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  • #11,361
  • Oct 8, 2022 1:32pm Oct 8, 2022 1:32pm
Quoting MuniFX
{quote} private account optimum 1. 200 invest risk 200 gain 200 2. 400 invest risk 400 gain 400 3. 800 invest risk 800 gain 800 4. 1600 invest risk 1600 gain 1600 5. 3200 invest risk 3200 gain 3200 6. 6400 invest risk 6400 gain 6400 7. 12800 invest risk 12800 gain 12800 8. 25600 invest risk 25600 gain 25600 9. 50k invest risk 50k gain 50k 10. 100k invest risk 100k gain ..(well maybe now you run out of luck) 11. ZERO $ prop 1. 2000 prop risk 200 gain 200 (200 in the bank) 2. 4000 prop risk still only the initial 200 gain 400 (600 in the bank) 3....
I absolutely 100% get the point, IF we are basing it on the assumption you will eventually lose, obviously something is better than nothing. I am going with the assumption you have a proven system and are not relying on luck and you have good risk management skills.
At any stage you can pull out what you wish from the personal account, as it is YOUR money. Now of course when doing so, one must compound back up to that level. However, by those later stages, risk should be reduced to a point where you would not blow up the entire account. If one is going to "run out of luck", it will occur much earlier.

Now, for the same money, you can get 6x value with the challenge model. $100 K challenge for $500 fee, standard challenge is 8% profit with 10% DD phase 1 and 5% with 10% phase 2. Personal account $500 becomes $1350 , funded account gives you 10K available loss with 80% split, so 8K, fee is refunded, you are now RISK FREE from the get go and have 6x what you would in a personal account.

If you are going to trade with a prop, why would you choose instant over challenge?
  • #11,362
  • Edited 1:59pm Oct 8, 2022 1:34pm | Edited 1:59pm
https://hivemarkets.io/funded-accounts/ (score is only 2.75)
  • #11,363
  • Oct 8, 2022 1:36pm Oct 8, 2022 1:36pm
Quoting Vitore
{quote} As far as I understand it, you have a mistake in your prop assumptions/calculations. On the 2000 prop account where you risk 200 you need to gain 400 (instead of only 200) in order to double your balance. From that 400 you usually get 50%, i.e. 200. If you apply the same gains to the own account you need to change the numbers to: risk 200, gain 400, put 200 to the bank, and continue with 400 in the next step. In this case, both scenarios grow with the same pace and lead to the exact same amount in the bank.
You are absolutely correct, I missed that. Nice catch. It is simply 100% of the time better to put that in a personal account. You can pull that "profit split" you would get from the firm from the personal account at the same time and personal account CRUSHES the instant funding.
  • #11,364
  • Oct 8, 2022 1:37pm Oct 8, 2022 1:37pm
Quoting Vitore
{quote} As far as I understand it, you have a mistake in your prop assumptions/calculations. On the 2000 prop account where you risk 200 you need to gain 400 (instead of only 200) in order to double your balance. From that 400 you usually get 50%, i.e. 200. If you apply the same gains to the own account you need to change the numbers to: risk 200, gain 400, put 200 to the bank, and continue with 400 in the next step. In this case, both scenarios grow with the same pace and lead to the exact same amount in the bank.
THANK YOU!

so:

private account optimum
1. 200 invest risk 200 gain 400 (200 in the bank)
2. 400 invest risk 400 gain 800 (600 in the bank)
3. 800 invest risk 800 gain 1600 (1400 in the bank)
4. 1600 invest risk 1600 gain 3200 (3k in the bank)
5. 3200 invest risk 3200 gain 6400 (6,2k)
6. 6400 invest risk 6400 gain 12800 (12,6k)
7. 12800 invest risk 12800 gain 25600 (25,4k)
8. 25600 invest risk 25600 gain 51200 (51k)
9. 50k invest risk 50k gain 100k (101k)
10. 100k invest risk 100k gain ..(well maybe now you run out of luck)
11. 101k $ in the bank ONLY IF YOU PAY YOURSELF 50%

prop
1. 2000 prop risk 200 gain 400 (200 in the bank)
2. 4000 prop risk still only the initial 200 gain 800 (600 in the bank)
3. 6000 prop risk 200 gain 1200 (1800 in the bank)
4. 12k prop risk 200 gain 2400 (3000 in the bank)
5. 18k prop risk 200 gain 3600 (4800 in the bank)
6. 32k prop risk 200 gain 6400 (8200 in the bank)
7. 54k prop risk 200 gain 10800 (13600 in the bank)
8. 108k prop risk 200 gain 21600 (24400 in the bank)
9. 162k prop risk 200 gain 32,4k (40600 in the bank)
10. 324k prop risk 200 gain 64,8k (73k in the bank)
11. 486k prop risk 200 gain ..(well maybe now you run out of luck)
12. ...
Muni loves you all!
  • #11,365
  • Oct 8, 2022 1:41pm Oct 8, 2022 1:41pm
Quoting TrAndy1
https://hivemarkets.io/funded-accounts/
They want 10% for phase one in 30 days and then another 10% for phase two in 30 days AND their prices aren't even competitive.

