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Liquidity and Structure

Quoting aboulhasan.s
If price made a CHOCH on 1.17067 price, it is more likely (in my opinion) to resume its downtrend.
Gold already did, But not GU, i think the market confidence in this current govt prevents cable to fall hard!
Just my view, could be wrong.
Today PMI and 4hr candle are bearish, can see some volatility
Trade at good levels or no trade at all!
I really appreciate everyone posted their opinions and view
and i serious mean it , thank everyone
Training.
Quoting Fardeen1209
{quote} Gold already did, But not GU, i think the market confidence in this current govt prevents cable to fall hard! Just my view, could be wrong. Today PMI and 4hr candle are bearish, can see some volatility
GU seem sideway.
For now i closed my short and waiting PMI.
i did mistake there, greedy and didnt close some order and holding full risk , when it surge to 1900 and keep bouncing from 1870 so i closed all at 1880
Training.
Quoting LeongPuiy
{quote} GU seem sideway. For now i closed my short and waiting PMI. i did mistake there, greedy and didnt close some order and holding full risk , when it surge to 1900 and keep bouncing from 1870 so i closed all at 1880
Managing floating position (open position) is the hardest one in trading and few talk about it.
It will never be a smooth journey and the moment it involved emotion, you tend to make mistakes
Trade at good levels or no trade at all!
Quoting Fardeen1209
{quote} Managing floating position (open position) is the hardest one in trading and few talk about it. It will never be a smooth journey and the moment it involved emotion, you tend to make mistakes
Yes , specially ranging market
i get emotion and closed it.
this is my view for GU.
maybe there will be another drop later
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Training.
Quoting Fardeen1209
{quote} You see nothing works perfectly. Everyone are discussing their point about what work the best for them, which does not mean they should work for you. Or what work for you does not mean it should worked for them. Technical analysis is subjective, a support can be strong and hold for a reversal yet you will see some mf short from there because their systems say them to do. Then after 30 mins they moan, because the stop loss hit. To win in this industry you need a high probability winning strategy which gives consistant win and keep your loss...
I agree with most of what you say. Not the only one way to trade (some people seem to prefer "predicting" [a mere guess] where the price could go, to then try "riding" the "move" towards a possible near-proximate "level/line", gambling with timing and "direction" [an "informed" bet "based on probabilities", as some like to call it], from observable/repeatable price "patterns" [behaviors] around certain areas), but I also think that "reacting" with sensible risk/money management is the proper approach to see/do it.

BTW, using volume & liquidity, order flow, etc, also involves variable interpretation, guessing and reaction. Although these yes are in fact more informed based decisions (I'm not stating that necessarily better/more effective in every case).

* yeah, my "quotation marks" are always for a reason...

And about that's what I meant with the concept "psychology" here:
https://www.forexfactory.com/thread/...7#post14231297
... as well related to how everyone personally handles their manual trades or "algo" utilization.

Also, @sharingan9 was the member bragging about 100% win-rates. Rick and Ryu do not claim such bullshit.

--- Cheers!
  • Post #67
  • Quote
  • Edited 11:50pm Nov 22, 2022 11:00pm | Edited 11:50pm
@LeongPuiy
Try to look for order flow on youtube it will be explained, the scene behind the candlestick formation, limit orders, market orders, and how buy-order(s) cancel sell-order or sell-order(s) cancel buy-order using futures market but it will make everything clearer and reduce confusion.
Hope that helps mate.

Since i am a scalper and intraday trader, I never hold my position overnight since the long exposure to the market risk gives me too much stress.
Whenever i am not sure about where the market might going, i always consult higher timeframe like 4hr or daily. All noise are eliminated and give me confidence to hold my position and i always use stop loss to avoid account being blown up
Trade at good levels or no trade at all!
Quoting Fardeen1209
@LeongPuiy Try to look for order flow on youtube it will be explained, the scene behind the candlestick formation, limit orders, market orders, and how buy-order(s) cancel sell-order or sell-order(s) cancel buy-order using futures market but it will make everything clearer and reduce confusion. Hope that helps mate. Since i am a scalper and intraday trader, I never hold my position overnight since the long exposure to the market risk gives me too much stress. Whenever i am not sure about where the market might going, i always consult higher timeframe...
I always let emotions control me.
or greed.
when I involve a good move but closed it , then it went more and more, i felt i lose the chance.
or i holding too long then it went back to hit my BE or stop ,
i struggle it.
but when i stick to SL and TP , and do less trade, my account actually grow , but after that i felt overconfident then i gv back what i make.
Training.
  •  dantpm
  • Joined Aug 2022 | Status: Stubborn, slow but still learning! | 1,586 Posts | Online Now
Quoting LeongPuiy
{quote} I always let emotions control me. or greed. when I involve a good move but closed it , then it went more and more, i felt i lose the chance. or i holding too long then it went back to hit my BE or stop , i struggle it. but when i stick to SL and TP , and do less trade, my account actually grow , but after that i felt overconfident then i gv back what i make.
So what you and I both need is a better strategy for picking entrances and exits!
Stubborn, often slow but still learning!
Quoting sharingan9
{quote} I'm not talking about skipped limit orders. I'm talking about limit orders that are executed. Are you saying market orders move price which then triggers a limit order and the triggering of that limit order moves price as well? If so we are in agreement. I am simply saying limit orders when triggered cause price to move as well. As it pertains to whether or not I should be trading that really has nothing to do with this academic discussion we are having but I trade value and I guarantee I trade more efficiently than you do. Calm your temperature...
It isn’t the limit order that moves the price. The limit order is static. It doesn’t move. As stated, it may or may not even get executed.

