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  • #11,481
  • Oct 11, 2022 5:28am Oct 11, 2022 5:28am
Quoting Erebus
{quote} Not sure what that means, can you explain in depth? And again, what are your recommendations please?
I have no time for in-depth explanations. You can read it on their website.

Basically, it is designed to move the drawdown hurdle ever up, it encourages traders to keep their withdrawals to a minimum but what it actually does is biding the time without withdrawal until the account is busted.
I have no "no time limit" prop firm recommendations at this moment. If you want to get paid, stick to the few biggest and most researched ones. All of them have a similar offering.
  • #11,482
  • Oct 11, 2022 6:45am Oct 11, 2022 6:45am
Quoting Erebus
{quote} Easier said than done, what are your recommendations please? {image}
Hi.
Yes, the one you circled is the only one worth considering.
  • #11,483
  • Oct 11, 2022 7:47am Oct 11, 2022 7:47am
Quoting LehmanBrotha
{quote} I have no time for in-depth explanations. You can read it on their website. Basically, it is designed to move the drawdown hurdle ever up, it encourages traders to keep their withdrawals to a minimum but what it actually does is biding the time without withdrawal until the account is busted.
The trailing (relative) drawdown is actually not bad because it doesn't trail infinitely. As soon as you reach 10% profit it stops and the additional profit you make adds to the drawdown buffer. They also measure the DD from the balance, not equity as most others do.
When you know how it works you can basically scale up your small account very quickly (much faster than with any other prop firm) without scaling up the account balance itself, as the DD is what matters. You can still make withdrawals along the way, you just need to always balance between how big DD buffer you want to keep vs. how much you want to withdraw.

I actually quite like this model. To me it seems much closer to how traders should think about trading. The model basically "forces" you to think more about what you do and how.

Anyone here funded with them (Funded Trading Plus)?
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #11,484
  • Oct 11, 2022 10:45am Oct 11, 2022 10:45am
Quoting Vitore
As soon as you reach 10% profit it stops and the additional profit you make adds to the drawdown buffer.
-I know that I sound like a shill at this point, but Traders With Edge has a no daily draw-down option and a fixed/static max draw-down. I think that this can be very beneficial since most traders likely lose their accounts by violating the daily (although, they shouldn't), which gets reset everyday, regardless of how much profit you accumulate on the account.
  • #11,485
  • Oct 11, 2022 11:02am Oct 11, 2022 11:02am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-I know that I sound like a shill at this point, but Traders With Edge has a no daily draw-down option and a fixed/static max draw-down. I think that this can be very beneficial since most traders likely lose their accounts by violating the daily (although, they shouldn't), which gets reset everyday, regardless of how much profit you accumulate on the account.
I agree and I was reviewing them too but as soon as I found their consistency rule (they call it "no manipulation rule") I lost interest. FT+ can also remove the daily DD upon request after you reach 10% and then you basically trade against one fixed drawdown limit too. But it's great we have all these new options to review and chose from
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #11,486
  • Oct 11, 2022 11:12am Oct 11, 2022 11:12am
Quoting Vitore
I agree and I was reviewing them too but as soon as I found their consistency rule (they call it "no manipulation rule") I lost interest.
-But that only applies to challenges, a similar rule that many firms have, to prevent traders from passing with one, lucky trade and then using micro-trades to finish out the challenge. This is assuming that I am understanding the rule correctly, anyway. I could be wrong.

Quoting Vitore
But it's great we have all these new options to review and chose from
-I agree.
  • #11,487
  • Oct 11, 2022 11:20am Oct 11, 2022 11:20am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-But that only applies to challenges
I see, you were referring to their instant mode. I wasn't even considering this one but it seems worth looking at it. Thanks for bringing it up!
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #11,488
  • Oct 11, 2022 11:24am Oct 11, 2022 11:24am
Quoting Vitore
I see, you were referring to their instant mode.
-Not sure what you're referring to. I usually don't even look at direct funding models.

They also claim to connect traders with large investors if they can show consistency for two years trading with them. Supposedly, you can get access to $30+ Million accounts. I doubt many would qualify, though.

EDIT: I think I see what you meant. When I say that it only applies to challenges, I mean, the actual challenge phases, not challenge model. Once you are funded, the consistency rule should not apply, regardless of what model that you are on (I think).
  • #11,489
  • Oct 11, 2022 11:30am Oct 11, 2022 11:30am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Not sure what you're referring to. I usually don't even look at direct funding models. They also claim to connect traders with large investors if they can show consistency for two years trading with them. Supposedly, you can get access to $30+ Million accounts. I doubt many would qualify, though. EDIT: I think I see what you meant. When I say that it only applies to challenges, I mean, the actual challenge phases, not challenge model. Once you are funded, the consistency rule should not apply.
hmm ok never mind, maybe I need a break from my monitor today
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #11,490
  • Oct 11, 2022 11:34am Oct 11, 2022 11:34am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}a similar rule that many firms have, to prevent traders from passing with one, lucky trade and then using micro-trades to finish out the challenge. This is assuming that I am understanding the rule correctly, anyway. I could be wrong. {quote}-I agree.
I guess this one is a little different - it's the last bullet in the description called "Lot size manipulation". They want you to keep the lot size of each trade within a certain range of the previous week's average, otherwise your account is terminated. Not many have such a rule in place on challenge accounts (some do have it on instant)
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #11,491
  • Oct 11, 2022 11:35am Oct 11, 2022 11:35am
Quoting Vitore
hmm ok never mind, maybe I need a break from my monitor today
-Or maybe you are getting old like me. I already accepted it.
  • #11,492
  • Oct 11, 2022 11:37am Oct 11, 2022 11:37am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Or maybe you are getting old like me. I already accepted it.
I keep denying it
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #11,493
  • Oct 11, 2022 11:38am Oct 11, 2022 11:38am
Quoting Vitore
I guess this one is a little different - it's the last bullet in the description called "Lot size manipulation". They want you to keep the lot size of each trade within a certain range of the previous week's average, otherwise your account is terminated. Not many have such a rule in place on challenge accounts (some do have it on instant)
-I am not seeing that. Can you post a link or something?
  • #11,494
  • Oct 11, 2022 11:43am Oct 11, 2022 11:43am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-I am not seeing that. Can you post a link or something?
https://traderswithedge.com/challenges/

