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Liquidity and Structure

  • #41
  • Edited 2:36pm Nov 22, 2022 2:25pm | Edited 2:36pm
Quoting sharingan9
{quote} Ok respectfully I will just show you documentation showing that what I said was correct so I can make it clear for any readers. I stated that Liquidity can be indicated by the volume of trades since volume and liquidity are correlated though they are not he same thing. Here is proof: {image}{image}{image} {image}{image}{image} Also as I mentioned trades that have been executed serve as an indication of liquidity(but volume is not liquidity). Volume of trades pending(limit orders)at bid and ask prices serve as liquidity. Limit orders are...
Hi Sharingan9

Can you do me a favour, delete that shit off your computer because it is totally bullshit.

Now, print Ryuryu's post and mount in on to your wall. Every single time before you start trading, I ask you to read his words tell they are fixed in your brain.

Only Executed Market orders move the market, liquidity is just a wish list and 50% faked.
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
  • #42
  • Nov 22, 2022 3:18pm Nov 22, 2022 3:18pm
Quoting RickM
{quote} Hi Sharingan9 Can you do me a favour, delete that shit off your computer because it is totally bullshit. Now, print Ryuryu's post and mount in on to your wall. Every single time before you start trading, I ask you to read his words tell they are fixed in your brain. Only Executed Market orders move the market, liquidity is just a wish list and 50% faked.
Prove it. Please prove limit orders do not move the markets. Verifiable sources. I think I will trust the BIS over some random.
  • #43
  • Edited 9:43pm Nov 22, 2022 3:35pm | Edited 9:43pm
Quoting ryuryu
{quote} I think there are no psychology under that. It is money. Try to look at this all at another angel. You have 12 mil$, and you want to have some profit. What would you do? And you know that there will be "red news" thing. So what? Why price moves so hard? Because 90% traders are off. They are not playing. They afraid red news. That's why the movements are so wide. Because there are no liquidity on the market at the moment. So it is much easier for you, the big player to push the price to the desired level. Why? Because it is cheap. You have...
By "psychology", I understand that every move/action has an intent/objective behind; being human or algorithmic (coded by humans, with a purpose anyway), based on rules/conditions and parameters/limitations.

Quoting RickM
{quote} Hi Sharingan9 Can you do me a favour, delete that shit off your computer because it is totally bullshit. Now, print Ryuryu's post and mount in on to your wall. Every single time before you start trading, I ask you to read his words tell they are fixed in your brain. Only Executed Market orders move the market, liquidity is just a wish list and 50% faked.
Some of that info is right, but he doesn't understand all of it correctly. This is an example of how easily people misinterpret words and/or data...

Quoting sharingan9
{quote} Prove it. Please prove limit orders do not move the markets. Verifiable sources. I think I will trust the BIS over some random.
Market mechanics 1-0-1. It's simply basic understanding when you SEE (with the proper tools/software) how the markets work.
And well, Rick and Ryan work with that, actually making some money...

---

EDIT: I'm high AF rn, so I didn't noticed the repetition, and now I changed the word "correct" to "right", because I have OCD=
  • #44
  • Nov 22, 2022 3:36pm Nov 22, 2022 3:36pm
Quoting sharingan9
{quote} I'm not sure what you mean by this. Market orders once executed can move the markets if they cause a supply and demand imbalance. Limit orders once executed can move the markets if they cause a supply and demand imbalance. If there is a large limit order placed capable of moving the markets once triggered, when it gets triggered it can move the markets. Liquidity can be indicated by the volume of trades since volume and liquidity are correlated though they are not he same thing. Volume of trades pending(limit orders)at bid and ask prices...
If by “limit order”, you mean “stop limit”, then right. Otherwise no.

What moves the market is unfilled orders. But not limit orders. Because if a limit order is skipped due to fast moving market it does nothing and just sits there.

however if a stop order or market order get executed it will trigger the nearest order. If there is a limit order that the stop order triggers, it does not mean the limit order moved price. The stop order moved price because again, a limit order never moves. It stays where it is until a stop order finds it.

So this is the whole point of supply and demand for example, if more buy orders hit the market than existing matching sell orders, price goes up to find matching sell orders.

edit: btw, this why your SL should always be a stop order. If you don’t understand why, you should probably not be trading until you do.
  • #45
  • Nov 22, 2022 3:41pm Nov 22, 2022 3:41pm
Quoting sharingan9
{quote} Prove it. Please prove limit orders do not move the markets. Verifiable sources. I think I will trust the BIS over some random.
Have you ever traded a DOM, seen the orders coming in on the order books one second before execution.

