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  • #8,981
  • Edited 1:40pm Jul 3, 2022 1:27pm | Edited 1:40pm
Quoting symmtrytradr
{quote} FundedTradingPlus has an experienced program which has 6% max dd with 10% target but is only 1 stage. DD sounds negative but actually in a scenario where you risk 10% of max dd per trade to make, lets say, 5:1 reward:risk - it ends up you need 3.33 net winning days to pass. On other 2 stage challenges with this same scenario you need 2 new winning days in stage 1 and 1 in stage 2 = 3 net winning days. It ends up being very similar, and having 1 stage may have advantages with letting winners run instead of breaking up into 2 stages which...
Do not pay attention to scaling models where you cannot witdraw your profits. Because on every 10% you need to make you could easily compound and make more on your own personal account. Just to make an example where is the breakeven. When you have 10% maxDD you only need to make ca.7%, where you should have the double amount. It is all based on Euler figure. Only the built-in scaling models one can compare, where you grow automatically with payouts everytime included. Just to mention the fastest and easiest scaling model is with TPT (The Prop Trader), where you can have unlimited 500k accounts when you trade them seperately (no same symbol open position on every account at TPT for XXX accounts). Otherwise the promise of TFT with unlimited scaling is looking good, but I would judge more on score, because it is much more diffcult to hold funded accounts over many payout cycles and make profits consistently and everytime you fail, all starts from the beginning.
  • #8,982
  • Jul 3, 2022 1:40pm Jul 3, 2022 1:40pm
I think it is very important to take into account the spreads and commissions.

This is how brokers make their money. They are not rely on failed challenges, they just want people to trade as much as possible.

So most Prop Firm also are making big money on spreads and commissions - also quite happy to welcome scalpers.

Take example E8 have 500 scalpers trading Gold each day. Say each one trade 100 lots a day. That is 100x500x9 = $45000 per day + "X" for spread commission

Now you can see why they don't need to worry too much on make money from failed challenges
  • #8,983
  • Edited 2:02pm Jul 3, 2022 1:49pm | Edited 2:02pm
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} Do not pay attention to scaling models where you cannot witdraw your profits. Because on every 10% you need to make you could easily compound and make more on your own personal account. Just to make an example where is the breakeven. When you have 10% maxDD you only need to make ca.7%, where you should have the double amount. It is all based on Euler figure. Only the built-in scaling models one can compare, where you grow automatically with payouts everytime included. Just to mention the fastest and easiest scaling model is with TPT (The...


To my understanding you can withdraw profits as well - so If you reach for example 17% profit on 100k account goes to 117k and ask to scale, the new account is 217k with max dd fixed at account equity of 200k (so if you don't withdraw, you start with 217k with max dd of 17k). You can withdraw 9k and trade with 208k account. The max dd will still be 200k equity so your dd buffer is less (8k max dd if you start at 208k). To reach the next scaling though you need to reach 10% of 200k independent of profit from previous stage. So 20k profit target starting on the 208k account is 228k in this scenario to reach next scale to 400k. I had a chat with thier support and this is what they told me. The scaling is based on when you ask it is not automatic when you reach 10%, so its on your schedule, and you can withdraw before scaling.