Thanks for posting.

Definitely another dud.
Pride always comes before destruction.... -Proverbs 16:18
  • #11,366
  • Oct 8, 2022 1:50pm Oct 8, 2022 1:50pm
Quoting MuniFX
So what is your prefered risk tolerance?
-Don't forget to give 50% of your profit away with prop.

Ultimately, the risk can be the same with each method, depending on your approach. And although you can scale up while still taking out profits with some direct funding models, you still have to be able to flip your account multiple times in a row in order to do that, which is not likely to get you very far. You also typically have access to better leverage on a personal account, as well as the ability to withdraw funds at any time.

The difference between prop and personal in terms of direct funding is typically the padding that you get with prop that allows you to make use of the entire balance before getting stopped out. But this can be done on an personal account simply by doubling your initial capital. And you can do that without risking more than you would with prop. It is the same amount of risk, you just need more to start with.

The argument that I make regarding direct funding is not so much against personal accounts, as the difference may be negligible, but my point is that when you compare it to other models, such as evaluation, the cost-benefit is incomparable.

I have always said that there is some benefit to the direct funding model, depending on your situation, but the model itself is not great, especially when there are much better options available.
  • #11,367
  • Oct 8, 2022 1:54pm Oct 8, 2022 1:54pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} Not paying yourself is like a major reason retailers fail at fx.
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} You can pull that "profit split" you would get from the firm from the personal account at the same time and personal account CRUSHES the instant funding.
!
Muni loves you all!
  • #11,368
  • Oct 8, 2022 1:56pm Oct 8, 2022 1:56pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} You hold my views on the instant funding. They serve a purpose because of the fact that people will eventually lose their account. With most of the instant fundings you get to scale AND get paid. Not paying yourself is like a major reason retailers fail at fx.
You make an excellent point sir. That is the problem with Evaluation model. People think it's easy but the numbers prove that it's not! In reality you have to jump over 3 big hurdles. Phase 1, Phase 2 and then make it through another month to getting paid something. Quite true that it's better to start with a small instant account and see some money coming in as soon as possible.

I cannot see how trading a personal account for $300 (the cost of a $5000 instant funding account) and then trying to double your account balance every time is easier then trading a $5000 account with 1:100 leverage and making 10% profit. Once you reach the milestone, you can withdraw more or less what you paid for fee and your account balance is doubled - then you're trading a $10000 account with no risk

It has been proven so many times that unless one starts in this business with at least a $5000 trading balance, you are wasting your time. You're going to blow your account every time. It's not me saying that. It's the proven statistics.

And if you don't have $5000 then the Prop trading route is all you've got.
  • #11,369
  • Oct 8, 2022 2:01pm Oct 8, 2022 2:01pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}The difference between prop and personal in terms of direct funding is typically the padding that you get with prop that allows you to make use of the entire balance before getting stopped out. But this can be done on an personal account simply by doubling your initial capital. And you can do that without risking more than you would with prop.
Double the initial capital to equalize the 50% Margin Call Level. Got it!
Thanks.
Muni loves you all!
  • #11,370
  • Oct 8, 2022 2:05pm Oct 8, 2022 2:05pm
Quoting Bizziebee
In reality you have to jump over 3 big hurdles. Phase 1, Phase 2 and then make it through another month to getting paid something.
-Traders With Edge has a 1-step challenge model. (FYI)

Quoting Bizziebee
I cannot see how trading a personal account for $300 (the cost of a $5000 instant funding account) and then trying to double your account balance every time is easier then trading a $5000 account with 1:100 leverage and making 10% profit.
-Don't forget, the account size with any prop is an illusion. It is the draw-down that matters. With direct funding models, the draw-down is typically equivalent to the buy-in.

How much do I get for my money?

