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  • #9,321
  • Jul 14, 2022 3:38am Jul 14, 2022 3:38am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} there is no function in metatrader to turn a limit into a market order. Only stop orders become a market order and are subject to slippage.
That is not true, not even close. It is very common practive to turn a limit order into a market order when price is reached. That I have been told on IC Markets, too.
  • #9,322
  • Jul 14, 2022 3:39am Jul 14, 2022 3:39am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} In MFF I notice that I get no slippage when opening order up to 4.5 lots hitting the buy / sell bottom (more than 4.5 lots I get slippage). But then I almost always close positions with TP/SL and it's rare not to have 2 or 3 pips slippage. If I remember well the guys in MFF said once in discord that they were applying simulated slippage in demo accounts according with the order book of several liquidity providers at the time of the trade.

this is tiered slippage. Usually a LP will say "We will give you X top of the book" and you tier your pricing that way. The problem with top of the book liquidity is it is generally the thinnest. High depth liquidity doesn't come with 0 or 0.1 spread on eur/usd it is usually somewhere around 0.5. Thats where the slippage comes from. If retail traders knew the actual cost of trading in the real market, they would probably all pack their bags and switch to binary options.
  • #9,323
  • Jul 14, 2022 3:40am Jul 14, 2022 3:40am
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} That is not true, not even close. It is very common practive to turn a limit order into a market order when price is reached. That I have been told on IC Markets, too.

I have a metatrader server terminal on my desktop right now (MT5) from my consultancy gig for a broker that shall not be named. Unless you put a plugin in, which is not metatrader its a plugin that you put on the server, you cannot turn a limit order into a market order and metatrader has NEVER treated limits as a market order, only stop orders are treated as a last to execute market order.

Perhaps there is terminology confusion and you are referring to pending stop orders?
  • #9,324
  • Jul 14, 2022 3:41am Jul 14, 2022 3:41am
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  • #9,325
  • Edited 4:10am Jul 14, 2022 3:59am | Edited 4:10am
Quoting Capablanca
For SL I can understand that we get slippage because a stop loss in other brokers is just that. ... But for TP I don't understand why I get slippage. I'm saying that I only sell/buy at X so I should make it at X or better so either I can be served or the order should stay dormant until I can be served at X
-I cannot speak about a lot of this, actually, but if I had to guess, I would say that all orders are treated as market-taker orders else you could end up with partial fills. I do not believe that I have seen metatrader support that. Maybe Takisd can verify, but I would guess that when trading through a broker/firm, that all orders are getting passed through as market orders once triggered in metatrader in lieu of actually being placed on an exchange (or whatever) beforehand. I am really out of my element with this, so I could be way off.
  • #9,326
  • Jul 14, 2022 4:10am Jul 14, 2022 4:10am
So I spoke to the guys who run ICMarkets desk.

They don't have partials enabled thats why they slip negatively on limits. Depending on the product there could be only 1 lot available at that price, so if you have 99 other lots to execute you will slip till its executed. Its not a standard set up because its not really a limit order if you aren't partial filling. Its funny though, i spoke to icmarkets support as well, and they explanation was rat brained they didn't know what they were talking about and suggested that that is what a limit order is (it isn't). A limit order should chip off pieces of the order as it gets filled based on the order book. If there is no orderbook where the order is actually sitting, it would be filled negatively to force the fill. The question is which is better, getting only 1 lot of your 100 lot order or getting all 100 lots but at a worse price?

MT5 was built to have things like partials and fill or kill, not sure why they are purposely dodging it.

Edit: I want to say sorry Trandy, you were right about ICMarkets. I am going to probe MFF now but I did speak to them last night and they said it shouldnt be happening.

Edit of edit: ICmarkets top of book is always 1 lot. So anything above 1 lot will always slip on limit at icmarkets. I assume they are spread pumping the 1 lot to keep the spread low.
  • #9,327
  • Jul 14, 2022 4:13am Jul 14, 2022 4:13am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-I cannot speak about a lot of this, actually, but if I had to guess, I would say that all orders are treated as market-taker orders else you could end up with partial fills. I do not believe that I have seen metatrader support that. Maybe Takisd can verify, but I would guess that when trading through a broker/firm, that all orders are getting passed through as market orders once triggered in metatrader in lieu of actually being placed on an exchange (or whatever) beforehand. I am really out of my element with this, so I could be way off....