My thought is this really only makes sense if you have other accounts first that you take withdrawals from for cash flow, and this type of account is to scale up to the max without withdrawing. For example E8 300k account or TFT rapid 500k account for cash flow because profits are added back after you withdraw. Then having an account like FundedTraderPlus which is solely for scaling to get to 2.5 million in maybe 6-8 months (obviously can take longer and many factors) without withdrawing to reach 2.5m with around 10% dd. Or withdrawing a small amount while scaling and take longer. So after a year or whatever if reach 2.5m scaling, can start withdrawing profits on scaled account, this being in addition to a cash flow account like E8 or something.
Plan your trade, trade your plan
  • #8,984
  • Edited 2:03pm Jul 3, 2022 1:51pm | Edited 2:03pm
Quoting Bizziebee
I think it is very important to take into account the spreads and commissions. This is how brokers make their money. They are not rely on failed challenges, they just want people to trade as much as possible. So most Prop Firm also are making big money on spreads and commissions - also quite happy to welcome scalpers. Take example E8 have 500 scalpers trading Gold each day. Say each one trade 100 lots a day. That is 100x500x9 = $45000 per day + "X" for spread commission Now you can see why they don't need to worry too much on make money from failed...
Already made a small table for that. I assume you are also a daytrader (or scalper), because for swing traders it is not that important doing much less trades and thus paying not much for the spreads on the trades in sum. FTMO is best, with TFF on par I would say. Then comes MFF, then TFT. TPT is bit worse and BlueG is again worse.
One thing to be added here, about slippage. Avoid orders above 3 lots, when you trade more then split your order among smaller trades, valid for all props I guess.
  • #8,985
  • Jul 3, 2022 3:10pm Jul 3, 2022 3:10pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Yep, the 14th day will be today, July 3rd. Tomorrow, 4th you can't trade. They will be processing the payout. Hopefully you will receive the payout on 4th and credentials early on the 5th. Would be nice to keep us posted, so that we see if things are still running the same way. With this outdated process I fear that if they grow they won't have manually/human capacity to process payouts quickly. Regarding Deel, yep, they will send you the contract. You should approve it quickly to avoid delays and that's it. Don't have to bother with anything...
I'll definitely keep everyone posted
Pride always comes before destruction.... -Proverbs 16:18
  • #8,986
  • Jul 3, 2022 3:28pm Jul 3, 2022 3:28pm
Quoting Bizziebee
{quote} Thank you. Is very good but as Navk said, people need to take into account trading conditions. For instance, 60% or more traders are mainly trading Gold. E8 are very poor for spread and charging over $9 commission per lot which is more then bad. It is a rip-off. Reason of course is to make big profits from traders at Funded stage. Good for E8 but very bad for scalpers
On forex I think it's a little bit less than 9. To my understanding (tomorrow I can confirm this) this guys have some kind of different cost structure.
They charge upfront 0.005% on the USD amount of the trade.
GPBUSD @1.2200 would be 6.10 USD commission
EURUSD @1.0400 would be 5.20 USD commission

At least this is what I investigated until I figured out what the hell were they charging. I'm not 100% sure (this is from my excel spreadsheet) but tomorrow I can confirm.

TrAndy1, thank you so much for sharing all that work. It's a great list that give us, in a nutshell, the full picture of the props.
  • #8,987
  • Jul 3, 2022 4:01pm Jul 3, 2022 4:01pm
Quoting symmtrytradr
Attached is a breakdown of a few firms and their max allocation/scaling plans compared, if useful for anyone looking at options to scale. Let me know if anything missing or incorrect. Thanks {image}
Thanks for sharing this. It's also nice information to have in a glance.
On The Prop Trading is worth to mention that we can't withdraw during those 3 months. Withdraw can be done only after being scaled (and a new cycle of 3 months restart)
  • #8,988
  • Jul 3, 2022 4:25pm Jul 3, 2022 4:25pm
Quoting symmtrytradr
Attached is a breakdown of a few firms and their max allocation/scaling plans compared, if useful for anyone looking at options to scale. Let me know if anything missing or incorrect. Thanks {image}
Just a question, where did you hear or read that the scaling plan for FTMO and TFF is per strategy and not per trader ? I have never heard that one can have more than 400k max funds on FTMO, same on TFF. When you say per strategy you could have several 400k accounts at FTMO and TFF, are you sure ? Any written info from their support here ? Is that per strategy meant the same with TPT, do you know that ? The two on left side of your graph you can forget. FT+ and TCF are not favorable, it would be better to do own compounding on own personal live accounts at the broker. In case FTMO and TFF is per strategy like TPT then I could imagine new options on maxing out. Then TFF is the best option here with the highest score and excellent trading conditions. It would be better than FTMO or TPT scaling. Please tell us more.
  • #8,989
  • Jul 3, 2022 4:40pm Jul 3, 2022 4:40pm
Quoting symmtrytradr
{quote} To my understanding you can withdraw profits as well - so If you reach for example 17% profit on 100k account goes to 117k and ask to scale, the new account is 217k with max dd fixed at account equity of 200k (so if you don't withdraw, you start with 217k with max dd of 17k). You can withdraw 9k and trade with 208k account. The max dd will still be 200k equity so your dd buffer is less (8k max dd if you start at 208k). To reach the next scaling though you need to reach 10% of 200k independent of profit from previous stage. So 20k profit...
It has been already discussed here in this thread. On FT+ scaling plan, you are missing, once you reach your profit target, your new Drawdown is set at the intial balance. So if you withdrew all of your profits then your account is automatically closed, because there is no room for any floating loss or DD. They have it already confirmed it to me in support chat. Second, any compounding on personal account would get you more profit when taking out of prop account then scaling there.
  • #8,990
  • Jul 3, 2022 4:42pm Jul 3, 2022 4:42pm
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} Just a question, where did you hear or read that the scaling plan for FTMO and TFF is per strategy and not per trader ? I have never heard that one can have more than 400k max funds on FTMO, same on TFF. When you say per strategy you could have several 400k accounts at FTMO and TFF, are you sure ? Any written info from their support here ? Is that per strategy meant the same with TPT, do you know that ? The two on left side of your graph you can forget. FT+ and TCF are not favorable, it would be better to do own compounding on own personal...