Try changing your “stop” loss on a trade to a “limit” order and you will see. If price moves quickly due to stop/market orders, the limit order can easily be skipped and never executed. So a skipped limit order that is not filled did not have any effect on price movement. Stop/market orders are always filled. Price will move as needed to fill those orders.

How can the “triggering of a limit order move price”? When that order is triggered, price triggered the order at said price. The price did not move by the order being triggered.

Placing a limit order without any guarantee that it will be executed is proof that limit orders do not and cannot move price. The market does not care about limit orders unless stop/market orders move price to your limit order. And even then, the market orders/stop orders that execute near or even at the same exact price as your your limit order will get executed first, so again, your limit order may never execute.

And I’m only trying to help here as a professional trader with 10+ years experience. But it is fine if you feel you don’t want or need it.
Quoting dantpm
{quote} So what you and I both need is a better strategy for picking entrances and exits!
Most my problem maybe is exit.
Due to FOMO ,worry close it then miss bigger move.
but sometime really happened to me.
Training.
Quoting LeongPuiy
{quote} I always let emotions control me. or greed. when I involve a good move but closed it , then it went more and more, i felt i lose the chance. or i holding too long then it went back to hit my BE or stop , i struggle it. but when i stick to SL and TP , and do less trade, my account actually grow , but after that i felt overconfident then i gv back what i make.
Treat profit as positive gains and lose as negative gains.
Lesson treat them both the same and always try to divide your gain for next 10 trades. It is working for me
Trade at good levels or no trade at all!
  • Post #73
  • Quote
  • Edited 2:37am Nov 23, 2022 2:21am | Edited 2:37am
Quoting sharingan9
{quote} Prove it. Please prove limit orders do not move the markets. Verifiable sources. I think I will trust the BIS over some random.
Limit order can stop the market. It can't move it. If big player place big limit order there will be impossible to fill it with market orders, because big player has 1234567$ limit order size, but yo have only 100$ and I have 100$ too. So we can literally eat 200$ from 1234567$. In this case the price will stop and will not move.

Also we must understand that limit orders are wishes.

Imagine I want to buy BTC at 10000$, and I place my limit order. You want to sell it at 20000$, and you placed your limit order too.
What will happen? Nothing. My limit order will still remain in the orderbook, and your order will remain too.
But when someone will hit buy then your order will be filled and removed from the orderbook, and only if the size of market order will be same or bigger than your limit order.

Only market orders move the price. Limit orders are like a warehouse. You can take some from the warehouse if you agree with the price.

Now let's check what stops are. Stops are also market orders. Always. Once triggeres they will search for limit orders to execute. But stops are hidden, you can't see it. Where are they came from? They are from positions. Every position has stop market order. In any case. In 100% cases any position has its market stop order. Even if you never place it you have it anyway. It called liquidation price. Every position have it (except 1x short on BTC due to math. 1X BTC short has no liquidation price ever).

If you check the orderbook it look like there are 333444555$ liquidity +1% ahead for example. Because you can calculate it. You see limit orders. But this is not the amount of liquidity. There are stops also. And they will remove that liquidity too. And there can be much more stops than limit orders ready to be executed. So if you think you can spend3 33444555$ go push the price +1% higher then you are wrong. You can spend less. Because successful trader's stops will do the job for you giving you free money.
Observer effect
  • Post #74
  • Quote
  • Edited 4:04am Nov 23, 2022 3:51am | Edited 4:04am
Quoting Fardeen1209
{quote} Gold already did, But not GU, i think the market confidence in this current govt prevents cable to fall hard! Just my view, could be wrong. Today PMI and 4hr candle are bearish, can see some volatility
EU did too my guess.
from 1h chart.