With challenge models, you may have to work harder for it, but the benefit far exceeds that of a direct funding model.
  • #11,371
  • Oct 8, 2022 2:08pm Oct 8, 2022 2:08pm
https://www.fundingu.club/fundingu-challenge & https://www.fundingu.club/fundingu-freeprogram-apply
No one said one word about this prop firm. They have free challenge where one can make some money with ZERO invest for fee. Their score is 4.7 on 100k challenge.
  • #11,372
  • Oct 8, 2022 2:18pm Oct 8, 2022 2:18pm
Quoting TrAndy1
No one said one word about this prop firm.
-I took a quick look at it the other day, when you posted it. I thought that the website looked cheap, like it was thrown together quickly. The 100K challenge looks pretty basic; nothing new or exciting to talk about. I am not interested in any free competition-type challenges, so I did not even look at that.

I always appreciate you sharing your findings. I look at everything that people share here.
  • #11,373
  • Oct 8, 2022 2:28pm Oct 8, 2022 2:28pm
Score is only 2.2 for the 200k challenge. This is the prop firm (unheard here so far, just to mention it): https://www.globalfxtradinggroup.com/fx-traders-funding
  • #11,374
  • Oct 8, 2022 2:40pm Oct 8, 2022 2:40pm
Score is 3.2 for the 200k challenge here which is on par with FTMO. This is the prop firm: https://prosperity4x.com/funded-accounts/
  • #11,375
  • Oct 8, 2022 2:44pm Oct 8, 2022 2:44pm
Already mentioned this prop firm but score is between 8 and 9 for this instant funding offer. So one of the cheapest offers. Look here: https://trustsfxmarket.com/
  • #11,376
  • Oct 8, 2022 2:48pm Oct 8, 2022 2:48pm
Quoting Bizziebee
{quote} You make an excellent point sir. That is the problem with Evaluation model. People think it's easy but the numbers prove that it's not! In reality you have to jump over 3 big hurdles. Phase 1, Phase 2 and then make it through another month to getting paid something. Quite true that it's better to start with a small instant account and see some money coming in as soon as possible. I cannot see how trading a personal account for $300 (the cost of a $5000 instant funding account) and then trying to double your account balance every time is...
Because the 5000 account is really a 500 account. You cannot trade it like a 5000 account. For example, if you risk 2 % per trade normally on a personal account, are you going to risk 2% of the 5000 or the 500 in the prop. If you say 5000, then you are done in 2+ trades.
  • #11,377
  • Oct 8, 2022 2:50pm Oct 8, 2022 2:50pm
Quoting MuniFX
{quote} THANK YOU! so: private account optimum 1. 200 invest risk 200 gain 400 (200 in the bank) 2. 400 invest risk 400 gain 800 (600 in the bank) 3. 800 invest risk 800 gain 1600 (1400 in the bank) 4. 1600 invest risk 1600 gain 3200 (3k in the bank) 5. 3200 invest risk 3200 gain 6400 (6,2k) 6. 6400 invest risk 6400 gain 12800 (12,6k) 7. 12800 invest risk 12800 gain 25600 (25,4k) 8. 25600 invest risk 25600 gain 51200 (51k) 9. 50k invest risk 50k gain 100k (101k) 10. 100k invest risk 100k gain ..(well maybe now you run out of luck) 11. 101k $ in...
Yes, exactly. When you put 50% aside you get to even higher balance in the bank with your own account than with the prop as (MFF) does not double the account with every step, they alternate between 2x and 1.5x which makes their score <1 in result
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #11,378
  • Oct 8, 2022 2:50pm Oct 8, 2022 2:50pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Don't forget to give 50% of your profit away with prop. Ultimately, the risk can be the same with each method, depending on your approach. And although you can scale up while still taking out profits with some direct funding models, you still have to be able to flip your account multiple times in a row in order to do that, which is not likely to get you very far. You also typically have access to better leverage on a personal account, as well as the ability to withdraw funds at any time. The difference between prop and personal in terms...
Some people just REFUSE to see the simple math. Math is not an opinion, you CANNOT change math.
  • #11,379
  • Oct 8, 2022 2:55pm Oct 8, 2022 2:55pm
Quoting Vitore
{quote} Yes, exactly. When you put 50% aside you get to even higher balance in the bank with your own account than with the prop as (MFF) does not double the account with every step, they alternate between 2x and 1.5x which makes their score <1 in result
Some will argue this to the end despite the math staring them in the face.
Do this; sign up for a instant funding model and put the exact fee in a personal account. trade them side by side, exact risk % of available loss, which is 100% in personal and 10% in prop, withdrawal from personal exact amount every time you get a profit split from prop. In a year, come back and tell us which one made more money. Sometimes, you have to live it to believe it.
  • #11,380
  • Edited 3:26pm Oct 8, 2022 3:06pm | Edited 3:26pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Some people just REFUSE to see the simple math. Math is not an opinion, you CANNOT change math.
Well, sometimes there are just some blind spots, and luckily we CAN change these
Muni loves you all!
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