Per FTMO website (https://ftmo.com/en/faq/how-many-accounts-can-i-have/):

"We do not place any limit on the number of trading accounts you can have in the FTMO Challenge and Verification. However, we have a maximum capital allocation of $400,000 (on Normal risk setup, prior to scaling)per trader or strategy, at any given time (or $200,000 for the Aggressive risk setup) for any FTMO Account which is connected to our Proprietary Trading Firm."

Secondly, I remember watching an ftmo interview a while back and a trader mentioned he had about 6 different accounts with his trading robot - but This alone cannot be used to prove. The website does say per trader or strategy.

Per True Forex Fund website: (https://trueforexfunds.com/assistanc...ximum-capital/)

"We can allow as much as $400,000 per trader or strategy, at any given time for any Funded Account."

I will confirm with their support but it also says per trader or strategy which is why I assume you can trade multiple strategies similar to the prop trading.
Plan your trade, trade your plan
  • #8,991
  • Jul 3, 2022 4:44pm Jul 3, 2022 4:44pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Thanks for sharing this. It's also nice information to have in a glance. On The Prop Trading is worth to mention that we can't withdraw during those 3 months. Withdraw can be done only after being scaled (and a new cycle of 3 months restart)

Yes great point and important consideration as that differs from other firms which allow scaling despite withdrawal.
Plan your trade, trade your plan
  • #8,992
  • Jul 3, 2022 4:51pm Jul 3, 2022 4:51pm
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} It has been already discussed here in this thread. On FT+ scaling plan, you are missing, once you reach your profit target, your new Drawdown is set at the intial balance. So if you withdrew all of your profits then your account is automatically closed, because there is no room for any floating loss or DD. They have it already confirmed it to me in support chat. Second, any compounding on personal account would get you more profit when taking out of prop account then scaling there.


Yes thats correct, that's why I gave the example of reaching above 17% profit and withdrawing the surplus. The scaling is based on our discretion so if you wait to reach 17% profit on the account, you can choose to take out 7% or 9% or whatever and leave the rest as buffer dd for the next stage. So a 100k account that you bring to 117k and ask for scaling - you can tell them you want to withdraw 7k and leave 10k (or withdraw 5k and leave 12k, whatever you want) as dd buffer so the scaled account will be 210k with a fixed dd at 200k, and a min. target of 230k to reach next scale to 400k (10% of 200k account independent of profit withdrawal/left as buffer). Is my understanding correct?