edit: btw, i did took short at 1334-1338 bfr the news n stop above the grey zone.
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Training.
  •  dantpm
  • Joined Aug 2022 | Status: Stubborn, slow but still learning! | 1,586 Posts | Online Now
Quoting Fardeen1209
{quote} Gold already did, But not GU, i think the market confidence in this current govt prevents cable to fall hard! Just my view, could be wrong. Today PMI and 4hr candle are bearish, can see some volatility
Or central bank interference in the market.
Stubborn, often slow but still learning!
Quoting Viktor
{quote} Limit orders get triggered by market orders and then everything is a market order. No need to say anything else than what has already been said. Ryu gave you the answer. Now, work your way through DOMs and T&S. It's not about "a pissing" contest (lame if you see it that way); it's about speaking the truth, talking about the right information... Case trading forums are full of shit and confusion. Congratulations for your 100% win-rate dude ;-D {quote} Thx for the guarantee. Is it certified?
Exactly thank you for proving my point. Limit orders get triggered by market orders and the triggering of these limit orders moves the market. Ryu stating "Limit order can't move the market." didnt make sense. In a way limit orders do move the market because when market orders trigger the limit orders, everything becomes a market order and moves the markets. So technically limit orders do still act as movers of the market when they are triggered. That was my point.

Yes you were attempting to turn this into a demeaning belittling convo on your part. Then you tried to turn this into a pissing contest when you stated "oh they make money" as if that entitles them to complete infallibility and blind faith lol. So if someone makes money that automatically means they are correct in your view lol.

Yes 100%. Thanks. All my set ups are exactly the same which is what I love about value. It sidesteps alot of this fluff and shows the true mover of the market is value.

Youre welcome for the guarantee and we can certify it. You know what else I can guarantee and certify? You try too hard to be funny and it just never lands. Cringe jokes man. It sounds like you took a joke from another language and ran it through google translate. They just dont hit lol. Thanks for the info though. Wish you green pips brother.
Quoting sharingan9
Ryu stating "Limit order can't move the market." didnt make sense.


Quoting sharingan9
In a way limit orders do move the market because when market orders trigger the limit orders, everything becomes a market order and moves the markets.


ookay...
on the other hand, if a person has drawn a line and believes that there is liquidity or some level, then why not. Or you can, for example, measure tire pressure with a ruler, or distance in kilograms. The main thing is to do it with a serious face.
Observer effect
Quoting ryuryu
{quote} Limit order can stop the market. It can't move it. If big player place big limit order there will be impossible to fill it with market orders, because big player has 1234567$ limit order size, but yo have only 100$ and I have 100$ too. So we can literally eat 200$ from 1234567$. In this case the price will stop and will not move. Also we must understand that limit orders are wishes. Imagine I want to buy BTC at 10000$, and I place my limit order. You want to sell it at 20000$, and you placed your limit order too. What will happen? Nothing....
Thanks but do you have any proof of this. Can you show me any live videos of orders being processed in real time? thanks in advance
Quoting ryuryu
{quote} {quote} ookay... on the other hand, if a person has drawn a line and believes that there is liquidity or some level, then why not. Or you can, for example, measure tire pressure with a ruler, or distance in kilograms. The main thing is to do it with a serious face.
I read your last example and it makes more sense to me now. Your saying the sell limit orders can act as a resistance to stop price and wont be filled until market orders equal or exceed the limit order.

However do you have any videos of this happening? Any live orderflow feeds that you can show us. Because at this point all of this seems rather theoretical respectfully. Thanks
Quoting sharingan9
{quote} I read your last example and it makes more sense to me now. Your saying the sell limit orders can act as a resistance to stop price and wont be filled until market orders equal or exceed the limit order. However do you have any videos of this happening? Any live orderflow feeds that you can show us. Because at this point all of this seems rather theoretical respectfully. Thanks
I have no videos, it happening every day million times a day. You can open binance or even better bitfinex and check the orderbook and the orderflow data.

Limit orders can't move the market. They can stop it. Market orders move the market, and stops moving it too. And the wide movements occur when there are no liquidity and a lot of stops. And stops are market orders.

In fact you can move the market using limit orders. You can place the wall and then remove it. Then market orders will remove all thin liquidity and the price will move. But you need to pull the trigger anyway: use market orders. Same way you can put your wall and the price will stop moving. But this is like to say that brakes moves the car. Yes your car start to move if you release your brakes heh but it will not move if it the engine is off.
But anyway no market orders = no moves. And it doesn't matter how many limit orders around, do you have walls or you remove em and so on. Market orders rule the market.
Observer effect
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