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  • #9,961
  • Aug 9, 2022 10:00am Aug 9, 2022 10:00am
Quoting madpips
{quote} I've been looking for this spreadsheet, could you post a link to it? Thanks in advance.
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  • #9,962
  • Aug 9, 2022 10:08am Aug 9, 2022 10:08am
Quoting madpips
{quote} It does "increase" because with higher leverage the account won't get locked up in used margin leaving little equity breathing room.
Your prop firm account will never be locked up because a typical drawdown is only 10% of account value.
So 1:100 leverage is actually 1:1000 leverage. That buying power is far more than enough.
  • #9,963
  • Aug 9, 2022 10:12am Aug 9, 2022 10:12am
Quoting madpips
{quote} It depends on the system.
Honestly, I'm not able to imagine a system which would be able to safely utilize leverage of 1:100 let alone the crazy 1:500. Even if it worked in theory, slippages, gaps, or just wider spreads would blow the account sooner or later. And managing a 1:500 leveraged position within the 5% of account equity? Like really...?
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #9,964
  • Aug 9, 2022 10:15am Aug 9, 2022 10:15am
Quoting madpips
{quote}With the daily 5% limit, I could reach the 10% target in 5 days or I could use less leverage and finish it in 20 days
You can make 10% in 1 day even with 1:10 leverage when you hit the right setup
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #9,965
  • Aug 9, 2022 10:16am Aug 9, 2022 10:16am
Quoting wmwmw
{quote} Your prop firm account will never be locked up because a typical drawdown is only 10% of account value. So 1:100 leverage is actually 1:1000 leverage. That buying power is far more than enough.
A perfect explanation
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #9,966
  • Aug 9, 2022 10:36am Aug 9, 2022 10:36am
Quoting pipmaster77
It's amazing, no matter how much you/we try to help, people refuse to listen.
-Sounds about right.

Quoting pipmaster77
I'm not familiar because I looked once and discredited immediately.
-And again.
  • #9,967
  • Edited 11:40am Aug 9, 2022 11:03am | Edited 11:40am
Quoting madpips
We all have to start somewhere.
-You mentioned something about high leverage and no profit targets as being important to you. Are these the deciding factors for you, then? Just trying to understand your reasoning.

When you look at what the Rapid program offers, you have to also look at what it does not offer, the limitations/restrictions imposed as well as how it compares to not only the other models, but also how it compares to trading your own account.

What value does it actually offer over other options? Because high leverage and no targets are not exclusive to the MFF Rapid program.

Hopefully, you do not feel discouraged by the criticisms. The people here are actually trying to help you. For whatever it's worth.
  • #9,968
  • Aug 9, 2022 11:25am Aug 9, 2022 11:25am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-You mentioned something about high leverage and no profit targets as being important to you. Are these the deciding factors for you, then? Just trying to understand your reasoning. When you look at what the Rapid program offers, you have to also look at what it does not offer, the limitations/restrictions imposed as well as how it compares to not only the other models, but also how it compares to trading your own account. What value does it actually offer over other options? Because high leverage and no targets is not exclusive to the MFF...
If it's not exclusive to MFF Rapid, which other prop firm does something similar?

If a program doesn't have target requirements, the trader still has their own daily target goal but it is nice to have the flexibility to close early or, not trade at all. For example, what if you get sick and can't trade to meet the target for that day? It is nice to have the freedom of no targets.