NO, I bet you just read trading books and material written by non traders.

Please, do your self a favour and watch what happens seconds before the next market orders is executed - you may just have a light bulb moment.

90% of traders lose because they read false material by people who have never traded liquidity.
Ryuryu and myself spend hours a day watching executed market orders control the market and see what REALLY happens. You on the other hand just read rubbish from non order flow traders who make up stories to please the big side of town.

Question for you. What happens to bullish liquidity 0.5 seconds before the next Selling market order is executed?.
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
  • #46
  • Nov 22, 2022 3:59pm Nov 22, 2022 3:59pm
Quoting Viktor
{quote} By "psychology", I understand that every move/action has an intent/objective behind; being human or algorithmic (coded by humans, with a purpose anyway), based on rules/conditions and parameters/limitations. {quote} Some of that info is correct, but he doesn't understand all of it correctly. This is an example of how easily people misinterpret words and/or data... {quote} Market mechanics 1-0-1. It's simply basic understanding when you SEE (with the proper tools/software) how the markets work. And well, Rick and Ryan work with that, actually...
Please educate me on what I've misinterpreted as the information is pretty clear. What I am saying is limit orders that are executed move the market. If cashflow is injected into the market via executed limit order and causes a supply/demand imbalance the market will move. What am I missing. Please explain.

This is purely an academic discussion for me. Always willing to learn more and challenge my trading ethos and dogma. I trade value, so I could care less about volume or price for that matter.

However if you want to make this into a pissing contest I am more interested in their stats than the fact that they make 'some" money. Let's see some statements because I rarely lose and have shown 100% winrate statements on here. I don't really see people do that on this forum.
  • #47
  • Nov 22, 2022 4:06pm Nov 22, 2022 4:06pm
Quoting benaiah
{quote} If by “limit order”, you mean “stop limit”, then right. Otherwise no. What moves the market is unfilled orders. But not limit orders. Because if a limit order is skipped due to fast moving market it does nothing and just sits there. however if a stop order or market order get executed it will trigger the nearest order. If there is a limit order that the stop order triggers, it does not mean the limit order moved price. The stop order moved price because again, a limit order never moves. It stays where it is until a stop order finds it. So...
I'm not talking about skipped limit orders. I'm talking about limit orders that are executed. Are you saying market orders move price which then triggers a limit order and the triggering of that limit order moves price as well? If so we are in agreement. I am simply saying limit orders when triggered cause price to move as well.

As it pertains to whether or not I should be trading that really has nothing to do with this academic discussion we are having but I trade value and I guarantee I trade more efficiently than you do. Calm your temperature down and let's not turn this into a lecturing/pissing contest. Tis merely an exchange of ideas.
  • #48
  • Nov 22, 2022 4:13pm Nov 22, 2022 4:13pm
Quoting RickM
{quote} Have you ever traded a DOM, seen the orders coming in on the order books one second before execution. NO, I bet you just read trading books and material written by non traders. Please, do your self a favour and watch what happens seconds before the next market orders is executed - you may just have a light bulb moment. 90% of traders lose because they read false material by people who have never traded liquidity. Ryuryu and myself spend hours a day watching executed market orders control the market and see what REALLY happens. You on the...
Lol. What is it with these egos on here. It went from a simple discussion to ad hominem and ego trip lol. It amazes me the egos on some of you who would patronize me but when I see your trading stats I'm never impressed. I care not for what DOM uve seen. I'm simply trying to come to an understanding but you want to do the whole pretentious act. Stop being a lil emotional snobby trading princess because i doubt your stats leave much to be desired.

Anyway back to the discussion where I am simply trying to come to an understanding. I am not arguing that market orders do not move the markets. They do. Answer me this. Am I correct in saying that when a market order is executed and moves the market which triggers a limit order, that executed limit order also moves the markets?
  • #49
  • Nov 22, 2022 4:15pm Nov 22, 2022 4:15pm
Quoting sharingan9
{quote} Please educate me on what I've misinterpreted as the information is pretty clear. What I am saying is limit orders that are executed move the market. If cashflow is injected into the market via executed limit order and causes a supply/demand imbalance the market will move. What am I missing. Please explain. This is purely an academic discussion for me. Always willing to learn more and challenge my trading ethos and dogma. I trade value, so I could care less about volume or price for that matter. However if you want to make this into a pissing...
No one is saying here anyone is winning 100% of there trades, put your head in.

Limit orders are passive, they do nothing till an aggressive market order makes a action.