So same as post above. Some companies don't have partial enabled so it fills best at. My interpretation is because customers dont understand why their tp isn't completely filled at best price so they just fill the entire tp to get it closed as best they can. Its a very strange practice but I can sort of understand why you would do it given the way the trading community behaves when they experience proper conditions.
  • #9,328
  • Jul 14, 2022 4:21am Jul 14, 2022 4:21am
Quoting Takisd
So same as post above.
-Makes sense. Thanks for clarifying. I suppose that partial fills could also not be possible when a broker/firm is not actually pushing trades to market.
  • #9,329
  • Jul 14, 2022 4:24am Jul 14, 2022 4:24am
Quoting Takisd
So I spoke to the guys who run ICMarkets desk. They don't have partials enabled thats why they slip negatively on limits. Depending on the product there could be only 1 lot available at that price, so if you have 99 other lots to execute you will slip till its executed. Its not a standard set up because its not really a limit order if you aren't partial filling. Its funny though, i spoke to icmarkets support as well, and they explanation was rat brained they didn't know what they were talking about and suggested that that is what a limit order is...
Any decent broker has the 4 basic order: market, limit, stop market and stop limit (if we go to a broker like interactive brokers than we have dozens of order types).

What you just described, even for a TP, seems a stop market order. The order is triggered as stop and is triggered as limit executed as market. That is subject to slippage.
A limit order in a normal broker would just leave parte of the order unexecuted until liquidity is available (or until the remaining order was canceled).
  • #9,330
  • Jul 14, 2022 4:24am Jul 14, 2022 4:24am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Makes sense. Thanks for clarifying. I suppose that partial fills could also not be possible when a broker/firm is not actually pushing trades to market.

Its possible but the backlash would be so bad from the retail trader. Thats the feedback im getting from the retail folks and MFF. They have to do that because if a guys tp only partially 1 lot on a 50 lot trade the guy would say they are scamming them so at liquidity they hit market with a market order on the limit and then adjust the mt4/5.

Learn something new every day.
  • #9,331
  • Jul 14, 2022 4:25am Jul 14, 2022 4:25am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Any decent broker has the 4 basic order: market, limit, stop market and stop limit (if we go to a broker like interactive brokers than we have dozens of order types). What you just described, even for a TP, seems a stop market order. The order is triggered as stop and is triggered as limit. That is subject to slippage. A limit order in a normal broker would just leave parte of the order unexecuted until liquidity is available (or until the remaining order was canceled).
my brain is now going to discords around the industry when people get partials on their tps. It would be a meme come true.
  • #9,332
  • Jul 14, 2022 4:26am Jul 14, 2022 4:26am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} So same as post above. Some companies don't have partial enabled so it fills best at. My interpretation is because customers dont understand why their tp isn't completely filled at best price so they just fill the entire tp to get it closed as best they can. Its a very strange practice but I can sort of understand why you would do it given the way the trading community behaves when they experience proper conditions.
This explanation makes sense. If now chats are already so bad with non sense claims, imagine what would be with partial fills.
Furthermore in demo accounts would be always tricky to access liquidity.
  • #9,333
  • Jul 14, 2022 4:31am Jul 14, 2022 4:31am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} This explanation makes sense. If now chats are already so bad with non sense claims, imagine what would be with partial fills. Furthermore in demo accounts would be always tricky to access liquidity.
You can use an orderbook on demo with a bridge just the bridge doesn't send the order to market it just pretends it did. It probably has a slightly better fill with that solution but again it would be the funniest thing to watch prop traders experience real conditions.
  • #9,334
  • Jul 14, 2022 4:35am Jul 14, 2022 4:35am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} You can use an orderbook on demo with a bridge just the bridge doesn't send the order to market it just pretends it did. It probably has a slightly better fill with that solution but again it would be the funniest thing to watch prop traders experience real conditions.
I agree. But that would be just taking the order of the trader vs the liquidity while in market conditions is the order of 100 traders vs the same liquidity
I edited my previous post because I had write something wrong
  • #9,335
  • Jul 14, 2022 4:41am Jul 14, 2022 4:41am
this whole thing Trandy brought me up has my spectrum firing and I checked my FTMO MFF (we already know its happening there), TFTP and finotive accounts. Its happening on all of them.

