place a position based on a lot of hard work and years of experience and thats why only 5% profit from what we do.
Amen.
  • #28
  • Jun 10, 2007 9:13am Jun 10, 2007 9:13am
I'm looking for +EV. Whether it be 4 to 1 pot odds while I have 15 outs to the nuts, a dog that should be 2 to 1 but I'm getting 2.75 to 1, or buying on a dip at 50% retracement. It makes no difference to me.

The stated % of successful sportsbetters, poker players, and traders over the long term is about the same across all 3 activities--hmmmmm wonder why?

The reality is gambling is binary. It's 1 or 0. If the return is not guaranteed 100% of the time then it's in fact a gamble. You flip a coin, and I bet a $1 each flip. Tails you take my $1, heads you pay me $1.05. Doesn't matter my +EV, I'm gambling with each flip.


Good gamblers\traders make adjustments and adapt.

The only reason I started trading was that my government took (is taking) away my ability to gamble online. It was part time job for a lot of people.
Ok , cool I'll play another game for money one that you say is "legal"- trading.
I'll adapt, take my ability to identify +EV to another arena because it makes no difference to me. I'm not married to poker, sportsbetting, or trading. I'm married to +EV.


The only reason I've been successful in this business to this point is my ability to gamble properly. The psychology of a seasoned gambler bolds well in this business.

One could argue that if you are not hedging, then trading is more of a gamble than playing limit poker. In limit poker I know what the return is, I know specifically the odds of the event happening and the amount risked. Thus my +EV positively defined.

In trading, you don't know what the odds are of the trade going your way or the odds of hitting your profit target(the odds of the event happening) . The value(+EV) you associate with the trade is perceived.

Yes, I know the trade can only go up or down --50\50 on the elementary level- if you want to go that route. Well, either team A or team B has to win so the same 50\50 in sportsbetting right?, but sportsbetting is gambling? It's all gambling.

Funny, tell someone you are a private investor and they ask you what do you invest in, what type of investments?

Tell them you invest in Home Dogs in the NFL and they will look at you like you are a degenerate.

Tell them you invest in Kings and Aces. Again, they will look at you in a negative light.

Tell them you invest in futures, show them tradestation or some charting package with a bunch of worthless indicators and they look at you like you are smart.

Mass confusion, caused by vast illusion.
  • #29
  • Jun 10, 2007 9:19am Jun 10, 2007 9:19am
Quoting Prime#
I'm looking for +EV. Whether it be 4 to 1 pot odds while I have 15 outs to the nuts, a dog that should be 2 to 1 but I'm getting 2.75 to 1, or buying on a dip at 50% retracement. It makes no difference to me.

The stated % of successful sportsbetters, poker players, and traders over the long term is about the same across all 3 activities--hmmmmm wonder why?

The reality is gambling is binary. It's 1 or 0. If the return is not guaranteed 100% of the time then it's in fact a gamble. You flip a coin, and I bet a $1 each flip. Tails you take my $1, heads you pay me $1.05. Doesn't matter my +EV, I'm gambling with each flip.


Good gamblers\traders make adjustments and adapt.

The only reason I started trading was that my government took (is taking) away my ability to gamble online. It was part time job for a lot of people.
Ok , cool I'll play another game for money one that you say is "legal"- trading.
I'll adapt, take my ability to identify +EV to another arena because it makes no difference to me. I'm not married to poker, sportsbetting, or trading. I'm married to +EV.


The only reason I've been successful in this business to this point is my ability to gamble properly. The psychology of a seasoned gambler bolds well in this business.

One could argue that if you are not hedging, then trading is more of a gamble than playing limit poker. In limit poker I know what the return is, I know specifically the odds of the event happening and the amount risked. Thus my +EV positively defined.

In trading, you don't know what the odds are of the trade going your way or the odds of hitting your profit target(the odds of the event happening) . The value(+EV) you associate with the trade is perceived.

Yes, I know the trade can only go up or down --50\50 on the elementary level- if you want to go that route. Well, either team A or team B has to win so the same 50\50 in sportsbetting right?, but sportsbetting is gambling? It's all gambling.

Funny, tell someone you are a private investor and they ask you what do you invest in, what type of investments?

Tell them you invest in Home Dogs in the NFL and they will look at you like you are a degenerate.

Tell them you invest in Kings and Aces. Again, they will look at you in a negative light.

Tell them you invest in futures, show them tradestation or some charting package with a bunch of worthless indicators and they look at you like you are smart.

Mass confusion, caused by vast illusion.
Welcome to FF.... Now that is a great first post..

Thanks
  • #30
  • Jun 10, 2007 9:22am Jun 10, 2007 9:22am
when an entrepreneur opens a business he is taking a risk and is a form of gamble because he is not sure of the outcome.

when a forex trader takes a trade, it is just like the entrepreneur,

Still a risk, still a gamble..

hey, life is a gamble. Why go to work when u could get hit by a bus or the train blew up by terrorist? Because it is a risk u must take to survive in the long run

Life = gamble.

NOW, the part that is troublesome is if the gambling is making our life worst and we dont recognise it and move on.

Jesus turned water into wine, Abraham drank wine and got drunk. Why do christians see alchohol as a bad thing? Cuz they dont know the difference between alchoholism and just having a drink.