If this is the case I still think it's work it in my opinon as an additional account to some other cash flow account(s) with the purpose of scaling to 2.5M quicker than with other firms. If you start with 200k it takes 4 stages. If you don't withdraw and it takes you 2 months to reach 10%, you could be at 2.5M in 8 months.
Plan your trade, trade your plan
  • #8,993
  • Edited 9:39pm Jul 3, 2022 8:19pm | Edited 9:39pm
Quoting Takisd
FTMO's marketing team need to be fired. Not only are they doing the overkill thing, but they are also just bad at their job. DO better be better. Also, i find it interesting that everyone apart from ftmo are publicly stating withdrawal figures lately. FTMO keep that a secret, I wonder if its because the number isn't as high as people think? Hmm.. The only reason not to publish that info is if its bad not good. Unless they post it and I missed it?
They probably feel It's bad marketing to publicly show that their main competition MFF has surpassed them in monthly payouts since late last year after dominating for years.
  • #8,994
  • Edited 9:28pm Jul 3, 2022 9:16pm | Edited 9:28pm
Quoting Bizziebee
I think it is very important to take into account the spreads and commissions. This is how brokers make their money. They are not rely on failed challenges, they just want people to trade as much as possible. So most Prop Firm also are making big money on spreads and commissions - also quite happy to welcome scalpers. Take example E8 have 500 scalpers trading Gold each day. Say each one trade 100 lots a day. That is 100x500x9 = $45000 per day + "X" for spread commission Now you can see why they don't need to worry too much on make money from failed...
With a broker commissions transfer your capital on deposit to the broker.

With a prop firm (challenge model) 99%-99.5% blow their accounts before 1st payout... you have no capital on deposit at the firm, the commissions made are phantom paper profits.
  • #8,995
  • Jul 3, 2022 9:33pm Jul 3, 2022 9:33pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} On MFF I've been experiencing slippage above 4.5 lots. If I make 5 lots I get slippage. If I do 4.5 lots no slippage. It can't be a coincidence. I tested this multiple times, all with same result. And this happens, both in funded and in challenges. And both in 100K and 200K. Not sure if this is general setting or if they have parameters of slippage account driven. I've been keeping it under 4.5. If I want 6 lots I just trade 3+3 or any other combination instead of 6.
I use an order entry EA that can auto split orders by your preference. Do you think a 50 lot order spit by 12 would have the same results?
  • #8,996
  • Jul 3, 2022 11:51pm Jul 3, 2022 11:51pm
Quoting TrAndy1
Was thinking about how FTMO do copy trades or even do reverse copy trades. The main statistical figure that makes sense from the beginning where to look at is the E-Ratio. Edge Ratio or E-Ratio measures how much a trade goes in your favor vs. how much a trade goes against you. So they only need to look for that equation MAX E-ratio=MFE/MAE. The meaning is, if you enter a trade it goes at once in your direction without drawdown the higher you could leverage it and less risk you have, and then when you exit without giving anything or too much of your...
FTMO has mentioned that they selectively copy trades based on their own risk algorithm.

Refer to the last few pages on their dedicated thread.

I'm quite sure they would apply something very similar to what you have mentioned.

Ofcourse they are not likely to provide full details but that's ok.

Experience with copying trades would yield plenty of useful info here because if you get it wrong it can cost you dearly.

Masterrmind..............
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #8,997
  • Jul 4, 2022 12:29am Jul 4, 2022 12:29am
Quoting HengkiTjen
What kind of software can I use this copy trade ?
-There are many available; some free, some paid, some client-based and some server-based. A few examples: Social Trader Tools, FX Blue, Local Trade Copier etc.. You can search google for more.

Quoting navk
I trade in MFF, TFF. These are mt4. To prop trading, I can not copy from MFF, TFF trades and I guess it is prohibited. If Prop trading has mt4, then i can trade in mt4 and then copy to mt5. Hope i explained correctly.
-I am not too knowledgeable regarding the technical side of things and about what is currently possible. However, I suppose that you could always have a side-by-side view of the two metatraders open, depending on what you are needing MT4 for.