In all my years I have never had anything but partial or reject and now i see slippage on my tps haha. The slippage is minimal but just interesting to see it.
  • #9,336
  • Jul 14, 2022 4:41am Jul 14, 2022 4:41am
Quoting Takisd
Its possible but the backlash would be so bad from the retail trader. Thats the feedback im getting from the retail folks and MFF. They have to do that because if a guys tp only partially 1 lot on a 50 lot trade the guy would say they are scamming them so at liquidity they hit market with a market order on the limit and then adjust the mt4/5. Learn something new every day.
-I suppose that in the case of prop firms that are keeping most traders on demo, but employing some sort of simulated slippage, that they would be better off to treat limit orders as market orders else traders could circumvent slippage even when trading massive lot sizes without worrying about partial fills. It also makes sense for the other reasons that you stated.

Quoting Takisd
I am going to probe MFF now but I did speak to them last night and they said it shouldnt be happening.
-I would be curious about how MFF would handle this, though. It was my understanding that they did not want traders straddling news events and made adjustments to simulate real-world slippage to deter the practice. But wouldn't non-market limit orders still allow for it? Probably best to just treat them all as market-type orders and apply slippage, as you say.
  • #9,337
  • Jul 14, 2022 4:57am Jul 14, 2022 4:57am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-I suppose that in the case of prop firms that are keeping most traders on demo, but employing some sort of simulated slippage, that they would be better off to treat limit orders as market orders else traders could circumvent slippage even when trading massive lot sizes without worrying about partial fills. It also makes sense for the other reasons that you stated. {quote}-I would be curious about how MFF would handle this, though. It was my understanding that they did not want traders straddling news events and made adjustments to simulate...

They told me they can't guarantee limits due to cheaters and they can't partial fill due to people not understanding what a partial is. I also see a lot of people crapping on ftmo about slippage lately. It seems that the slippage complaints are popping up about every single firm.
  • #9,338
  • Jul 14, 2022 5:17am Jul 14, 2022 5:17am
Quoting Takisd
They told me they can't guarantee limits due to cheaters and they can't partial fill due to people not understanding what a partial is.
-Right. That all makes sense. I think that if most traders are trading heavy lot sizes, which is probably the case given the statistics, then these firms should have some slippage applied to simulate real conditions. It would be a bad business move if they did not, and I would question their decisions, actually. If we are being objective, I could see a scenario where this could also be abused by a firm, though. And since most of these traders have not a clue, makes it even easier.
  • #9,339
  • Jul 14, 2022 5:35am Jul 14, 2022 5:35am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Right. That all makes sense. I think that if most traders are trading heavy lot sizes, which is probably the case given the statistics, then these firms should have some slippage applied to simulate real conditions. It would be a bad business move if they did not, and I would question their decisions, actually. If we are being objective, I could see a scenario where this could also be abused by a firm, though. And since most of these traders have not a clue, makes it even easier.
I dont think any of these firms have mechanisms for manipulation other than switching the server/feed off. The larger ones are too big for server plugins without causing huge crash risk and the smaller ones dont have the resources/brains to do it without dying the next day. Gone are the days of virtual dealer plugin. The real truth is, if you give real market conditions most folks have no edge that is sustained. My edge for example, died whilst I was unwell but came back with the inflation volatility, but could go again tomorrow. At some point im going to lose my account and thats with less slippage that I would expect on real market conditions for the size I trade. I can imagine if all these people trading those instagrammers signsl trades were executed, the chart will look amazing spikes everywhere like a pump and dump.
  • #9,340
  • Jul 14, 2022 6:00am Jul 14, 2022 6:00am
Quoting Takisd
I dont think any of these firms have mechanisms for manipulation other than switching the server/feed off.
-Oh, okay. I just assumed that MFF, for example, were able to set the slippage amounts based on lot size etc. for their simulated accounts.
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