The deciding factor was that it's my first time trying out for a prop firm so I picked the most straight forward program. There were no mentions of Phase 1 Phase 2. It seemed more straightforward.
  • #9,969
  • Aug 9, 2022 12:08pm Aug 9, 2022 12:08pm
Quoting madpips
{quote} If it's not exclusive to MFF Rapid, which other prop firm does something similar? If a program doesn't have target requirements, the trader still has their own daily target goal but it is nice to have the flexibility to close early or, not trade at all. For example, what if you get sick and can't trade to meet the target for that day? It is nice to have the freedom of no targets. The deciding factor was that it's my first time trying out for a prop firm so I picked the most straight forward program. There were no mentions of Phase 1 Phase...
Yes, as Nasak3y stated, we are just trying to help. I understand you do not want the pressure of targets, however, what we are stating is these other models offer no value at all, actually it is diminishing value. Any score under 1 actually means you are LOSING money trading with said firm instead of your own personal account.
  • #9,970
  • Aug 9, 2022 1:02pm Aug 9, 2022 1:02pm
This discussion hurts my head..... people are going to do what they have already made up their minds to do, they will learn for themselves eventually.
  • #9,971
  • Aug 9, 2022 1:25pm Aug 9, 2022 1:25pm
Quoting madpips
The deciding factor was that it's my first time trying out for a prop firm so I picked the most straight forward program. There were no mentions of Phase 1 Phase 2. It seemed more straightforward.
-I have looked at many programs; most, probably. Personally, I do not believe that the Rapid program is the most straightforward program. Nonetheless, I would be curious to know why you believe that the Rapid program is better than trading your own account via Coinexx or some other offshore broker.
  • #9,972
  • Aug 9, 2022 5:07pm Aug 9, 2022 5:07pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-I have looked at many programs; most, probably. Personally, I do not believe that the Rapid program is the most straightforward program. Nonetheless, I would be curious to know why you believe that the Rapid program is better than trading your own account via Coinexx or some other offshore broker.
I have only looked at MFF. Within their programs (there are three), the Rapid program is the most straightforward since there are less requirements.
  • #9,973
  • Aug 9, 2022 5:11pm Aug 9, 2022 5:11pm
Quoting CableJ
This discussion hurts my head..... people are going to do what they have already made up their minds to do, they will learn for themselves eventually.
What is the thing to be learned? I'm not understanding what is detrimental by choosing Rapid over Evaluation. Please clarify.
  • #9,974
  • Aug 9, 2022 5:14pm Aug 9, 2022 5:14pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Yes, as Nasak3y stated, we are just trying to help. I understand you do not want the pressure of targets, however, what we are stating is these other models offer no value at all, actually it is diminishing value. Any score under 1 actually means you are LOSING money trading with said firm instead of your own personal account.
Once the challenge fee is recovered, I don't understand how I would be losing money. Please clarify. I would also eventually trade my own account but this is a good place to start. Assuming I survive the challenge.
  • #9,975
  • Aug 9, 2022 5:41pm Aug 9, 2022 5:41pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} {image}
Thanks for the spreadsheet. It's a good overview but each column would have a different weight for different traders since different things are important to different traders which would result in different scores altogether for each trader. For example, one trader might think a 0% Target 1 is more important than account size of Challenge.
  • #9,976
  • Aug 9, 2022 6:21pm Aug 9, 2022 6:21pm
I just noticed the fine print at MFF on using an EA. They require that you don't have more than 2 hedged positions and, you must give them your source code. I won't be using MFF or any prop firm for that matter because I assume they will all have similar rules about giving them your EA source code.
  • #9,977
  • Aug 9, 2022 6:22pm Aug 9, 2022 6:22pm
Quoting madpips
{quote} Thanks for the spreadsheet. It's a good overview but each column would have a different weight for different traders since different things are important to different traders which would result in different scores altogether for each trader. For example, one trader might think a 0% Target 1 is more important than account size of Challenge.
It's simple math. The scores are not opinions. They are mathematical formulas. The score is how much more you get in value vs. trading the fee in your own account. I'm going to be done with this conversation now, as Cable said earlier, it is making my head hurt. Obviously we are not being clear enough in our explanations. Doe the rapid and let us know how it goes.
  • #9,978
  • Aug 10, 2022 12:23am Aug 10, 2022 12:23am
So I've crunched some numbers for the 5ers Bootcamp challenge model.
TLDR it doesn't worth it.

So you have to pay only €85 and get a $1250 account that you have to flip at a rate of 1.2 (that's the 6% profit vs 5% dd ratio) 3 times at the end which you get nada.
OTOH if you put your €85 in your own account the same spiel will result you €187 (you make €102 + you keep your €85) at the end of round 1 and €905 at the end of round 3.

Now they ask for €215 to give you a $100k account ($4k in real terms) with a 50% profit split. You have to flip it at an increased rate of 1.25 and at the end you get 50% of the profits or $2500, minus the €300 which is non-refundable.

Parallel to that you can increase your own account of €905+€215 and at the end of level 1 you'll have €2520. Funny how these figures are so close, huh?

Going forward at the end of level 2 you'll have $5625 (-€300) with the 5ers or €5670 on your own. Level 3 $9375-€300 with 5ers vs €12758 on your own and then it goes parabolic: at the top level the 5ers will net you $901000-€300 vs €1087306165 on your own. That's not a typo, at level 17 you'd have 1 billion euro and the 5ers wouldn't give you even 1% of it. Maybe that's why they are so generous to offer 100% at the top levels.

Conclusion: you can use the 5ers as literally a bootcamp. It'll only cost €85 to start so that's not a huge risk. You are forced to keep within the dd rules and to always put a sl. If you are new, these forced actions to drill in you are already worth it. However, even at an intermediate level you are better off looking for a trusted broker that gives you better than 1:10 leverage (even regulated ones will give you 1:30 at minimum) and "bootcamp yourself". And if you use a broker with 1:100 leverage and know how to limit your own risk you'd definitely have a better chance to flip an account 120%.

To me, a major allure of these prop firms is that I'm not using my own money. But with the 5ers you definitely are using your own money and pay them heftily as well. I gotta give it to them though, I looked at them a couple of times and thought that it might make sense to use them as a 5th/6th alternative. But they don't offer any value to the trader, so to the sinkbin with 'em. The only program that was actually attractive after crunching the numbers was the freestyle account but they stopped it promptly, LMAO.
  • #9,979
  • Aug 10, 2022 1:49am Aug 10, 2022 1:49am
Quoting madpips
I just noticed the fine print at MFF on using an EA. They require that you don't have more than 2 hedged positions and, you must give them your source code. I won't be using MFF or any prop firm for that matter because I assume they will all have similar rules about giving them your EA source code.


They dont have the EA rule anymore.. ITs been gone for like 8 months. And the hedge position went even longer ago.
  • #9,980
  • Aug 10, 2022 1:56am Aug 10, 2022 1:56am
Quoting madpips
I have only looked at MFF. Within their programs (there are three), the Rapid program is the most straightforward since there are less requirements.
-You did not answer my question. Probably better to just do your own thing if you are not willing to accept any help that does not correlate with what you are seeking. Just my opinion.
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