Quoting CableJ
I use an order entry EA that can auto split orders by your preference. Do you think a 50 lot order spit by 12 would have the same results?
-That's very interesting. I suppose that I might be concerned that using something like this could get my account banned, however, on the grounds that I would be taking advantage of unrealistic trading conditions by exploiting their fixed, simulated slippage thresholds and completely eliminating slippage by using automated tools.

Presumably, the EA can execute all of the trades at the same time or close to it? If so, then slippage could still occur in a real trading environment if so many trades were executed all within the same block, whereas, if the slippage is being simulated with a 3-lot threshold or similar, then you could easily circumvent that, which would likely be frowned upon by any firm that employs such measures. I can only speculate, though.

Quoting TrAndy1
Do not pay attention to scaling models where you cannot witdraw your profits. Because on every 10% you need to make you could easily compound and make more on your own personal account.
-I don't know. I think that it might depend on the person and their goals. For example, depending on the model, some firms that allow you to artificially scale your account can actually serve a positive purpose for a trader that is looking for larger, daily draw-down allowance (e.g. in a case where a trader wants to trade a fun account with higher risk). The ability to have (or be able to grow) a buffer, can be very valuable in such cases.

But your point still stands regarding trading your own account. I get that. I suppose that any trader that wants to continue trading their own account can still do so, regardless of the model or what is being offered, though.

Quoting symmtrytradr
FundedTradingPlus has an experienced program which has 6% max dd with 10% target but is only 1 stage.
-If I remember correctly, this was structured similarly to Ment. I have seen other firms that seem to be white-labeling under the same backer. They have the 1-step program with fees that are a lot higher (and non-refundable), as well as the sneaky withdrawal process that can eat into your draw-down and actually cause you to violate your account!!! --due to an initial trailing draw-down that ensures zero-risk to the firm as soon as possible.

If it's the same, I would stay away just out of principle.
  • #8,998
  • Jul 4, 2022 1:02am Jul 4, 2022 1:02am
Quoting CableJ
{quote} They probably feel It's bad marketing to publicly show that their main competition MFF has surpassed them in monthly payouts since late last year after dominating for years.
No ideia if that would flag your behavior as "unproperly"
Worth to mention that I usually keep my total exposure in 200K account or challenges under 10/12 lots, most of the time less that that, and I always start a trade manually clicking buy or sell, at the market.
That's why I realize the no slippage if I use 4.5 or under. I've seen a lot of times the bid/ask and what price I got.
To exit positions I use almost always TP and SL and same pattern. Under 4.5 I get no slippage. 5 or more I see slippage.
  • #8,999
  • Jul 4, 2022 1:06am Jul 4, 2022 1:06am
Quoting symmtrytradr
{quote} Per FTMO website (https://ftmo.com/en/faq/how-many-accounts-can-i-have/): "We do not place any limit on the number of trading accounts you can have in the FTMO Challenge and Verification. However, we have a maximum capital allocation of $400,000 (on Normal risk setup, prior to scaling)per trader or strategy, at any given time (or $200,000 for the Aggressive risk setup) for any FTMO Account which is connected to our Proprietary Trading Firm." Secondly, I remember watching an ftmo interview a while back and a trader mentioned he...
I wonder what do they refer by strategy and how do they control it
  • #9,000
  • Jul 4, 2022 1:10am Jul 4, 2022 1:10am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-There are many available; some free, some paid, some client-based and some server-based. A few examples: Social Trader Tools, FX Blue, Local Trade Copier etc.. You can search google for more. {quote}-I am not too knowledgeable regarding the technical side of things and about what is currently possible. However, I suppose that you could always have a side-by-side view of the two metatraders open, depending on what you are needing MT4 for. {quote}-That's very interesting. I suppose that I might be concerned that using something like this could...

The model is different then Ment. Ment doesn't offer scaling like ft+, their scaling is just increasing max lot size, they are also more expensive and lower available leverage. They do have 1 million evaluation and you can trade multiple accounts up to 2 million. I haven't seen anything about the hidden withdrawal rules but overall doesn't look good in my opinion.
Plan your trade, trade your plan
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