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  • #16,921
  • Jun 22, 2023 7:35pm Jun 22, 2023 7:35pm
Looks Great..
  • #16,922
  • Jun 22, 2023 7:46pm Jun 22, 2023 7:46pm
I know that most people think that props live off challenge fees, pay off few successful traders or try to find an excuse and get rid of them etc.

That maybe all true but consider this:

As a prop firm blowing your horns and competing to get more and more people to join, you'd be bound to grab a few 'good traders' with your dragnet. I mean good traders that just meet all expectations and constantly are profitable and don't have the 8crap name calling issues with the prop's broker or any other issues. They are like champ trades that every investor with cash dreams of. OK? It's proven that these traders are the real deal.

So, the business of prop aside and all that goes with it, as a prop owner, you find yourself cozy with a cash printing money machine wizard at your service. This wiz kid makes say 10%/mo and even more. So, wouldn't you be more than willing to fund this or these traders with real cash and enjoy a windfall every month while you run your prop firm as the main cover for really netting the best?

Or you'd rather squash these good traders and just stick with the challenge easy cash?

There has got to be some prop that actually takes advantage of a slew of proven money makers at their disposal instead of just killing them.
  • #16,923
  • Edited 8:28pm Jun 22, 2023 8:16pm | Edited 8:28pm
Quoting OutThere
So, wouldn't you be more than willing to fund this or these traders with real cash and enjoy a windfall every month while you run your prop firm as the main cover for really netting the best? ... There has got to be some prop that actually takes advantage of a slew of proven money makers at their disposal instead of just killing them.
-Maybe. But something to consider is that this is not just simply A-booking a trader, this is A-booking a trader that you are actually funding with your own money. So, it is a risky endeavor. Maybe they would rather burn and churn on something that is more predictable and less risky (challenge fees). Just my guess, anyway.

There may be some firms that A-book traders, though, or at the very least, use their signals for their own accounts.
  • #16,924
  • Jun 22, 2023 8:58pm Jun 22, 2023 8:58pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Maybe. But something to consider is that this is not just simply A-booking a trader, this is A-booking a trader that you are actually funding with your own money. So, it is a risky endeavor. Maybe they would rather burn and churn on something that is more predictable and less risky (challenge fees). Just my guess, anyway. There may be some firms that A-book traders, though, or at the very least, use their signals for their own accounts.
I like the term A-booking but in which other way would a prop A-book a trader other than by funding them with the prop's own money?
I guess, there are 2 kinds of props. Those that A-book traders for the purpose of funding them with the prop's money and then we have the props that don't A-book at all because it is too risky for them to give them real money.

That distinction is all that we are all looking for.
  • #16,925
  • Jun 22, 2023 9:12pm Jun 22, 2023 9:12pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-I think that, from a business perspective, there are some considerations that can be made regarding the potential downfalls for the unlimited model. For example, pass (fail) rates are a driving force behind the sustainability of these prop firms, especially long-term. So if unlimited time allows for greater pass rates (fewer fail rates), then this could be a potential downfall. There are also potential issues that may arise with server costs, data processing and efficiency, administrative time/costs etc., which can not only impact your bottom...
I think that there may be some kind of compromise. For 100K challenge account that costs 500 dollars, if at the end of every 30-day period, a trader asks for an extension of 30 days, he needs to pay 50 dollars. So if it takes 6 months, the trader pays a total of 750 dollars; if it takes one year, he pays 1050. Traders will feel some pressure to pass as fast as they can. If it takes too long it's not worth it.
  • #16,926
  • Jun 22, 2023 9:12pm Jun 22, 2023 9:12pm
Quoting OutThere
I like the term A-booking but in which other way would a prop A-book a trader other than by funding them with the prop's own money?
-Traditional A-book (via broker) is not funded by the broker. This is what I mean. Since this type of A-book with a prop would have to be funded by the prop, then it would be very risky.

Quoting OutThere
I guess, there are 2 kinds of props. Those that A-book traders for the purpose of funding them with the prop's money and then we have the props that don't A-book at all because it is too risky for them to give them real money. That distinction is all that we are all looking for.
-Probably, any good prop will have a hybrid model. The challenge model does not require real money from the firm, since it's just recycled from challenge fees. The risk is much smaller, I suppose. But, any diversification to generate revenue outside of just the challenge model will likely help any firm to survive longer, depending on how things are done.

I do not know if A-book is better than other alternative revenue schemes, since probably, even educational material/courses/memberships etc. are much more predictable and less risky. But most firms are not even considering this, it seems. Maybe they believe that it is counterproductive.
  • #16,927
  • Jun 22, 2023 9:14pm Jun 22, 2023 9:14pm
Quoting ladder
For 100K challenge account that costs 500 dollars, if at the end of every 30-day period, a trader asks for an extension of 30 days, he needs to pay 50 dollars. So if it takes 6 months, the trader pays a total of 750 dollars; if it takes one year, he pays 1050. Traders will feel some pressure to pass as fast as they can. If it takes too long it's not worth it.
-Yes! This is exactly what I have proposed as a solution. It seems reasonable, especially if the extra fees are also refundable upon successful completion of challenge(s).

