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  • #16,741
  • Jun 17, 2023 4:12pm Jun 17, 2023 4:12pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} the telegram groups you speak of are paid to market them. Same as the review sites. Forexpropreviews for example, its all paid nonsense. I am fairly sure most of the big review sites do the same as thats their revenue. Its same model as the broker sites. Truly scum of the scum.
Yep, but people believe in all that sh*. That's why we hear these stories.

I've been using a lot of shady props but I know what I'm running into and how I should approach them to minimize the probability of being left without being paid. But most of the people just believe on those paid actors and then they are surprised like this poor girl.

The groups are not that bad because among all the BS there are still some genuine stories here and there which give us some red flags if we can read inbetween. And we can also see the people running some of the props, which is a unique opportunity. It's worthwhile to see those 2 kids of Bespoke and Blue in action, for example.
  • #16,742
  • Jun 17, 2023 4:25pm Jun 17, 2023 4:25pm
Quoting Capablanca
And that was for video call in Teams where they asked about strategy and where I had to show them how I traded (I was prepared for that and showed them some mumbo jumbo stuff because I don't care to share what I do to some scammers, I just wanted them to pay my money and get rid of them).
-I see. I do not blame you. I would have dropped them immediately if they demanded that from me.

Quoting Capablanca
Funded Next is not a nobody firm. If you checked the traffic some time ago I it was ranked 4th. They were good marketing their sh*. Payout proofs (true or fabricated, I don't know), lots of advertising and a lot of people promoting them.
-You can't polish a turd, no matter how much marketing and traffic you buy.

Quoting Capablanca
I feel sorry for that girl...
-Hopefully, she can work something out so that she can get her money and move on. It sucks to get swindled, especially when you do not have much to begin with. But, trading isn't easy. It's hard and it's risky. As adults, we accept those risks, and as traders, we learn to mitigate them. Send her to this thread if she needs guidance.
  • #16,743
  • Jun 17, 2023 4:30pm Jun 17, 2023 4:30pm
I truly believe that the loud no time limit firms will be first to fall. I have my grid EA's ready to go.
  • #16,744
  • Jun 17, 2023 11:27pm Jun 17, 2023 11:27pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} The email is not much different from the one I received. And that was for video call in Teams where they asked about strategy and where I had to show them how I traded (I was prepared for that and showed them some mumbo jumbo stuff because I don't care to share what I do to some scammers, I just wanted them to pay my money and get rid of them). {quote} Funded Next is not a nobody firm. If you checked the traffic some time ago I it was ranked 4th. They were good marketing their sh*. Payout proofs (true or fabricated, I don't know), lots of...
Haha I remember https://t.me/propfirms promoting bigpips as from kingdom of arabia they all are paid pimps who can sell out their wives if somebody is ready to give money. Moment you put bad things about some firm they either delete comments or block you.
  • #16,745
  • Jun 18, 2023 8:33am Jun 18, 2023 8:33am
I have 6 figure accs on MYFFX and Funded Engineer that are already live and expecting the first payouts.

I am looking to add 2 more no-time limit accs.

One will likely be FXIFY (with no time limit addon), but I am open to recommendations for another one.

After sorting out 4x no time limit accs, my next stop might be E8 and its Extended program, and only then I'll tackle FTMO/MFF, as it will require higher risk than my strategy allows.

List of ones I'm going to skip: The Funded Trader, Funded Trading Plus, Finotive, Bespoke, Funder Pro, Surge Trader

I'm looking for: no time limit, holding over the weekend, no BS hidden rules, 5% daily DD, 8%+ total DD.
Recommendations are welcome.
  • #16,746
  • Jun 18, 2023 8:56am Jun 18, 2023 8:56am
Quoting LehmanBrotha
I have 6 figure accs on MYFFX and Funded Engineer that are already live and expecting the first payouts. I am looking to add 2 more no-time limit accs. One will likely be FXIFY (with no time limit addon), but I am open to recommendations for another one. After sorting out 4x no time limit accs, my next stop might be E8 and its Extended program, and only then I'll tackle FTMO/MFF, as it will require higher risk than my strategy allows. List of ones I'm going to skip: The Funded Trader, Funded Trading Plus, Finotive, Bespoke, Funder Pro, Surge Trader...
5ers may be a good option as there is not much fuss around them, but limited to 100K. I have not experience with them yet because 100K is not too much.