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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My understanding was this applies for funded account as well and all trades, not only for passing the challenge, but maybe I'm wrong
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #11,495
  • Oct 11, 2022 11:44am Oct 11, 2022 11:44am
Okay. That is what I see also. I do not see anything relating to funded accounts, only to challenge phases. I will ask, just to be sure, because if the consistency rule applies to funded accounts, then I will also lose interest completely.

Thank you for posting that.
  • #11,496
  • Oct 11, 2022 11:50am Oct 11, 2022 11:50am
Quoting Nsak3y
Okay. That is what I see also. I do not see anything relating to funded accounts, only to challenge phases. I will ask, just to be sure, because if the consistency rule applies to funded accounts, then I will also lose interest completely. Thank you for posting that.
Maybe you're right and I just misunderstood it. Please let us know here when you get the response. Thanks!
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #11,497
  • Oct 11, 2022 2:42pm Oct 11, 2022 2:42pm
Quoting LehmanBrotha
{quote} I have no time for in-depth explanations. You can read it on their website. Basically, it is designed to move the drawdown hurdle ever up, it encourages traders to keep their withdrawals to a minimum but what it actually does is biding the time without withdrawal until the account is busted. I have no "no time limit" prop firm recommendations at this moment. If you want to get paid, stick to the few biggest and most researched ones. All of them have a similar offering.
Thanks for the reply, I see it has generated many in-depth and informative posts.

They sure like to keep the rules complicated, that's for sure.

Meanwhile, my E8 demo has hit the daily drawdown limit, caused by that news spike, now all prices have returned to the same level.

Oh well, I will try again...
It takes a lot for me to IGNORE you, but you can try.
  • #11,498
  • Oct 11, 2022 4:53pm Oct 11, 2022 4:53pm
It is more tricky when you think about this. Of course most would say 100% per month is insane, but that is what most prop firms are us asking. But the path here is very narrow that a prop firm is worth to be considered. If you can do bit more than 100% per month then it might be better to just do own compounding on your own personal accounts, because you cannot compound gains on prop firm accounts. But let us make an example. MFF asks 120% for both phases in relation to DD. Then you have 10 days minimum before you can get your funded account. So all in all it takes bit more than 6 weeks or 1.5 months before you can get your first payout. Now let us assume you usually make one trade per day, but not always, you have 7 winners, 3 losers and 5 breakevens per month. RRR is 3:1 per trade. So you risk 2% per trade to gain 6%. On a $500 account which is 100k challenge at MFF you would need 2 winners. Then in 1 month after when funded you have 6 winners net, because 3 losers=1 winner (3*(-2%)=6%), so you made 36% profit, which means after profit split 27% net return (=$27k). Now you make this on your personal account but by risking 20% per trade. Because it takes 1.5 month to get a payout at MFF, you had 9 winners net, that makes 1.6^9 (for 60% return compounded) on $500 account = $34360. So anyone can see you can get more by own compounding on personal account then doing the prop thing at MFF because of the waiting times on first payout.
  • #11,499
  • Oct 11, 2022 5:05pm Oct 11, 2022 5:05pm
Quoting TrAndy1
So anyone can see you can get more by own compounding on personal account then doing the prop thing at MFF because of the waiting times on first payout.
-Do not forget that you get your refund on a prop account, so you would also need to account for that on your personal account.

That said, just because you can flip an account does not mean that you should. People that join props want to be able to make more by risking less (or they should, anyway). They can do this because of the draw-down allowance that is afforded to them. On a personal account, in order to match or exceed what you would gain on a prop account, you would need to risk a lot more, because although you are initially risking $500 on a prop account, you are actually getting 12K to work with.
  • #11,500
  • Oct 11, 2022 5:06pm Oct 11, 2022 5:06pm
Quoting TrAndy1
It is more tricky when you think about this. Of course most would say 100% per month is insane, but that is what most prop firms are us asking. But the path here is very narrow that a prop firm is worth to be considered. If you can do bit more than 100% per month then it might be better to just do own compounding on your own personal accounts, because you cannot compound gains on prop firm accounts. But let us make an example. MFF asks 120% for both phases in relation to DD. Then you have 10 days minimum before you can get your funded account. So...

On any prop firm, not just MFF, if it takes 30 or 90 or 120 days to get paid, regardless, you have far higher recovery factor if your first trade loses. On your own account a) you simply dont have the margin to do what you are saying and b) if your first 2 trades are losses you are in a position that you will never recover.

Making nonsense theories doesn't really achieve anything here. Margin is a very important part of trading, its not unlimited, like liquidity.

This forum is not filled with people compounding 500$ to 35k, if it were, there wouldn't be a prop firm thread.
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