Answer my question to you I just asked - what happens on the order book 0.5 seconds before the next trade is executed.
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
  • #50
  • Nov 22, 2022 4:16pm Nov 22, 2022 4:16pm
Quoting RickM
{quote} Have you ever traded a DOM, seen the orders coming in on the order books one second before execution. NO, I bet you just read trading books and material written by non traders. Please, do your self a favour and watch what happens seconds before the next market orders is executed - you may just have a light bulb moment. 90% of traders lose because they read false material by people who have never traded liquidity. Ryuryu and myself spend hours a day watching executed market orders control the market and see what REALLY happens. You on the...
the bullish equity gets filled by a market maker. I dont know enlighten me.
  • #51
  • Nov 22, 2022 4:18pm Nov 22, 2022 4:18pm
Quoting RickM
{quote} Limit orders are passive, they do nothing till an aggressive market order makes a action..
I never disagreed with this. My question is when the market order triggers the limit order, does the limit order not also CONTRIBUTE to the movement of price if it causes a supply and demand imbalance??
  • #52
  • Nov 22, 2022 4:33pm Nov 22, 2022 4:33pm
Quoting sharingan9
{quote} the bullish equity gets filled by a market maker. I dont know enlighten me.
Hi Sharingan

We are on the same team so let’s work together otherwise we have no chance.

On the markets, there is Algo’s trading on each side of the spread relocating liquidity to achieve the designers goals.

50% of Selling resting orders are removed from the market on a bullish move 0.5 seconds before possible execution and 50% of bullish resting orders on a bullish move are placed above price 0.5 seconds before possible execution.
That’s half of all liquidity within reach of current spread that was not on a chart 1 second away from current price.

My point is most limit orders that have just been executed by aggressive market orders never existed 1 second earlier in that exact spot, but has been moved perhaps hundreds of times to create an Illusion that massive billion dollar liquidity exists when it doesn’t.
90% of daily liquidity is actually not on a chart but in some bank account doing other things - but it’s not on a chart.

The only fact we have is a market order has just occurred so there was enough liquidity to close an auction.

If I can make a suggestion, study the difference between closed Auctions and imcomplete Auctions and see what effect they have on the markets.
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
  • #53
  • Nov 22, 2022 5:39pm Nov 22, 2022 5:39pm
If price made a CHOCH on 1.17067 price, it is more likely (in my opinion) to resume its downtrend.
  • #54
  • Nov 22, 2022 6:42pm Nov 22, 2022 6:42pm
Quoting benaiah
{quote} If by “limit order”, you mean “stop limit”, then right. Otherwise no. What moves the market is unfilled orders. But not limit orders. Because if a limit order is skipped due to fast moving market it does nothing and just sits there. however if a stop order or market order get executed it will trigger the nearest order. If there is a limit order that the stop order triggers, it does not mean the limit order moved price. The stop order moved price because again, a limit order never moves. It stays where it is until a stop order finds it. So...
Sir, you sound very confused. Sorry, but seems you don't know what the heck you're talking about

Quoting sharingan9
{quote} Please educate me on what I've misinterpreted as the information is pretty clear. What I am saying is limit orders that are executed move the market. If cashflow is injected into the market via executed limit order and causes a supply/demand imbalance the market will move. What am I missing. Please explain. This is purely an academic discussion for me. Always willing to learn more and challenge my trading ethos and dogma. I trade value, so I could care less about volume or price for that matter. However if you want to make this into a pissing...
Limit orders get triggered by market orders and then everything is a market order. No need to say anything else than what has already been said. Ryu gave you the answer. Now, work your way through DOMs and T&S. It's not about "a pissing" contest (lame if you see it that way); it's about speaking the truth, talking about the right information... Case trading forums are full of shit and confusion.