Forex is not immoral, unless u make it


-------------------------
100% of traders are losers. Just that some win more than they lose!
  • #31
  • Jun 10, 2007 12:53pm Jun 10, 2007 12:53pm
Quoting billbss
My church is very much opposed to gambling.

There are a number of members who trade the markets- Including my minister.

I have had several discussions with him about this hypocrisy. (No, I don't use the word "hypocrisy")

Trading is gambling- period.
trading is only gambling if you don't know what you're doing.
  • #32
  • Jun 10, 2007 1:11pm Jun 10, 2007 1:11pm
Quoting aicccia
trading is only gambling if you don't know what you're doing.
Aicccia, it is more like playing blackjack then. That is ... rather than slot machines. You can have a system playing blackjack, slot machine play is gambling.
The market is my nation. Traders, my family. Hello, brothers and sisters!
  • #33
  • Jun 10, 2007 1:19pm Jun 10, 2007 1:19pm
Quoting aicccia
trading is only gambling if you don't know what you're doing.
Trading is gambling whether you know what you're doing or not.

Definition-
wagering money or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.

Unless you have a 100% win rate, each trade you make has an uncertain outcome.
  • #34
  • Jun 10, 2007 1:28pm Jun 10, 2007 1:28pm
Quoting athalon7
I may be wrong but liquidity cannot be the answer, can it?
yes, it can. to really understand the commodity trader's purpose in the world, you must have an understanding for the history of the market. a good book to read on the subject is Wheels of Fortune. this book is every bit as important as a money management book. to truly appreciate the game we are playing, we must first understand the history.

btw, this question being asked in this thread, is trading immoral....this question has been thoroughly debated for over 100 years. politicians have won and lost elections based on their stance on the issue, the question has frequently been the focus of the nation, and many presidents have weighted in on this. this is a VERY old argument, and the fact that the markets still exist (and thrive) is evidence that trading is indeed moral
Relax and be happy.
  • #35
  • Jun 10, 2007 1:35pm Jun 10, 2007 1:35pm
Quoting billbss
Unless you have a 100% win rate, each trade you make has an uncertain outcome.
true...but looking at the next 100 trades, the outcome becomes more certain. which is not gambling.

also, by your interpretation, casinos would be considered gamblers, and clearly they are not:
Relax and be happy.
  • #36
  • Jun 10, 2007 1:49pm Jun 10, 2007 1:49pm
Quoting merlin
true...but looking at the next 100 trades, the outcome becomes more certain. which is not gambling.

also, by your interpretation, casinos would be considered gamblers, and clearly they are not:
It depends on the time scale. In the very short term a Casino is a gambler, because the outcome of any individual bet is not certain. However, because of their edge in every game on the floor, from a long term outlook it is not a gamble, because the outcome is absolutely certain based on the percentage of their edge.
  • #37
  • Jun 10, 2007 1:52pm Jun 10, 2007 1:52pm
Quoting merlin
true...but looking at the next 100 trades, the outcome becomes more certain. which is not gambling.

also, by your interpretation, casinos would be considered gamblers, and clearly they are not:

I look at the last 100 games of team A, the outcome becomes more certain, it is still gambling.

Casinos do gamble it's just with +EV. They have an autogamble EA which only takes bets responsibly with the edge in their favor.
Also why there are limits
One spin on red or black for 200 billion, would they take that bet? Doubt it, too much at stake and no +EV on one spin.

Again, doesn't matter if you give me $1.05 for every tails flipped, each flip is a gamble.
  • #38
  • Jun 10, 2007 1:56pm Jun 10, 2007 1:56pm
Quoting smjones
Welcome to FF.... Now that is a great first post..

Thanks
Thank you, I have learned alot here.
  • #39
  • Jun 10, 2007 2:28pm Jun 10, 2007 2:28pm
Quoting Prime#
One spin on red or black for 200 billion, would they take that bet? Doubt it, too much at stake and no +EV on one spin.
and would a trader make that bet? of course not

so we all agree, each bet is considered a gamble, no matter if made by trader or casino. but over time, it is not a gamble...its a business. traders and casinos play over long periods of time, not a single bet, so both are not gamblers.

what really makes someone a gambler is if they play without an edge. so yes, trading CAN be gambling, like when a novice trades with no edge. just like a casino could be considered a gambler if they dont have an edge. but when you get down to the real traders, and the real casinos, niether are gambling.
Relax and be happy.
  • #40
  • Jun 10, 2007 2:52pm Jun 10, 2007 2:52pm
Quoting merlin
and would a trader make that bet? of course not

so we all agree, each bet is considered a gamble, no matter if made by trader or casino. but over time, it is not a gamble...its a business. traders and casinos play over long periods of time, not a single bet, so both are not gamblers.

what really makes someone a gambler is if they play without an edge. so yes, trading CAN be gambling, like when a novice trades with no edge. just like a casino could be considered a gambler if they dont have an edge. but when you get down to the real traders, and the real casinos, niether are gambling.
I see what you are saying, but you are really trying to change the definition of gambling.

You are saying, in effect, that if one is successful in his wagers (trades), he is not a gambler.

If I bet my life savings on one roll of the dice and won, would it have been a gamble?

I think it would have been.

So success or the lack of it, does not change the fact that trading or shooting craps is gambling.

Also, I do not believe that any trader, no matter how successful in the past, knows he will continue to win. Every system can break down and every methodology can go bad.
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