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  • #24,321
  • Oct 18, 2023 11:25am Oct 18, 2023 11:25am
Quoting lddd
{quote} https://tradertom.com/breakout-strat...-and-dow-open/
https://t.me/c/1238535538/51175
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #24,322
  • Oct 18, 2023 11:26am Oct 18, 2023 11:26am
Quoting Tovip
{quote} I see. I guess it's good that they changed all the wordings to "simulated profit" or "virtual profit" then I wish tax would be virtual too... Jokes aside, I really don't think any of these firms are paying business rate tax on their 20% profit cut...Umm I remember some time ago, someone posted a screenshot saying one firm defines the prop firm-client relationship as signal provider. And it's up to them if they would actually use that signal. I think 5%ers also states it somewhere that it's up to them...
Going deeper on that non sense of paying taxes over their 20%, what if a trader makes 100K profit and they deny the payout ? Will they pay taxes over the entire 100K ?

What a joke when we think about this.
  • #24,323
  • Oct 18, 2023 11:32am Oct 18, 2023 11:32am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Going deeper on that non sense of paying taxes over their 20%, what if a trader makes 100K profit and they deny the payout ? Will they pay taxes over the entire 100K ? What a joke when we think about this.
and the deeper we dig.......the funnier it becomes.There were 3, maybe 4 firms which I believe were in this for the long haul....where a profitable relationship could be attained by both the firm and the trader, one of them was obviously MFF. FTMO and the 5%ers, maybe even CTI are the only remaining which I believe are in it for the long haul.
It is indeed all of these new firms with their joke CEOs posting all over social media, denied payouts and bullshit rules that have made this space the joke that it now is.
  • #24,324
  • Edited 11:47am Oct 18, 2023 11:33am | Edited 11:47am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Going deeper on that non sense of paying taxes over their 20%, what if a trader makes 100K profit and they deny the payout ? Will they pay taxes over the entire 100K ? What a joke when we think about this.
But the question is how they officially say what they do. I mean if they just play marketing tricks to get a wrong impression for their customers it may be misleading and that is not allowed. Nowhere in no country. So the only option would be honest. That there is in reality no profit split, it is all 100% and that is from fees and not from profits, because those virtual profits are to 99.9% at least b-booked. When they are honest everyone can understand the game better. Then there is some transparency also required, how much cash they have and how much they paid out within a certain time frame. That must be published regularly, so one can know how much are the odds that a payout, without denying it, is possible. Or how solvent is the company right now based on their cash flows as it is all from challenge fees financed. Honesty and transparency is what I demand. Else this is dirty from the prop and then it all should be fully taxed.
I mean they might play on this that the tax authorities and regulators are independent and do not know each other so no exchange of information. But I highly doubt this will last long, because if they say A and do B and say to tax authorities that in fact they had no profits on profit split, but do advertise this officially. The tax authorities are in duty to check with regulators if this is really allowed. So then they will forward the case also to the regulators to check whether all is fine or not because they are forced to do so by law whenever there is suspicions. It is just a matter of time I would say.
  • #24,325
  • Oct 18, 2023 12:12pm Oct 18, 2023 12:12pm
Quoting lddd
{quote} Do you know any kind of strategy/system how someone like me could trade the DAX during this time period? I did backtest some reversal and breakout strategies I found online, focusing mainly on the DAX open but couldn’t find one of them leading to any kind of consistent profitable results for the periods I’ve tested. best!
I trade typically off the direction of the new hourly candle. Starting at 10am. I’ll take the trade off the 5M.

For me trading intraday DOW and NQ, it’s mostly Wykoff strategy. Price will either go up, down or sideways. After a sideways move I look for price continuation or retrace. I’ll also look for late period markdowns/markups and trade from there.
Trade with confidence, trade without fear.
  • #24,326
  • Oct 18, 2023 2:54pm Oct 18, 2023 2:54pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} and the deeper we dig.......the funnier it becomes.There were 3, maybe 4 firms which I believe were in this for the long haul....where a profitable relationship could be attained by both the firm and the trader, one of them was obviously MFF. FTMO and the 5%ers, maybe even CTI are the only remaining which I believe are in it for the long haul. It is indeed all of these new firms with their joke CEOs posting all over social media, denied payouts and bullshit rules that have made this space the joke that it now is.
Speaking of this, Angelo has been unusually quiet...
memento mori
  • #24,327
  • Oct 18, 2023 3:06pm Oct 18, 2023 3:06pm
Quoting Vitore
{quote} https://t.me/c/1238535538/51175
I am sorry...I been trying to not ask the question but......












...what are the owls really about? lol Every time I see it, I can't shake the question off my mind.
memento mori
  • #24,328
  • Oct 18, 2023 10:08pm Oct 18, 2023 10:08pm
Hi! I am currently looking at joining FTMO, but i would like to know more about the situation regarding the actual relationship I will have with the company after i pass assessment. Does anyone know where I can find a sample of their prop trader contract?

I've looked through their GTC and it doesn't seem to cover anything about the actual profit sharing and trading portion except that it is a relationship with a "third party company". Would like to find out more about the taxation and employment details particularly.
  • #24,329
  • Oct 18, 2023 11:03pm Oct 18, 2023 11:03pm
Quoting Tovip
{quote} Speaking of this, Angelo has been unusually quiet...
Packing his bag waiting for the FBI
  • #24,330
  • Oct 18, 2023 11:21pm Oct 18, 2023 11:21pm
Stats from Funded Engineer. % payout is the % of people that achieve a payout from the ones that passed the challenge.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: FE.jpeg Size: 294 KB
  • #24,331
  • Oct 19, 2023 12:05am Oct 19, 2023 12:05am
Quoting Capablanca
Stats from Funded Engineer. % payout is the % of people that achieve a payout from the ones that passed the challenge. {image}
With those stats difficult to survive for them, until they cut/deny some payouts.
  • #24,332
  • Oct 19, 2023 12:15am Oct 19, 2023 12:15am
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} With those stats difficult to survive for them, until they cut/deny some payouts.
1-5% of people that approach the challenge getting a pay out is difficult to survive?

Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} With those stats difficult to survive for them, until they cut/deny some payouts.
1-5% of people that approach the challenge getting a pay out is difficult to survive?
  • #24,333
  • Oct 19, 2023 12:20am Oct 19, 2023 12:20am
Quoting Tobiazzek
{quote} 1-5% of people that approach the challenge getting a pay out is difficult to survive? {quote} 1-5% of people that approach the challenge getting a pay out is difficult to survive?
Yes, depending on the size of payouts or how many payouts are made with one funded account. Clearly yes is the answer. For the 500k account it is at 5% which is very high and bigger accounts means higher payouts too. 5% getting a payout means 20 times the challenge fee for the prop as compensation. So if that person 1 out of 20 is doing 10% gain on his funded account, the prop is already broke. It can also be multiple payouts up to 10% in sum together which can cause huge headaches for FE.
  • #24,334
  • Oct 19, 2023 12:34am Oct 19, 2023 12:34am
Remember just before I made roughly +10% profits for my funded accounts on several payouts in sum I got kicked out from Bespoke. If they have similar stat numbers it could be explained why they are forced to do so. If the prop cannot survive at the 10% level it means that even with 2% passing rate you latest get red flagged by the prop when you do 25% in gains from multiple payouts together of one funded account. So it is not nice to trade against the prop, it just leaves a bad feeling the more you win the more they want you to get rid off. And the fun starts really at the +10% gain level on a funded account, where you get your ROI of your invested challenge fee. If you then need to start over (same or other prop it does not mind) then you loose again a lot of time until you reach the funded level, because a lot of effort from the trader is needed. Not good overall. Earlier last year the passing rate was at the 1% level. If it is now around 5% just beware you cannot do any serious money anymore with any prop. You need to be lucky that they will payout you without any problems, because in average they cannot do this anymore when they do not want to ruin themselves. The crowd already got more proficient in trading it seems or the better ones are still trading on props and the other worse ones already gave up.
  • #24,335
  • Oct 19, 2023 1:54am Oct 19, 2023 1:54am
If the CEO Bespoke can kick me out just because I have a professional background then also every other prop firm maybe subject to do so (just to say it in different words or for any other "reason"). Bespoke feared because of my background I could do many more payouts that will hurt them. That is the only possible explanation.
  • #24,336
  • Oct 19, 2023 1:59am Oct 19, 2023 1:59am
Quoting TrAndy1
If the CEO Bespoke can kick me out just because I have a professional background then also every other prop firm maybe subject to do so (just to say it in different words or for any other "reason"). Bespoke feared because of my background I could do many more payouts that will hurt them. That is the only possible explanation.
The background was just a very easy excuse. You could be a teacher or a janitor and they would kick you as well if they sensed you were very profitable.

In that case they would invent something else or fabricated anything like IPs, copy trading or confidential information that you were group trading.
  • #24,337
  • Oct 19, 2023 2:00am Oct 19, 2023 2:00am
Now I also understand that when you have too many funded accounts in sum on too many props, they will exchange info so they know each other what the trader is doing there. That will cause additional problems, because when you are known that you have $2million in funding or more they will classify you as threat to them because you have shown that you really profitable. Like I have been excused because of my background. Anyone who can do payouts consistently they do not want to serve you. So if anyone wants to get big over prop firms there might be some serious difficulties to do so. The trading part is the much smaller problem here. Too bad.
  • #24,338
  • Oct 19, 2023 2:01am Oct 19, 2023 2:01am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} The background was just a very easy excuse. You could be a teacher or a janitor and they would kick you as well if they sensed you were very profitable. In that case they would invent something else or fabricated anything like IPs, copy trading or confidential information that you were group trading.
Yes, I guess for sure. Only the reason for banning would change but not the result. Too sad.
  • #24,339
  • Oct 19, 2023 2:04am Oct 19, 2023 2:04am
I still don't get why you told them about your background. Silence and secrecy towards prop firms should be our behavior, unless we need to contact them to solve anything (and for that we don't need to tell them what we do in your life).

The only one that asked me that was funded next in a interview before one of the payouts. All the other props have no idea if I'm a fisherman, a cooker or a bank clerk.
  • #24,340
  • Edited 2:28am Oct 19, 2023 2:06am | Edited 2:28am
I guess this prop thing only works when you have smaller accounts or not more than $1 million in funding of all prop firms together and then doing only lower 4-digits payouts. That will ensure you are under the radar. But maybe also as long as you do not do it for too long. If you are again too consistently in getting payouts regularly you also could get problems. That was not the case with MFF and still FTMO. But all the other props will make problems sooner or later. That is not the real path to make a steady income or trade for a living. In the end you are forced to trade on your own personal account. You can only use prop firms to have a kick start, that is all.

So the remaining question is how much you can do on prop firms as payout in sum before you get problems (except former MFF and FTMO of course) ? It is 50k like me or 100k if you do it more clever, but then you might need much more time to get those 100k in payouts. Any opinions or facts on that ? From what I heard there are a very few traders who pulled out over $1 million in payouts, but mostly through FTMO and MFF, and maybe TFT. On all the other props I have not seen much payouts.
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