Congratulations for your 100% win-rate dude ;-D

Quoting sharingan9
{quote} I'm not talking about skipped limit orders. I'm talking about limit orders that are executed. Are you saying market orders move price which then triggers a limit order and the triggering of that limit order moves price as well? If so we are in agreement. I am simply saying limit orders when triggered cause price to move as well. As it pertains to whether or not I should be trading that really has nothing to do with this academic discussion we are having but I trade value and I guarantee I trade more efficiently than you do. Calm your temperature...
Thx for the guarantee. Is it certified?
  • #55
  • Nov 22, 2022 6:56pm Nov 22, 2022 6:56pm
I have read all the post.
sry for asking this.
what should i start looking for?
i am little confuse and not sure what should or where should i start.
my trading was all start from MA / indicator then SMC, but from the comment, all seem BS.
Personally i always float with big green but then i try to be swing trader and hold sometime, but end up Be or get stop out after big float green.
So i trying to figure and willing to listen other to change my bad habit.
PA Return Today: na
  • #56
  • Nov 22, 2022 7:20pm Nov 22, 2022 7:20pm
watching level
Attached Image
ITB - Seeing Orderliness amongst 'Randomness'
  • #57
  • Edited 9:28pm Nov 22, 2022 8:14pm | Edited 9:28pm
Quoting LeongPuiy
I have read all the post. sry for asking this. what should i start looking for? i am little confuse and not sure what should or where should i start. my trading was all start from MA / indicator then SMC, but from the comment, all seem BS. Personally i always float with big green but then i try to be swing trader and hold sometime, but end up Be or get stop out after big float green. So i trying to figure and willing to listen other to change my bad habit.
You see nothing works perfectly. Everyone are discussing their point about what work the best for them, which does not mean they should work for you. Or what work for you does not mean it should worked for them.
Technical analysis is subjective, a support can be strong and hold for a reversal yet you will see some mf short from there because their systems say them to do. Then after 30 mins they moan, because the stop loss hit.

To win in this industry you need a high probability winning strategy which gives consistant win and keep your loss tight to keep you longer in the play. Whatever they are telling you, ignore them, since they are talking as if their system is a 100% win probability. If they say so, then where the heck is their hedge fund?
When you think from that perspective, you will see majority of retailer traders are BS, thats why they lose constantly and from that you can cut noises
Everything here is about psychology, and it is. Trying to study price no one can but human psychology can be.

This is why fx is reactive rather than predictive. And to be reactive you at least need a level on the chart to which the candlestick formation say it will reverse or breakout. Then you trade accordingly.
If you think otherwise, then tell me why the market react to an order block? Is it just because of the price action formation or every trader around the world saw that OB and try to short from there?

The PA, support and resistance, support becoming resistance, resistance becoming support, imbalance to be used as support or resistance, an imbalance below a support or above a resistance may render the support or resistance weak, and it might not hold because the imbalance needs to be filled are all subjective. Yet it worked majority of the time but not all the time

It does not consider a 100% lose probability, it is considered as a risky trade, low probability win rate. Because if you put in a sense, every trade is 50/50(that is why you always try to test the water with your feet first before you swim) but the moment you saw some price movement build in your favour, the chance for your TP to hit increases. Thats when you add more positions to build in favour to this direction
More time in the market, does not mean you trade better!
  • #58
  • Nov 22, 2022 8:17pm Nov 22, 2022 8:17pm
Quoting Inthebox
watching level {image}

YES!

Watching BRN 119000 today and tomorrow

FTSE is bullish!

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: GU Nov23 minised the lagging Stoc and TDI 23-11-2022 10-01-08 am.png Size: 38 KB



...
Honesty is a very expensive gift. You wont find it in cheap people.WBuffett
  • #59
  • Nov 22, 2022 8:21pm Nov 22, 2022 8:21pm
Quoting LeongPuiy
I have read all the post. sry for asking this. what should i start looking for? i am little confuse and not sure what should or where should i start. my trading was all start from MA / indicator then SMC, but from the comment, all seem BS. Personally i always float with big green but then i try to be swing trader and hold sometime, but end up Be or get stop out after big float green. So i trying to figure and willing to listen other to change my bad habit.
I try to use smc to understand the market structure but Support resistance flip (SRF) or Resistance Support flip (RSF) (looked on 4hr, and daily timeframe) [which i denoted by RSF only- since both mean the same thing] and wait price come there to see how it reacted. Then trade accordingly. Every thing is simpler when there is no BS
More time in the market, does not mean you trade better!
  • #60
  • Nov 22, 2022 8:29pm Nov 22, 2022 8:29pm
Quoting LeongPuiy
Personally i always float with big green but then i try to be swing trader and hold sometime, but end up Be or get stop out after big float green. So i trying to figure and willing to listen other to change my bad habit.
there is no one size fits all solutions. all custom made.
absorb what suits your personality and discard the rests.
you have to know what kind of trader you are. only you yourself can answer that, nobody else.
the mentality of a swing trader is different from a scalper.

swing trader will have lots of BE and small losses trades while waiting for the runner.
scalper will consider that the longer you stay in the market the more risky it becomes.
hybrid would take partial profit along the way and wait for runner.
ITB - Seeing Orderliness amongst 'Randomness'
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