Some firms are already offering unlimited without any extra costs, however. So, maybe it will be difficult to persuade any better model.
  • #16,928
  • Jun 22, 2023 9:33pm Jun 22, 2023 9:33pm
Quoting OutThere
{quote} Your suggestions are pretty much what blows up an account. How about: Don't trade a volatile pair especially during ba volatile session. Don't trade lower time-frames to eliminate false signals and whiplash. Don't trade bigger position sizes cause they also do come with bigger losses. And yes, what is the hurry when there are firms that offer unlimited time? Got it. Thanks.
Ideal world it makes sense. But problem with that approach is it doesn't apply to most of traders or most of traders dont use it. The main intent of most of traders approaching prop firm is to build quick capital and flip account. If trader is patient enough lots of offshore brokers gives 500:1 leverage one doesn't even need prop firm.
  • #16,929
  • Jun 22, 2023 9:35pm Jun 22, 2023 9:35pm
Quoting MJurban
{quote} Hi you had no answer so far I guess? I v d watch some Videos on yuotub im not Sure but problly test this one{image} what do you think is worth the affort? I
I have bought this challange but could not really Start by now cause my wife Was in Hospital and I was visiting her day by day.
monday I will start, i still have some days left trying to make 1000 EU profit
The Chances are very Little cause that's not my style, trading with high Risk 10 % in 1 or 2 month
What I can say by now... the spread this Broker use is twice as much as my Broker gives me
That's not good for a scalper like me
  • #16,930
  • Jun 22, 2023 9:57pm Jun 22, 2023 9:57pm
Quoting sampat
{quote} Ideal world it makes sense. But problem with that approach is it doesn't apply to most of traders or most of traders dont use it. The main intent of most of traders approaching prop firm is to build quick capital and flip account. If trader is patient enough lots of offshore brokers gives 500:1 leverage one doesn't even need prop firm.
If yuo have such an stupid income tax Regulation as we have in germany. it would be nice to trade with a prop firm. cause income than is not from Kapital but from provision
  • #16,931
  • Jun 22, 2023 11:04pm Jun 22, 2023 11:04pm
Quoting OutThere
{quote} Ya, EASY DOES IT. Good job for recovering.
Thats the way to go.
  • #16,932
  • Jun 23, 2023 12:12am Jun 23, 2023 12:12am
Quoting Nehemah
{quote} All these interview requests are tiring (almost all the props) I never know how to refuse, it's uncomfortable. How are you doing about yourself ?
I was not referring to those. Those are done voluntarily. In the past I still replied 2 or 3 times thanking and saying I was not interested. Now I just simply ignore.

The ones of Funded Next are compulsory for some people, otherwise they don't go from phase 2 to funded or don't receive the payout. As far as I know Funded Next is the only one doing that (and don't have this in T&C or FAQs).
  • #16,933
  • Edited 1:42am Jun 23, 2023 1:32am | Edited 1:42am
Interesting conversations about no time limit or extended time limits.
I don't tend to loiter on discord anymore but saw someone post something about MFF and a new programme which may address this and would be cool.

In my opinion extending time is the only way to have ANY credibility in this industry and avoid criticism/litigation.

You are either running a ponzi looking for fees or you are something else but you cannot advertise to recruit a contractor under false pretences and demand unreasonable conditions whilst charging a fee, this is simply fraud and will be legally challenged. You can wave all the T&Cs you want at this, certainly if you are UK based, you do not have a legal leg to stand on and will be cut down, probably the same in other countries. The sooner these ponzis leave this space the better it will be for all of us.

PropSuperstarOwner wants a builder to build a house to his high specifications, 20% of successful builders can do it 180 days. He wants to recruit a builder and says "give me $1000 and build that house in 30 days you can then build the rest of my houses forever", this builder is poor but manages to scrape together the money because he is a bit desperate and might just be able to do it. PropSuperstarOwner has no intention of building that house.

I don't want regulation but everyone should have a serious think about who they spend their money with, the ethics behind that set up (i can't even call them a company any more) and the fact you may be funding continuous fraud and enabling harm to those less fortunate than yourself by supporting this fraud.
Perhaps the best regulation is self regulation, if you don't like their trading conditions and terms then simply don't give them your money?

Peace
  • #16,934
  • Jun 23, 2023 2:15am Jun 23, 2023 2:15am
After reading posts about unlimited time have to say I do not agree it is good idea. This will lead props to look extra income from profitable traders because there will be big amount of accounts going up and downs slowly, lot of EAs dreamers etc, but after all stats shows that most will fail. If unlimited time would be that good why most traders fail on social platforms over time and only few manage capital in long-term (over 1 year time). And scammers will have unlimited time to hedge accounts with small positions and it will only do more chaos.