Out of that I don't see much options unless you want to run some risks. I know people here have some aversion to TFT but until they stop paying it's still a viable one for me, at least not more riskier than MFFX or FXIFY, I would say.
Edit: forgot that they announced unlimited for June but they have not launched it yet.
  • #16,747
  • Jun 18, 2023 8:58am Jun 18, 2023 8:58am
Quoting Takisd
I truly believe that the loud no time limit firms will be first to fall. I have my grid EA's ready to go.
Well... what is that becomes the standard ?

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  • #16,748
  • Jun 18, 2023 9:00am Jun 18, 2023 9:00am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Well... what is that becomes the standard ? {image}
they already said its not unlimited Like any sensible company would. My guess is 60 days, more than enough to cure the swing trader who just cant get a set up ills.
  • #16,749
  • Jun 18, 2023 9:46am Jun 18, 2023 9:46am
Any established firm will know their statistics and will probably see that most traders will still fail even if they are given more time. Most traders would probably not even make use of it. Just guessing.

I even wouldn't be surprised if many good traders are trying to complete some challenges as quickly as possible, especially if they already have accounts established and are just throwing money at more challenges etc..

The unlimited time seems stupid for the current model, I think. Maybe it could have worked better if they monetized it with a monthly fee or something, but since so many firms are offering it for free, then that opportunity may have gone out the window.

I would personally prefer to have more time since it would allow me to lower my risk. I always prefer to have more choices. Unlimited is not necessary - at all.
  • #16,750
  • Jun 18, 2023 9:53am Jun 18, 2023 9:53am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} they already said its not unlimited Like any sensible company would. My guess is 60 days, more than enough to cure the swing trader who just cant get a set up ills.
Nice, if they upped to 60/120 I think it would be suitable for my approach. Let's see.
  • #16,751
  • Jun 18, 2023 11:05am Jun 18, 2023 11:05am
Quoting Nsak3y
Any established firm will know their statistics and will probably see that most traders will still fail even if they are given more time. Most traders would probably not even make use of it. Just guessing. I even wouldn't be surprised if many good traders are trying to complete some challenges as quickly as possible, especially if they already have accounts established and are just throwing money at more challenges etc.. The unlimited time seems stupid for the current model, I think. Maybe it could have worked better if they monetized it with a...
I can tell you from data I have seen, that increasing trading days will only benefit a very small handful of people.....maybe but not really, a lot of people like to blow hard about their trading ability and scream about how people should change to suit them but it wont make them win. MFF have always had extension and unlimited free retry for those who dont get the signals they need to pass which is kind of the same thing. I dont see how more time will help a guy running on ruin unless their plan is to wait and yolo to victory, in which case its abusive to the prop firm because why the hell would anyone fund someone who only passed from yoloing? I think FTMO have free retries also, but I am certain those two alone not doing unlimited days means its a very negative thing that cannot be modelled correctly. I tried to model it myself to see what these other firms are doing, but i can't make it work without using trading conditions as a means to increase failure rate. Also, the more they speak the more clear it is to me that if the growth stops they will also. I think the down will happen sooner rather than later.

It also calls into question the truth about some of the stats being pushed around, especially on the newer firms with more lenient conditions. But we all know lamborauls FTMO payout was fake, so wouldnt surprise me if others are running fakes as well. Especially with all the affiliate noise.
  • #16,752
  • Jun 18, 2023 11:55am Jun 18, 2023 11:55am
Quoting Takisd
MFF have always had extension and unlimited free retry for those who dont get the signals they need to pass which is kind of the same thing.
-That's true. I forget about that, since I am so accustomed to thinking in a certain way.

Quoting Takisd
Also, the more they speak the more clear it is to me that if the growth stops they will also.
-You might be right. If we run a theoretical model where the number of new customers becomes zero and the number of current (repeat) customers remains the same, then there will be presumably two factors, both, difficult to measure, that will determine how long the scheme will last (minus regulatory involvement and assuming no profit limits are in place):

1. How good traders become over time. (difficult to predict)
2. How lucky traders may get from time-to-time. (maybe impossible to predict)

These values will offset whatever statistics they are seeing in terms of pass rates and payouts etc.. (I think)

If this is even remotely true, then maybe the key will be for these firms to set aside reserve funds during their growth period and put it into an insurance pool (after overhead) so that they can sustain the model even after profit margins decline over time. Doing so would likely require them to set very reasonable percentages for salaries for paying themselves and employees. Likely, most firms would not do these things.

Obviously, the more that a firm can do to bring in revenue from other sources, the better off they will likely be compared to their competitors, assuming that the offerings are similarly structured.

Just thinking out loud. Maybe I am way off.
  • #16,753
  • Jun 18, 2023 12:08pm Jun 18, 2023 12:08pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-That's true. I forget about that, since I am so accustomed to thinking in a certain way. {quote}-You might be right. If we run a theoretical model where the number of new customers becomes zero and the number of current (repeat) customers remains the same, then there will be presumably two factors, both, difficult to measure, that will determine how long the scheme will last (minus regulatory involvement and assuming no profit limits are in place): 1. How good traders become over time. (difficult to predict) 2. How lucky traders may get...
If a prop firm does not have a means of organizing order flow to generate revenue and not just A-book to hedge risk, then there is also a point where its impossible for them to win.
Its actually why ICMarkets is such a good company and its because of order matching.

But a prop firm, if you have both sides of a ticket then you dont earn both commissions you earn 0. The critical mass that exists in FTMO and MFF is so high I believe their book is mostly hedged and thus, they have to have a solution to that issue. Filling the book with more rubbish flow is not a solution as it will only further hedge it out. I have heard some rumors but most people are tight lipped, but I believe these two companies have solutions for this problem and you absolutely have to have your own server to solve it.

So the two weapons that can kill prop firms are:

1) the ratio of money in vs money out falls apart (the marketing giveaway companies fit into this category)
2) The book auto hedges itself so you are guaranteed to lose no matter what due to the fact you dont have customer deposits and you can't a-book the entire book as it would still lose.

We know who fit into category 1, and as for category 2 there are only 3 companies that fit there and one of them clearly doesn't have a clue.
  • #16,754
  • Jun 18, 2023 12:14pm Jun 18, 2023 12:14pm
Most of it is over my head, that's for sure.
  • #16,755
  • Jun 18, 2023 12:17pm Jun 18, 2023 12:17pm
Quoting Nsak3y
Most of it is over my head, that's for sure.
Think of it this way. If your order book is both long and short and net position is 0. How can you make money from losing traders? Even better yet, how do you know which of the 50/50 are the losers?
  • #16,756
  • Jun 18, 2023 12:32pm Jun 18, 2023 12:32pm
Is the answer be your own broker? I'm not sure.
  • #16,757
  • Jun 18, 2023 12:39pm Jun 18, 2023 12:39pm
Quoting Nsak3y
Any established firm will know their statistics and will probably see that most traders will still fail even if they are given more time. Most traders would probably not even make use of it. Just guessing. I even wouldn't be surprised if many good traders are trying to complete some challenges as quickly as possible, especially if they already have accounts established and are just throwing money at more challenges etc.. The unlimited time seems stupid for the current model, I think. Maybe it could have worked better if they monetized it with a...
Apparently the ones that to monetize it was FXIFY with an add-on to the base price if someone wants unlimited (in fact they change for several things, depending if people want to pay for it or not like biweekly payouts, 90% instead of 75%, etc.).

I would say this would be something that the big forms could come up with because they have plenty of data for it.
  • #16,758
  • Jun 18, 2023 12:44pm Jun 18, 2023 12:44pm
Quoting Nsak3y
Is the answer be your own broker? I'm not sure.
no man, if i had the answer i would be super rich, but i know there are answers out there. Likely some sort of behavioral system that is used to generate revenue off data.
  • #16,759
  • Jun 18, 2023 12:48pm Jun 18, 2023 12:48pm
Quoting Capablanca
Apparently the ones that to monetize it was FXIFY with an add-on to the base price if someone wants unlimited (in fact they change for several things, depending if people want to pay for it or not like biweekly payouts, 90% instead of 75%, etc.).
-Right. I think that maybe any unlimited option would need to be a monthly recurring to work best, probably, since it would ensure that the bills are paid and also motivate traders to finish up instead of clogging servers etc..

I didn't like to see that they were charging extra for things that should probably be included by default. I just do not like it when companies try to nickle-and-dime you for every little thing like that. I cannot imagine that charging extra is necessary for the model to work, but I think that most in this space are probably just guessing and hoping for the best anyway, so who knows...
  • #16,760
  • Jun 18, 2023 12:57pm Jun 18, 2023 12:57pm
Quoting Takisd
no man, if i had the answer i would be super rich, but i know there are answers out there. Likely some sort of behavioral system that is used to generate revenue off data.
-I suppose, since the firms are fronting a potentially large amount of capital, then maybe there is no way to sustain it over the long-term without perpetual growth, or, without putting limits in place that are based on a floating pool that gets funded by failed challenges. But you're exposing yourself to more regulatory scrutiny at that point.
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