I believe the model should go the way that if u like extra features pay more. Balance drawdown, unlimited time , bigger% pay out just pay extra, if you don't need it like me get cheap option and trade.
  • #16,935
  • Jun 23, 2023 2:35am Jun 23, 2023 2:35am
How unlimited model will survive?? It will be basically like trading brokerage account with only difference that u got daily SL and you pay 10% of capital you get. If we agree that payouts come mostly from fees supporting this all super easy features is like shooting your own leg. If u are profitable trader you want props earn as much as they can so you will have guarantee you get paid. It is no charity, everyone need to do his job. There is plenty of traders who are at markets more than 10 years at this discussion so why they would support anyone who wants everything for free and don't do hard work?? As I said i am not against this features but if you want go easy way pay extra.
  • #16,936
  • Jun 23, 2023 2:36am Jun 23, 2023 2:36am
Quoting youngD
I believe the model should go the way that if u like extra features pay more. Balance drawdown, unlimited time , bigger% pay out just pay extra, if you don't need it like me get cheap option and trade.
Yeah, I have proposed that for each extension of 30 days, traders need to pay 10% of the original challenge fee.
  • #16,937
  • Jun 23, 2023 2:45am Jun 23, 2023 2:45am
As Takisd said it will kill props. First you pay small fee and get larger capital. All you need is few Eas generating small profits over time and running it accross few props. Basic martingale or grid Ea will generate profit over time on cross FX pairs the ones ranging mostly. And consider that there might be opportunity to all social trading gurus and cheaters to get into prop industry because they love unlimited time and they don't care if they fail one day they will use system as far as it pays and after they take toys to other playground. But this will lead to larger costs for props, more support more transactions less capital coming and we will pay for this. If someone got long-term strategy and is profitable I believe this kind of trader buy only challenge few times a year and know that he will get refund so it is no big deal for. Him to pay extra for unlimited time. Or pay small fee monthly which is basically even better idea.
  • #16,938
  • Jun 23, 2023 2:45am Jun 23, 2023 2:45am
Quoting youngD
How unlimited model will survive?? It will be basically like trading brokerage account with only difference that u got daily SL and you pay 10% of capital you get. If we agree that payouts come mostly from fees supporting this all super easy features is like shooting your own leg. If u are profitable trader you want props earn as much as they can so you will have guarantee you get paid. It is no charity, everyone need to do his job. There is plenty of traders who are at markets more than 10 years at this discussion so why they would support anyone...
There are a few comments in your post that will put me to the opposite side of your view:

"If we agree that payouts come mostly from fees supporting this all super easy features is like shooting your own leg"

If payouts can only be paid by losing fees, this by definition is Ponzi and is illegal. Why would you support illegal behaviour?

"If u are profitable trader you want props earn as much as they can so you will have guarantee you get paid"

Yes of course, but by legal and fair means.

"There is plenty of traders who are at markets more than 10 years at this discussion so why they would support anyone who wants everything for free and don't do hard work?"

They don't support anyone who wants everything for free, you've just made that up.
  • #16,939
  • Jun 23, 2023 2:56am Jun 23, 2023 2:56am
Quoting Fagin
{quote} There are a few comments in your post that will put me to the opposite side of your view: "If we agree that payouts come mostly from fees supporting this all super easy features is like shooting your own leg" If payouts can only be paid by losing fees, this by definition is Ponzi and is illegal. Why would you support illegal behaviour? "If u are profitable trader you want props earn as much as they can so you will have guarantee you get paid" Yes of course, but by legal and fair means. "There is plenty of traders who are at markets more...

I do not support illegal approach. It was discussed here that income comes from fees so I just state fact from our discussion, but to be honest it is fact that on markets if one loose other trader win on opposite site so props are the same just only packed different way. Maybe managing whole trades and flow somehow could be good way to generate income from profitable traders or loosing ones but i do not have any proof that props send trades anywhere in real market so by now is clear what income source is.
  • #16,940
  • Jun 23, 2023 2:56am Jun 23, 2023 2:56am
Quoting youngD
As Takisd said it will kill props. First you pay small fee and get larger capital. All you need is few Eas generating small profits over time and running it accross few props. Basic martingale or grid Ea will generate profit over time on cross FX pairs the ones ranging mostly. And consider that there might be opportunity to all social trading gurus and cheaters to get into prop industry because they love unlimited time and they don't care if they fail one day they will use system as far as it pays and after they take toys to other playground. But...
It's very easy for a prop to employ fair trading rules that suit what they are actually looking for. This talk of fear of EA grid traders clogging up servers for years is nonsense and panders into the hands once again of dodgy props and their consultants peddling their BS..

Also lets move away from unlimited, just like any job you get assessed based on a criteria over a given timeframe, so let's keep it real?
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